{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/z60bv7bj5w/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Frank Wu Oral History"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003e\u003cspan\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eFrank Wu is the president designee of Queens College. In part 1 of this interview he talks about growing up in Detroit, as the child of Asian immigrants. He discusses what he sees as an awkward role reversal of helping his parents assimilate, while he just wanted to be like any other kid. He talks about the  murder of Vincent Chin as a turning point for him. It made him realize you can't just ignore racism, but have to confront it. That was what led him to become a writer, lawyer and advocate. He also dicusses his experience starting his work at Queens College just as Covid-19 became pandemic.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eIn part 2 of his interview, he continues discussing the Covid-19 pandemic and the increased guilt by association and anti-Asian bias that Asian Americans now face. He also discusses his personal experiences during the pandemic and the challenges of taking on a leadership role at Queens College during this crisis.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Interview conducted as part of the Queens Memory COVID-19 Project."]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (Primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["1960s-2020 (temporal)","Detroit, Michigan; San Francisco, California and Queens, NY (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2020-04-14 (created)","2020-04-23 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Frank Wu (Interviewee)","Obden Mondesir (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Audio"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["http://digitalarchives.queenslibrary.org/search/browse/44689"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-size: 11.0pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;\"\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eFrank Wu is the president designee of Queens College. In part 1 of this interview he talks about growing up in Detroit, as the child of Asian immigrants. He discusses what he sees as an awkward role reversal of helping his parents assimilate, while he just wanted to be like any other kid. He talks about the\u0026nbsp; murder of Vincent Chin as a turning point for him. It made him realize you can't just ignore racism, but have to confront it. That was what led him to become a writer, lawyer and advocate. He also dicusses his experience starting his work at Queens College just as Covid-19 became pandemic.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eIn part 2 of his interview, he continues discussing the Covid-19 pandemic and the increased guilt by association and anti-Asian bias that Asian Americans now face. He also discusses his personal experiences during the pandemic and the challenges of taking on a leadership role at Queens College during this crisis.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/090/575/small/Headshot2015_Wuaviary.jpg?1590574098","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 2 - Wu_Frank_20200414mp3.mp3"]},"duration":3700.1925,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/090/575/small/Headshot2015_Wuaviary.jpg?1590574098","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/090/575/original/Wu_Frank_20200414mp3.mp3?1590573684","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":3700.1925,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Full Interview Transcript - April 14, 2020 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSpeaker:\u003c/strong\u003e This call is now being recorded.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=0.27,3.72"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e So today's day is April 14, 2020. My name is Obden Mondesir. I am collecting this oral history on the behalf of the Queen College Special Collections and Archives, and Queens Memory for the COVID-19 Oral History Project. And I am with-- Frank, uh this--?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=3.72,29.39"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Frank, oh sir. Yeah, my turn to talk. Hi, I'm Frank Wu and I am going to start as President at Queens College.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=29.39,44.28"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e And could you tell me the year you were born?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=44.28,48.31"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Sure. I was born in 1967. My parents were born in China. They went to Taiwan and then they came to the United States in the early 1960s as graduate students. That was in a bygone era when America was opening its doors and it welcomed people from the world over because it was in the American national interest to become strong. America was competing with the Soviet Union. It had had the Sputnik moment when the Soviets launched a satellite into space before the United States, and that was symbolic. It suggested that perhaps communism would defeat democracy, and so the United States wanted to play catch up and then surpass its rival during the Cold War. So part of that was to build upon American strength in sciences, what we now call STEM fields: science, technology, engineering and math. So if you were a talented student from someplace else in the world, you could actually come to the United States and they would even give you a scholarship. So that's how my parents ended up here. I owe my existence to American higher education.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=48.31,137.25"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e And what school were your parents graduate students at?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=137.25,142.32"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e My parents met in Cleveland, Ohio in the Midwest. My mother attended Western Reserve and my father went to Case Institute of Technology. I was born in Cleveland, but when I was a toddler, I was very young, we moved to Detroit, the Motor City, so I consider that my hometown. My father earned his doctorate in engineering. He was a mechanical engineer and he went to work at Ford Motor Company, one of the major automakers, and it was a time when Detroit was the fourth largest city in the United States, a genuine rival to Chicago. It was the birthplace of modern manufacturing and despite the 1967 riots, it was still regarded as a leading American city. So my father had the dream job. It was the type of job you could expect to hold for wife at a an American manufacturing company in a industry that was iconic and America was dominant. Everyone the world over wanted an American car that signaled not only your own success, but that your entire nation had made it if the president or prime minister had a Lincoln or a Cadillac.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=142.32,231.7"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Wow. And could you tell me, describe the first house you lived in in Detroit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=231.7,243.94"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e We lived in various suburbs of Detroit. Detroit was already highly racially segregated. It became, during my childhood, statistically the most racially segregated American city. It's hard for people to remember this now. You'd have to be at least my age, you have to be at least 50 years old to have any recollection of this. But Detroit was once not only a leading city, but also predominantly white and middle class. But it exemplified the deindustrialization of the Rust Belt and white flight, so now Detroit is overwhelmingly black and quite impoverished. We lived in several different suburbs, starting with Dearborn, that's where Ford World Headquarters is, and then Livonia, and Northville, and finally Canton. Each of these places has an interesting story. Dearborn had one of the leading notorious northern racial segregationist mayors. We sometimes think of racial segregation and Jim Crow as a southern phenomena, but the truth is, if you take a look at the era, both just before and just after the Civil Rights Act passed, that's 1964, and the Fair Housing Act, that's 1968; if you take a look at, you'll see that northern cities were highly segregated as well. And Detroit exemplified that. Dearborn had a mayor named Orville Hubbard, and he was open in saying that the races should be separate. He also used what today is called \"dog-whistle politics,\" coded language. He had a slogan. The slogan was \"Keep Dearborn Clean\" and he wasn't talking about hygiene and litter. He was talking about keep black people out. Dearborn was directly adjacent to Detroit and it was overwhelmingly white and stayed that way. The irony is, over time, over the generation after Mayor Hubbard was in office — he was one of those dominant figures in local politics who's reelected again and again —  Dearborn became the most heavily Arab American part of the United States because, while Mayor Hubbard was busy trying to keep African-Americans out, people of Arab ancestry were moving in, and so Dearborn was transformed, nonetheless. We also lived in a place called Livonia —I didn't know this then, I was just a kid — but later in doing some research about the Detroit metropolitan area, I came across some census statistics. And in the 1970s of cities with population over one hundred thousand, Livonia was the whitest of them. There were basically no black people in Livonia at all, and a handful of people of Asian descent or Hispanic background. That was very common for, not just Detroit suburbs, but for many northern suburbs. There was a nearby area called Inkster that had many African-American auto workers. You know, Detroit didn't just attract people who were migrants from around the world. It also attracted the Great Migration. So many African-Americans left the plantations in fields of the South and came to work for higher wages in the factories of the North. Finally, when I was in high school, I lived in Canton, Michigan. In Canton, it's an interesting place, I always wondered, as a kid, why is this town — which was half cornfields, still, now entirely developed but when I was in high school, across the street were cornfields, and all around us were cornfields — I wondered why is it called Canton, as in Canton, China, Guangdong? So if you research it, you'll find that in the 1850s there was a crazy fad, you know, just one of those things that suddenly becomes popular and then it stops and people forget about it, but it leaves the fact there's a crazy trend throughout America to name towns in America for cities in China. So Canton, Ohio, which is where the Football Hall of Fame is, it's the most famous Canton or Cantön, but if you take a look, there are Peking, Nanking, and other American towns throughout the Midwest, all of them founded in the same time period that the townsfolk fancifully thought, \"Well, on the other side of the globe, there's a Chinese city. Let's name American city in the same way.\" I'll tell you a little bit about what it was like growing up as the child of Asian immigrants in the Midwest in the 1970s. We were the only Oriental family. That term was still in use, connoting a certain exoticism more appropriate for rugs than for people. And so, you know, I grew up with the common cruelty of childhood, the teasing and taunting of the playground, being called chink and Jap and gook, being asked if my parents were Communists, if I ate dogs, how I could see with eyes like that, when I was going back home, being told, \"My, you speak English so well,\" and just always knowing this was back before diversity was celebrated. So difference was not good. You were expected to assimilate and that was to a White standard. You were expected to fit in or else. And as a kid, you know, I-- I'm ashamed to admit this now, but I was embarrassed of my parents and all kids are embarrassed of their parents at some point. But if you're a member of a minority group, it's different because the message that you're being sent by everyone, by your peers at school, your playmates, by the teachers, by your neighbors — is there something wrong? Is there something not quite right with your family? And you have to forsake your heritage in order to fit in. So when you're a child of immigrants, of newcomers, the acute embarrassment you feel just walking down the street, is an embarrassment, not just of your parents, but of all your kith and kin, all your cousins, the entire lineage from which you're descended because you know, to be accepted by your new friends that you're making, you have to reject your grandparents. You, in a literal sense, can't speak the same language to them, right? So when I was a kid, I was always a little embarrassed. You know, my parents, they had accents, they ate funny food. My dad was always trying to get me to eat some chicken feet. When we watch television, sometimes they didn't laugh at the right time because they didn't get the joke.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=243.94,754.195"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Mm hm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=754.195,755.696"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e We had modest means, so we didn't go out to fancy restaurants. But if we went out to a restaurant, they wouldn't know what fork to pick up because of course, we use chopsticks. So my parents didn't quite fit in and they-- I always-- I was a little angry with them too, because I thought they'd blame me. I would come home and say I'd been challenged to another kung-fu karate match during recess and they would scold me. They would say you should try harder to fit in. I thought they were blaming me. You know, the teachers would say, just reply, \"Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me.\" I always thought there was something wrong with that, even as a kid, because the words precede the sticks and stones and they're fighting words, they're not just words. You know, kids also, they can they can survive anything, right? They have high fevers. They fall off the swing set and knock out their teeth. They tumble downstairs and break an arm. Kids can survive what adults can't, right? Doctors will tell you their bones are actually much less brittle than when they become mature. So the physical harm —you bounce back from —but the psychic harm, the constant denigration of your ancestry, that still packs a punch, generations later. So I always thought my parents were blaming me. What I didn't realize is they were blaming themselves.You see I always figured when I was a kid that when I grew up, when I could drive and I was shaving and put on a coat and tie and went off to work like my dad did, that I wouldn't face any of these issues. Little did I know he faced all these same issues. Just the sophisticated adult version, which was far worse, and he didn't have anyone to go complain to. There was no teacher or anyone. He had to keep the job because he had to earn a living and put food on the table to keep a roof over our heads. So I didn't speak the language of civil rights to those kids, and my parents didn't speak the language of civil rights because they literally spoke another language. But we didn't know is that it wasn't their fault, wasn't my fault, but there was racial prejudice. My parents really believed in the American dream. I believe the American dream. But they believed the American dream so much, they assumed that my brothers and I, having been born here, would be accepted, that it would be automatic. And the persistence of prejudice is something that they hadn't counted on. That no matter how hard we try to assimilate, somehow you're trying too hard. You know, that's the irony of it. When I was a kid, if someone said to me, well, you want to talk about civil rights or race or ethnicity or diversity, which wasn't even be used as a phrase then, I would have said no. I just want to ride my bike around the block and be normal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=755.696,944.126"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Mm hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=944.126,944.652"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e I just want to be like any other kid, and so the bargain that you're made is if you don't assimilate, we'll pick on you. But if you do assimilate, they'll still pick you, right, because then it's just sort of weird, then you become a banana; yellow on the outside, white on the inside, right? You're trying too hard, you're striving to mimic your social superiors, and they set the standard of what jeans and sneakers are cool and fashionable. You'll never be the one who just looked up to. Now, this is all different depending on where you grow up, right? So I grew up in the Midwest in the 1970s and there was no critical mass. My brothers and I, we were the only ones who looked like us. There was no one else in the same skin color, texture, hair, or our shape of eyes. But if you grow up in New York City's Chinatown, if you grow up in today's Flushing, Queens, if you grow up in San Francisco's Chinatown or in the suburban sprawl of Los Angeles in a place such as Monterey Park or you grow up in Hawaii — well, then you have cousins around you and that it's not so weird that you are who you are. So that's where I'm coming from, literally and figuratively.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=944.652,1039.38"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh wow. Could you think of any examples where you saw your father like, aside from going to the restaurants, experiencing issues with trying to assimilate with American culture.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=1039.38,1055.61"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Sure. For the children of immigrants, there's is an awkward role reversal which starts when you're young, where you have to be an interpreter and translator for your own parents. You know, there is a dispute at the bank or the phone company, and actually my parents' English is perfectly fine. It's quite grammatical. They have an educated vocabulary, but they have accents. And the people they're talking to sometimes look down on them. And imagine more of an accent than there is, right, when people describe accents, they tend to exaggerate them and they tend to hear accents that they associate with visual cues. A person looks a certain way and so they imagine they sound that way. Like when people say to me, \"Oh, gee, you don't sound Chinese,\" like I'm supposed to sound a certain way as if I'm following a script, like Charlie Chan on TV. Yeah, actually, we all have accents, I have a Midwestern accent. On the telephone, I pass, right? I sound like any other person, male in their 50s from Detroit, Michigan. If you recorded a dozen of us who went to the same high school, you would have difficulty even if you were an expert assessing which one of us had what ancestry. So what really changed everything for me was a terrible hate crime, a murder in 1982. I'll tell you a little bit about that, because it's what set me on the course that I've been on ever since. It's what made me realize you had to stand up and speak out. There was a fellow named Vincent Chin. He was 27 years old, who's Chinese-American. He was of Chinese descent, a U.S. citizen. He's a working-class kind of guy. He was not the model minority. He was not a whiz kid, child prodigy. He dropped out of college, gone back to technical school to be a draftsperson. He was a waiter, a Chinese restaurant, on the side, to make a few bucks. And he had decided to settle down. He'd proposed to a young lady, also Chinese American, and they were due to be married. Now there's some context, it's very important. This is in the early 80s when there was a terrible recession. The United States struggled throughout the 70s, though, because of the oil crisis and the oil embargo, and gasoline had to be rationed even, so you could buy some days for a license plate ended an odd number, some days for a license plate ended in an even number. New York City went bankrupt. So the United States was hurting. But unlike the recession of 2008 — what's called the Great Recession, in the 1970s. It was just the United States. Japan was doing well and there was a fear of the land of the rising sun, an economic Pearl Harbor. And Detroit was especially hard hit, you see, everyone in Detroit worked for a car company. And if you didn't, your neighbors certainly did, that's why it's called the Motor City. And that's why my family was there, so we were typical. Back then, it's hard to remember this, everyone drove an American car. Some rich people might have had a Mercedes and hippies had Volkswagen, but nobody drove cars called Honda or Subaru or Toyota. If you brought one of those home, people would have laughed, they would have said, \"Why do you have a piece of Jap crap?\" And then they would have pointed out it's small, it's imported as a four cylinder engine, not a mighty V8. But worst of all, it came from Asia, from Japan. Those cars were fuel efficient and high quality, and so people started to buy them and container ships started to come. And the dominance of the American auto industry was challenged successfully. So that's the backdrop to this case. So it's 1982, the U.S. is still in the throes of this horrible recession. Japan is prospering and the Motor City is hard hit. People are worried about being laid off from their jobs. Interest rates and unemployment rates are both in the double digits. People are really struggling in every sense. Every family is feeling the pinch of economic anxiety. And it's all because of those Asians, those dirty Japs, as they were called during World War Two when it's still in the 1980s. So Vincent Chin, who's Chinese not Japanese, who's an American not a foreigner, so this is mistaken identity twice over. That wouldn't be right if people had found a Japanese person to kill. What happened is Chin has a bachelor's party and he goes out to Highland Park, which is a part of the city. It's actually a separate municipality surrounded by the city. If Detroit has fallen on hard times, Highland Park has fallen on worse times. It was boarded up, old factories, abandoned houses, bars and strip clubs. So Chin and the three of his buddies go to a strip club and they're having a good time because if you're all American guy and you're going to get married,  that's what you do. You have a bachelor's party and you go out one last time. And Chin was an all-American guy. He was an ordinary guy, he didn't set out to be a civil rights icon or a martyr. But across the dance floor from them, there were two other gentlemen, autoworkers, a father and a stepson. The father was a foreman at a Chrysler plant, so he had reached the very lowest level of management on the shop floor. And they looked over at Chin and they started to use those racial slurs, the same ones I used to hear on the playground; chink and Jap, and when you don't hear anymore, nip, and then one of them, you'll have to pardon the language but according to witnesses, this is what one of them shouted, \"You little motherfuckers. It's because of you, motherfuckers, that we're out of work.\" Which means that in the eyes of his attackers, Chin, Chinese-American, represented Tokyo and Toyota. There is much more to this story. There was a brawl and then later after the bouncers had thrown everyone out and broken up the fight, the father and his stepson were driving around looking for Chin. They hunted him down using a baseball bat, which was about a symbolic weapon as you could find. They attacked Chin, the stepson got him into a bear hug or shoved him into the street and the father started taking repeated swings. Witnesses would say, \"It looks like you want to hit a home run.\" Striking Chin on the arms, the torso, ultimately the head. And they literally split his skull open. So with blood and spinal fluid and cerebral matter pulling out of the pavement beneath him, he crumpled, uttered the last words, \"It's not fair,\" and lapsed into a coma from which he would never recover. Brought to nearby Henry Ford Hospital, the family a few days later ordered the plug pulled and Chin died. The guests who would have attended his wedding went to his funeral instead. The killers always admitted they did what they did. They never for a moment denied they killed Chin. But they said this was just a bar brawl, it wasn't a hate crime. The concept of hate crime was still a new idea then. We take it for granted now but in the 1980s, hate crime was just being introduced by prosecutors. And this was among the earlier of the federal prosecutions. The state court judge, you see, had sentenced the two killers. They were sober, cleaned up, dressed in their Sunday best, represented by competent defense counsel. And they accepted the plea deal because there were dozens of witnesses who'd seen the brutal beating. And the judge not being told about any of the racial aspects sentenced them to probation for three years and a fine of three thousand dollars each. I didn't know Chin, but that case changed my life. It made me see the power of words and it made me understand that it wasn't just me. You see, when you're a racial minority, there's a gaslighting effect, you know, \"Oh, you're imagining it, it's in your head. Lighten up, get over it, it's just a joke, right? What's the big deal? Don't have thin skin and be politically correct.\" But those same words that were being used toward me on the playground were the ones that were used toward Chin, moments before he was killed. The defense lawyers always pointed out that Chin and his killers were sort of the same. They were hotheaded guys who liked to have a drink, who hung out at strip bar, and that's true. But Chin was just a guy. That's the irony. He was so American, yet, he wasn't. He was different from his attackers and color of skin, texture of hair ,and shape of eyes, and he paid for that with his life. So that the Chin case was, for me, a defining moment when I saw why you had to confront these issues, that you couldn't just deny them and ride your bicycle around the block and want to fit in. That wasn't enough. That wasn't going to be a successful strategy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=1055.61,1705.59"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e This happened when you're around 15?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=1705.59,1709.49"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e That's right, I was just a teenage. Before that, I wanted to be an architect. I wanted to go to architecture school and be like Frank Lloyd Wu. You know, like Frank Lloyd Wright.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=1709.49,1720.891"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e [Laughter].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=1720.891,1722.107"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e But instead, I became a writer and lawyer and advocate, and it was because of that case.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=1722.107,1734.19"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay. So at fifteen, you decided that you wanted to become an activist or a lawyer?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=1734.19,1744.6"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Right, so I I started to do that and, what happened was I realized that there were principles at stake. That this wasn't just about self-interest and people who look like me, who could be my cousin. That if I cared about this, I had to learn as much as I could about the historic struggle for Black equality, that this wasn't just about Chinese-Americans or Asian-Americans. This case actually brought together people whose ancestors would have hated one another. In Asia, there are no Asians. When I say that, people are sort of puzzled, but if you went to Shanghai, or Seoul, or Tokyo, or any other major city or village in Asia, people would say they're Chinese, they're Japanese, the Korean, they're Indian, they're Pakistani. They would identify by province, by village, by clan, by religious faith. They would identify in many ways, but they wouldn't say Asian. You know, there are some idealists who talked about Pan Asian affinity and imperialists. You know, Japan created the East Asian co-prosperity sphere during World War Two, but that was just a euphemism for Japanese aggression and colonialism. So there aren't really Asians in Asia and, the Chinese, many of them hate the Japanese as Japanese hate the Chinese, as they look down on the Koreans and are rude to the Thai and the Filipinos, and so on and so on, right? So we divide ever further amongst ourselves. But what the Chin case showed is, as I remember hearing when I was a kid, you all look alike, right? So, it doesn't matter that you're Chinese not Japanese, and it doesn't matter that you're a U.S. citizen and assimilated. You're still nonetheless held accountable, blamed for Japanese car companies and Japanese trade policies, and so on and so forth. So, what happened was I went to college and and I wanted to write a term paper about Asian-Americans and civil rights. So I went to the library at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, and it is it's a fine institution. A library has vast holdings. This is before Google. You had to go to the card catalog room. People today don't even remember that, but there used to be these giant wooden cabinets. They looked like dressers, but they had these incredibly long drawers. You would pull out that had hundreds of index cards and every book would be listed by the author's name, by the title of the book on the subject and the card catalog room, that occupy the entire floor of a building and have hundreds of these cabinets, millions of these cards. You would look up the book and find the call number and go to the stacks and then and there it would be. So this is before the Internet hands and digital versions of anything. I want to write a book about I want to write a paper about Asian-Americans and civil rights, so I went and looked for books on that subject, and there were none. No one had ever written a book about Asian-Americans and civil rights. There were books about civil rights. Books about race. And it's interesting, I've read many of them, didn't matter whether they were thick for thin old or new liberal or conservative by historians or sociologists. They all use the liberal, black and white framing of the world. What I mean by that is they divided the population into two categories, mutually opposed, black and white. And some of these books, so the dust jacket would have a blurb saying, \"Everyone should read this book. If everyone listened to this author, we would be a much happier society. This book is based on the latest statistics.\" But I thought they were all wrong because the picture that they presented of reality was not accurate. I could tell just by strolling across campus. And the authors would sometimes admit their ignorance, but they were indifferent. They would say in the first chapter, well, there are some people, Asians and Hispanics, but they don't really count. And they would just openly dismiss these populations and any need to address them. And so I thought, well, how I was offended, not as an Asian-American, I was offended as someone who wanted write a term paper and get an A. I thought,  why would anyone trust any of these books? They're just not accurate. So my thinking was, it doesn't matter what your own ancestry is, the what your politics are, doesn't matter what academic discipline you're in, if you want to talk about these issues, you should have a picture of the world that corresponds to the reality around us. Your picture of the world shouldn't be incomplete and inaccurate. And on top of that, you're indifferent to the incompleteness in inaccuracy of it. So I wanted to write that for myself. And I found a couple of books on Asian-Americans, there were two that  — when I say two, I mean there are literally two books came out in the late 70s that are called \"Asian-Americans cite the sociological and psychological perspectives.\" I brought these books used a few years ago. They're collections of academic essays and those are the only two books on the shelf. So I tracked them out, I read them, as I could say, I was an expert. I read every single book written about Asian-Americans at that time and my professors have read textbooks. They had no idea of the lengthy history going back all the way to the United States Civil War. So I'll digress for a moment. When I say this, people say now that can't be true. I had lunch with a Chinese exchange student last summer. I was headed to do some research and I was talking about this. And the Chinese foreign exchange student said, \"No, that's impossible.\" And I showed her a photo and she said, she looked at it and she wondered if it was fake. During the U.S. Civil War, so this is 1861 to 1865, there were Asian soldiers in both the Union and Confederate armies. When you say that people are highly skeptical, but the whole book has been written, listing not one or two, but several hundred, mostly Chinese, but also Native Hawaiian, other Pacific Islanders, you name it. And there were these folks of Asian descent and they have a few surviving photos and other documentary proof. So if anyone's interested in this, they can easily find the book. It was published by the National Park Service, as implausible as it seems, it's true. So ultimately, what happened was I became a professor at Howard University, the nation's leading historically Black school, HBCU, Historically Black College or University. That was life changing, it was profound. I was there for a decade, and even to this moment, that's the institution where I spent most of my academic career. Ten years. It was making a statement just showing up to the classroom, a statement about bridge building, about coalition. I also learned as much as I taught in a way that I could never have learned from books, no matter how long I studied. I learned about the prejudices I had, the privileges I enjoyed. I learned about the tremendous diversity of the disparities among African-Americans or the Black diaspora. Because at Howard, I had students who were fourth generation professionals. They're great grandparents had graduated from Howard long ago and had started a fraternity or sorority on campus. They were descendants of the African-American elite. And I also had students who couldn't afford the books, who are the first in their extended family to have any higher education. There were students from the Caribbean, there were students who were Haitian, there were students who are Nigerian. And some foreign born Blacks didn't identify with African Americans and vice versa. They would have said, no, I'm not African American, I'm Nigerian, and they would have been very proud of that. They were Black Canadians or Black Britons, there were Black Hispanics. There were Afro Asians or Blasians. There were people who were Black and Jewish, and biracial, multiracial, every combination that you could imagine. There were high church Episcopalians, there were Baptists, there were Muslims, there were Buddhists, there were Christian scientists. So it was fascinating to see this incredible diversity that most White Americans never have any contact with, and for that matter, most Asian Americans never have any contact with. So being at Howard University was so important to my identity and the work that I continued to do. I ultimately wrote a book called, \"Yellow Race in America Beyond Black and White,\" that was based on the term paper that I've written as a college sophomore. And in that book, I talk about W.E.B. Dubois. If you have any interest in issues of race, you would know Dubois's name. He was a race man. He was America's first public intellectual, an African-American, the first Black to earn a doctorate from Harvard University. Born as Reconstruction was starting. He died from the eve of Martin Luther King's march on Washington. He was a founder of the NAACP, the editor of its magazine Crisis. He wrote monographs on subjects, such as the Philadelphia Negro. He wrote newspaper columns, he wrote novels, he wrote plays. He did everything you could do as an intellectual. And in 1983, he published a magisterial work, The Souls of Black Folk. It's been in print ever since, which is an impressive achievement. It was there that he talks about dual consciousness, that he talks about the talented tenth in his debate with Booker T. Washington, who had advocated cast down your bucket where you are, that African-Americans could acquiesce to Jim Crow. Dubois would have nothing of that. He wanted to assert rights and accept responsibilities to say that our African Americans were equals in every sphere, whether that was legal or political, cultural or social, or economic. In Souls of Black Folk, Dubois has a famous line, even if you don't know these words or that the quote should be attributed to him, if you've ever studied [inaudible] at all, you'd know this line. So writing as to the dawn of a new century, he said, \"The problem of the 20th century is the problem of the color line.\" What's interesting about that phrase, though, is it's always quoted, as I just said, that's not even half the words in the sentence. What Dubois actually wrote, if you go back and read the paragraph is, \"The problem of the 20th century is the problem of the color line-- COMMA-- the relation of darker to lighter races of man in Asia and Africa, the Americas and the islands of the sea.\" That additional language is not meaningless surplus, it shows that Dubois was able to do two things. And when you look at his other work, he did this consistently. He-- you couldn't for a moment doubt he was a champion for Black equality. He exemplified what it meant to be a civil rights advocate on behalf of African Americans. Yet, he also situated that struggle within a global framing. He not only didn't see any opposition. He saw support between the struggle for African Americans and the struggle for others, that these could be mutually reinforcing. So when I wrote my book \"Yellow,\" I was proposing, not a new project, you know when you're in college, you have that conceit: every idea you ever have is yours; you're the first person to think that.  Of course, when I was a college sophomore, I thought \"race beyond black and white,\" that's my idea. But it's not. Dubois had had the idea much earlier, and so what I'm really proposing is that we revise the Duboisian ideal and pursue his project. So, I've been talking a long time, ha--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=1744.6,2624.269"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yeah, but that's that's the point. Um, I guess--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=2624.269,2627.349"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Should we talk about--.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=2627.349,2631.22"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e What are you suggestion?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=2631.22,2633.71"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e No no, you wanted to follow up. I'm happy to talk more than talk a little bit about Coronavirus, but you want to follow up on something?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=2633.71,2641.41"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah, I wanted to follow what made you decide, I guess it's two questions, so I'm just going ask the first question right now, which is what made you decide to attend Johns Hopkins in Baltimore in the 1980s?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=2641.41,2655.63"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e OK. So I went to college at Johns Hopkins because it was a good school and because it had a program in writing. I was a writing major and my parents thought, \"Oh, this is terrible, all the sacrifices we've made and our son will never be successful.\" You know, they took a dim view of the liberal arts and I realized much later, I forgave my parents, we had the sort of arguments that Asian immigrant parents and their American born children have, because my parents' view was, \"Well, if you're smart, you have to be a doctor or an engineer or maybe a scientist, but you know, not a writer! Whoever becomes a writer?\" I realized that their attitude was shaped by their own history. That's true, all of our attitudes are shaped by our histories. In order for them to come to the United States when they did to acquire a visa, to have had a scholarship, you had to major in a field that America needed. And America did not need Asian immigrants studying writing, right? So all the people who came when my parents came and to be able to come to America, that was the American dream in a way that we don't quite understand, right? Those of us born here, we just take it all for granted. The American dream is not just achieving the prosperity that people assume is possible in America. It's to be able to come at all, to be able to leave a third world nation, someplace impoverished, for someplace that in material terms is so much more prosperous. In order to do that, you had to have and demonstrate skills in the STEM fields. So that's why my parents felt as they did. They also believed that if you work with numbers, unlike working with words, people couldn't be as prejudiced, right, because numbers are numbers. Equations and formulas are the same in Chinese or English or Urdu or whatever language you choose. And so they thought there'd be less bias, but turns out actually not to be true. There's a sociologist at Queens College who studied this. And even in areas with many Asian immigrants and Asian-Americans, such as engineering, Asian immigrants and Asian-Americans are not promoted into leadership and management roles at the same rate as there are non-Asian peers. So even in fields that are about numbers, we still face bias.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=2655.63,2843.919"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Hm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=2843.919,2844.63"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e You said you had a second question.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=2844.63,2848.67"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e The second question was, I guess I was very interested in you describing Baltimore and D.C. during this time. As a student at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore, what was the area like?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=2848.67,2864.7"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e So Johns Hopkins has two campuses in Baltimore. The undergraduate campus at Homewood, which is in the city in bordering several neighborhoods, but among them, a well to do area called Roland Park. The medical facilities are a different part of the city that's much more impoverished and crime-ridden. And Hopkins has played a very significant role in trying to revitalize the city. You know, it's a major employer. Its benefactor is a former New York City mayor, Michael Bloomberg, who's given more than a billion dollars. Bloomberg is the single greatest philanthropist in American higher education history through his largesse to Hopkins, which is renowned mainly for its medical school and for programs in health science. It's a great university, but that's what it's mainly known for,  and with Coronavirus, it's very much in the news. It's the folks at Johns Hopkins who are tracking Coronavirus and treatment of vaccines and tests and so on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=2864.7,2953.11"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e They've created a comprehensive map that I think everyone is following, well, not everyone, but something that's really been helpful during this time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=2953.11,2964.11"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. I have about 10 more minutes. I'm happy, by the way, to finally talk more. Ten more minutes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=2964.11,2975.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e OK. So if that's the case, I guess let's start talking about your experience with Covid-19, and I guess, in regards to the timeline of this pandemic, the first experience that we have of it is December 31st in 2019, when China reports a cluster of cases in Hunan Province. And then in January 26, just because in California there's the first case, and by March 11th, it's declared a pandemic by the World Health Organization. So I guess before March 11th, that is the date that I'm using as a touchstone moment, what were you hearing about this virus and could you take me from the initial moments of you hearing about it to the moment where you realized that this was going to affect your life and basically everyone else's life?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=2975.0,3056.8"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Sure, let me talk for a minute about Queens College and come into Queens College. Friends of mine encouraged me to to pursue the opportunity, and I was not looking to be a college president, because I had already been Chancellor of University California Hastings College of Law, which is heading the campus. I had been Dean of the Law School at Wayne State in my hometown of Detroit. But what attracted me is Queens College and the borough of Queens. I have many friends in higher education who decide they want to be a college president. That's good, that's fine, I'm happy for them. That's what they want to do and they apply to many schools. They decide they're ready, they'll be strong candidates in those different searches and they get into all these searches. I wanted to be in the Queens College search and only that search because it represents the power of higher education as the engine of the American dream. It's the most diverse place on the face of the globe. It's an institution with a mission which not every institution has anymore. And so I didn't apply to lots of places, I applied to Queens. And I was thrilled to have the opportunity and I remain enthusiastic. When I recorded my video, my welcome video, released the day after the board approved of me as a candidate, I really struggled to strike the right tone. You know, normally you record something like that's positive, it's enthusiastic, it's rah rah. And it doesn't have really that much of content, it's just trying to communicate, \"I'm so excited.\" That didn't seem right under our circumstances, because it was just, I wouldn't be right. Given everything happening, I had to acknowledge Coronavirus and not just Coronavirus, but that Queens is the epicenter of the epicenter at this point, and it's likely to remain so, and when the history of Coronavirus is written, New York City will be number two after Wuhan, China, as the site of coronavirus. So I recorded a video that was about perseverance and resilience as individuals and as a community, because even as we practice social distancing, even as we try to stay away from each other, in order to do that, we need the infrastructure of society around us, the civil society that that sustains everything that we do, Otherwise, we would degenerated into chaos and worse. So I'm still looking forward to coming to Queens College and then coming to Queens. I just have to figure out how to do it logistically and then I have to figure out, well, how do you lead under these circumstances? How do you give people confidence, but not false confidence? How do you ensure optimism but not irrational exuberance? So it's about expressing empathy, presenting the big picture and then articulating a path forward. Empathy, big picture, path forward; I've learned that as a framework for crisis management. When I first learned of Coronavirus and the measures that had to be taken, I thought, well, that's important for us to do, that's reasonable. I had not anticipated how much anti-Asian sentiment would arise. And when when it first started, you know, these reports of actual physical attacks, I thought that people were fearful, that anyone who looked Asian, not just Chinese, but who looked Asian was contagious. I've concluded it's not about that. It's about whether they're culpable. What I mean is this isn't about time I touch a bug from you. It's about you're to blame, and that's explicit in much of the hate that spread on social media, That this is the fault of Chinese people, not of the Chinese government in Beijing, not of officials who didn't respond soon enough or who may not have presented all of the facts, but of an entire population, including ethnic Chinese in the United States, who are Chinese have a sense of lineage, but I tried to be clear, I'm an American. I'm a native born American. When people say go back to where you came from, that's Detroit. I am proud to be an American, and that doesn't mean I'm not proud of my ancestry. It just means look, whether other people believe it or not, it's when the American national anthem plays that I'm moved. Genuinely, that's not a performance, it's not an act, and I wouldn't even recognize the Chinese national anthem if you played it. So to be an Asian-American is  just who I am, through and through, yet Asian-Americans face this perpetual foreigner syndrome. You know, even if you're assimilated, even if you know who you are, that you're an American, other people look at you as if you're foreign agent, you're a spy, you're a potential traitor. And so for me, Coronavirus has two parts to it. The first part of Corona virus is the disease itself, right? And the second part of Coronavirus is the social effects, not just social distancing, but does the social effects and the breakdown of trust, which are as devastating as the disease and will persist beyond the disease, even after the disease itself is brought under  control. The way we behave, whether we go to a baseball game or whether we go out to a theater to see movies, whether we ride the bus or shop for groceries, eat out at a restaurant home, all of that has changed and I predict those changes are not temporary. They might not be permanent, but they will be long lasting. And there's a disparate effect. So, you know, everyone who is thoughtful understands that in addition to the disease, there are these or social effects. But there's a disparate effect, meaning a different effect for people of Asian background, even Asian Americans. So I have been to Wuhan, I went to Wuhan once, ten years ago. So I've set foot in Wuhan, but if you ask me, do I remember anything about Wuhan? Actually, no, not really. And this blaming of Asians and specifically Chinese, irrespective of citizenship is, it's guilt by association. It's group-based guilt. It's you as a people brought this upon us. And it's all about us, them, division, and Asian Americans and Chinese Americans, especially, turn out to be on the other side of the us-them division. OK, I need to sign off, but if you want to do a second session, I'm happy to to do our second session. If you want, we just would have to schedule it but it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. I hope this is useful and I very much do look forward to meeting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=3056.8,3682.32"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e OK. Yes. Yes, we can set, I'll email you about setting up a schedule. A second time to do this, it'll be for like about 45 minutes, tops, and we'll just take it from there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=3682.32,3694.5"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFrank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Fantastic, great, great. All right. Thank you so much. OK.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=3694.5,3696.5"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575/transcript/15809/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eObden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Thank you for the interview.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90575#t=3696.5,3699.0"}]}]},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 2 - Wu_Frank2020423.wav"]},"duration":1832.12408,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/090/574/small/Headshot2015_Wuaviary.jpg?1590574110","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/090/574/original/Wu_Frank2020423.wav?1590573680","type":"Audio","format":"audio/wav","duration":1832.12408,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Full Interview Transcript - April 23, 2020 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e For some reason, this is just. Went straight to voicemail. Oh, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=14.63,18.66"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay, cool. I have a, I have a physical recorder out here, so I think we can use this as an alternative.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=20.02,30.199"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e OK. Yeah. Great.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=32.08,33.168"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e And I'm listening to it now since [crosstalk]. Yeah. So I guess.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=33.7,38.849"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e OK. Great.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=39.98,40.98"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e The first thing I'm going to do is give today's date, which is April 23rd, 2020. My name is Obden Mondesir. I am here with Frank Wu. We are continuing a conversation that we had last week, Tuesday, and some of the things that we discussed was your upbringing in Michigan and specifically Detroit. We had some conversations about like, what it was like having parents of, from China living in the US and coming here because of education. And we also talked about the death of Vincent Chin as the impetus for a lot of the work that you do today. And the last thing that we got finished talking about was your decision to take on the position of president of the college at Queens College and also the breakdown of trust and the social effects that have been occurring with COVID-19.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=42.6,120.499"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e So I guess, I wanted to ask you about your experiences, as, as an Asian-American in regards to the COVID crisis.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=121.5,136.156"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e So. So with the global pandemic of Coronavirus, or COVID-19, there has been hostility toward China, Chinese people, Chinese immigrants and Chinese-Americans. The Pew Foundation, that's spelled P-E-W, Pew Foundation, just released a survey (they do public opinion in polling) and it shows increased hostility of Americans toward China. So if you're a Chinese-American of Chinese descent, but you're a U.S. citizen, sometimes no matter how assimilated you are or what your loyalties are, your identity--you get caught in the middle. People look at you and they want to know, which side are you on? So there have been physical attacks and a real rise in discrimination.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=141.03,198.36"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e New York City has now set up an effort to look into this, to try to address it because people of Asian descent, not just Chinese, but since, as I was told from childhood, \"You all look alike,\" even if you're not Chinese you could be Japanese or Korean, people will still think of you as Chinese. There's everything from name-calling to physical attacks to discrimination. The irony is, of course, so many health care workers are of Asian descent. They're immigrants or children of newcomers. They're of Chinese and Korean and Filipino background. So they're at the frontline risking their lives, caring for people who are stricken with Coronavirus. But there's this sense of blame.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=198.62,248.869"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e There are even American states that are trying to file suits against China. And China has become a target. It's being scapegoated. There may well be legitimate concerns about the Chinese government's response to coronavirus, whether it responded quickly enough, whether it responded honestly, and so on. What I'm concerned about, however, is the effect on Chinese-Americans: people who are in no way representative of Beijing, who may be sixth generation Americans, whose great-great-randfather might have worked on the transcontinental railroad or who might have been born and grew up in Flushing, Queens, who are New Yorkers through and through.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=250.22,300.079"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e When I first heard reports of these issues after Coronavirus started to spread, I thought it was racial stereotyping--which is wrong--out of fear that Chinese were contagious or people who looked Chinese might be a source of disease. Now, that's not... Because there are people who look Chinese who aren't Chinese, there are people who are Chinese in ancestry, but who are Americans and who've never been to China, much less to Wuhan where this disease came from. But then I realized it isn't just about catching a bug. It's about culpability. It's about looking at people of Chinese ancestry and saying, \"It's your fault. You brought this upon the world. We blame you.\" Even if it's just an ordinary person, it's just a man or woman off the street who is no different than their coworker or neighbor. Nonetheless, because of the color of their skin, the texture of their hair, the shape of their eyes, in a moment of crisis, we forget our consensus.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=301.73,375.73"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e America, through the civil rights movement, achieved a fragile consensus, regardless of people's politics or who they are, that we won't engage in guilt by association. That we reject the idea that each of us represents a race at all times. Instead, we want to judge people by the content of their character as individuals. Yet in this time of global anxiety, even panic, it's easy to forget our principles. And for people who have nothing to do with China, nothing to do with Coronavirus, except that their ancestors came from China to these shores, like so many people of so many different backgrounds; well, they're being blamed unfairly, unjustly for a health crisis that should, for a health crisis that requires that we all come together, that we cooperate, that we address these issues as a society because no single person is going to be able to cure Coronavirus. No single person, regardless of their heritage, is going to be able to make the world safe from this disease, and no single person is responsible for it either. Yet we, despite our ideals, assign guilt on a group basis.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=376.72,489.394"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e So. This is not an original observation on my part. Yeah, coronavirus is not just a health care crisis. It's a social crisis. It's an economic crisis. It's a political crisis. Coronavirus has effects that extend beyond the disease itself. And many of these effects will last, will persist even after there's a cure for the disease, even after there's a vaccination, even after there's a program, people will still hesitate to go to a baseball game or go to a movie theater, attend classes on a college campus. People will still be nervous if someone next to them on an airplane coughs or sneezes, and people likely will still shy away from other people who happen to look Asian. So there are so many reports now that are credible, that are widespread, that this is a pattern as the epidemic of Coronavirus has spread, the epidemic of anti-Asian bias has accompanied it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=492.45,572.051"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, I guess, um. There's so many veins I want to take, but in regards to the, um, the anti-Asian bias involved...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=575.88,586.624"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, may I add something to this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=587.85,590.104"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=590.177,590.786"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e I mean, this is actually, none of this, none of this is new. In San Francisco, more than a century ago, there was a bubonic plague outbreak and Chinese immigrants were blamed. And when the AIDS crisis first developed two generations ago, the AIDS crisis was blamed on, among other, among others, homosexuals (that was the term that was in use then), hemophiliacs and Haitians. So there was a disproportionate amount of HIV in the Haitian immigrant community, and so it was thought of as a disease with an ethnic background. The other group were heroin users who had to shoot up. So these were the \"four H's\" of the AIDS crisis: homosexuals, Haitians, hemophiliacs and heroin addicts. And that's how it was referred to in the nineteen eighties.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=590.787,668.04"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Mm hmm. Okay. And I guess, one of the things I wanted to continue on is, while the, the pandemic may have started in Wuhan, China, there is the issue of the federal response at this moment, and we have had someone in office that has constantly used divisive language to basically communicate in general. So I guess in general, how have you felt about the response from the local government, for you that would be in California, and then the federal government in general.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=672.82,726.219"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e So there have been such a wide range of responses and conspiracy theories. You know, one of the most widely spread, one of the most widely spread but false claims is that Bill Gates, the tech entrepreneur, invented Coronavirus in order to make people sick so that he could also offer treatments and profit from that. That's an absurd claim. It has zero basis in fact. It's a great example of what we now call fake news, but it's been propagated on social media because a few years ago, Bill Gates actually warned about pandemics and he has an interest as a philanthropist in funding health care. So ironically, his awareness of this issue was turned into this crazed claim that Bill Gates is personally responsible for Coronavirus.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=729.63,803.568"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e There are also Coronavirus deniers, just as there are deniers of the Holocaust, just as there are people who are anti-vaccination who don't accept the science. There are people who have said that Coronavirus is a liberal effort to promote the so-called \"deep state.\" Some of these claims are just preposterous on their face. What I mean by that is, you could look at the claim and just say, how likely is it that Bill Gates would create a dread disease and infect millions of people in order to make money off it? Is it plausible that liberals would make up a vast falsehood about epidemiology in order to advance the interests of what people imagine exists, which is some anti-American government within the government that's trying to promote illicit liberal goals, you know?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=806.33,896.629"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e So part of that is, and none of this happens in a vacuum, there has been rising hostility toward China over the past few years that's been stoked by political demagoguery, politicians of both parties, who want to be able to say to the average American voter, \"the reason you are suffering is not the growing gap between haves and have nots. That's part of the structure of our economy. It's instead an external enemy. It's those Chinese.\" So there are people who have predicted a cultural war, economic war, trade war and political war between the United States and China, including thoughtful people who want to avoid that type of conflict, who've analyzed historically what happens when there is a rising power of the world and an established power.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=898.73,962.63"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Harvard Professor Graham Allison wrote a book called the Thucydides Trap. Thucydides was the famous Greek general and historian. (Spelled T-H-U-C-Y-D-I-D-E-S.) Thucydides, he wrote the history of the Peloponnesian War, a classic. And Graham Allison analyzed more than a dozen instances throughout the history of civilization globally, where there's a power that's established and an upstart power and in most, not all, but in most of those instances, you have military war. So there are people who want to prevent this possibility who have discussed the prospect.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=962.96,1014.049"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e But for the past few years, as China has risen, America has felt threatened. And the rhetoric has become angrier and angrier. And now there's Coronavirus. So, in addition to claims that China's trying to take over the world, in addition to claims that Chinese students are all spies, there is now a claim that China, some people have said, deliberately created this disease. So if it wasn't Bill Gates, it would have, China, and set it loose on the world in order to wreak havoc so that China could continue its rise. That's also highly unlikely and appears not to be supported by any evidence. But these days, with social media, outlandish claims don't need to actually be based on facts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1015.22,1069.316"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, I agree. I think one of the things that I have been observing during this pandemic is that there is... What I find interesting about conspiracy theories is like, the simplicity in the narrative that they're trying to provide and that, in certain senses, it mimics the simplicity of narrative that particular medias provide as well. And, you know, just not seeing people, not really fact-checking, or like coming to an informed conclusion as to what's happening. So like, while, like we have this disease that we're dealing with, I also agree that, like, I think a part of the problem is also like there's a way that thinking needs to be changed so that like, something like this won't happen again. But I guess like, to go on to the next question is like, how, how have you been like personally affected by the, the, by the crisis at the moment?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1074.15,1148.38"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e I've been lucky because I'm in San Francisco sheltering at home. I've not personally been exposed to that much hostility. There have been moments when I've been out and about where people have behaved strangely. But everyone's behaving strangely now. So it's impossible to say why people have behaved strangely toward me. I've participated in town halls to talk about hate crimes and attacks where I've heard credible reports from multiple people of various instances of these events. And of course, I've been following the news.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1153.44,1197.13"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e For me personally, I had to figure out, and I'm still trying to figure out, how do I effectively transition into my role as president of Queens College. How will I be able to lead? Because I have a responsibility. It's about much more then just physically moving across country from San Francisco to New York. It's also about, how do I inspire people? It's...our institutions are so important. And even as we socially distance and isolate ourselves, it's apparent that we have to have the infrastructure around us, places like Queens College, that will continue.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1197.82,1253.18"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e And so as a leader, I have to think about how do I get people to rally, to, to have hope, to understand that even as we deal with all these issues, this is not the end of the world, that we need to develop a plan, be resolute and execute on the plan. And that more than ever, we have to see how connected we are. We have to see the, the common stake that we have. That, that there is a role for each and every one of us to play. And we all have to step up in our own way, even if we're sitting in our own home, that, that there's something for us to do. So for me, as a as a leader, contemplating a role, it would be challenging no matter what. Higher education leadership is just challenging, but it's especially challenging given everything that that's happening.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1253.24,1322.049"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e I have about five more minutes here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1331.42,1333.91"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e OK. I guess one of the future--sorry, we already went into my question. So the last question I want to ask, which, if I have to be honest, is always difficult for me to mention is: you have mentioned like, how it has been difficult to do this work specifically as a leader. And what I've been asking some people is like, like how do you see the landscape? How do you see, like, your personal landscape, I guess? Like your work at Queens College or just life in general changing four months from now? Yeah, I guess, like, what things are you thinking about in regards to the pandemic outside of the disease itself? Like, like, what is the new normal you expect to see?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1334.28,1395.06"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, coming into the role as president of Queens College, I'm thinking about how do we reopen? Will it be phased? How will we have classes? How will we avoid a risk of a recurrence just on a day-to-day operational level? How do we transition back from social isolation where everything is virtual and online to continuing to teach and for people to learn and for society to function safely? So that's the first.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1398.74,1432.96"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e The second is how can we addres the economic effects. You know, the budget of Queens College, the budget of CUNY, the budget of the state of New York and the economy of the United States have suffered and will continue to suffer such a severe setback.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1433.77,1456.96"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e The third issue is, how do I inspire? How do I... It is easy to give a speech. It's easy to write an article. How do I ensure that it's effective in getting people to feel: OK. I can wake up and, and go to work, and I have hope for the world around us and confidence in this guy who I don't know, starting as president of the institution, and confidence in all these other people who we depend upon, that they will make the right judgments? So they will make judgments that protect us, that they will make judgments that are fair, given how constrained we are in resources, and that they will help point us forward so that we can recover from this and get back on the right track. That's what I'm thinking of. So, number one, how do we resume day to day operations safely? Number two, how do we address the material, in particular, of the very severe financial consequences of coronavirus? And number three, personally, as a leader, how do I inspire people? That's what I would say.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1458.04,1506.746"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay cool.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1548.02,1549.02"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e OK, I have two minutes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1552.4,1553.504"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, OK. I guess, I really appreciate that statement that you've made, and I guess one of the things I wanted to hearken back to was like, this DuBois-ian concept of race relations that you think about, or you mentioned in the last interview, and, I guess in your experience, like, have you seen some of that, like, while in San Francisco while sheltering in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1554.13,1586.77"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e I'm sorry, can you say that question again? Have I seen what?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1592.4,1593.933"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Basically, basically, diverse communities helping each other during this time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1595.539,1601.059"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes. Actually, when I...in the past six weeks, I've ventured out really twice, to go to the supermarket to buy groceries that are needed for for my family. And when I was at the Safeway a week ago it was eerie. You know, no one was talking, everyone was by themselves, everyone tried to avoid everyone else. For those of us who have ventured out, you know what it's like, just to be different than any experience you've ever had. Yet, people also were considerate and polite. They were anxious and on edge, but they also were considerate and polite. So you know, a crisis brings out all sorts of responses and all sorts of conduct. And it ranges from the very bad to the very good, from the tragic to the heroic, right, from the wicked to the gracious, in both profound, big, obvious ways, but also in a smaller sense, just in our day-to-day interactions with each other.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1604.16,1688.579"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e So I've also seen a just remarkable, ordinary virtue on the street. So even as some people are yelling racial epithets and angry and brandishing firearms and demanding that, that everything reopen no matter how dangerous it is, and spreading, spreading these conspiracy theories, there are also people quietly going about their business who are at the frontline who are risking their lives simply by delivering the mail. You know, that's the mailman who we've gotten to know. That's a real... That's our main social interaction. It's a big deal when we open the door, if we have a package and we see Drew, our regular postal carrier, and we chat with them for a few minutes. That, that's the highlight of the afternoon. And he's out there every day doing his job. And he's not getting anything for the hazard that he faces for the real peril, and he is just fulfilling his responsibilities. That, that's great to see, you know, that, that people do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1688.82,1772.39"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay, I've got 30 seconds, so if you have one last question?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1774.39,1777.392"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Last question, I guess would be like, any routine that you've been able to develop while staying at home that's been helpful?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1778.44,1786.18"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Any routines? I walk the dog more often than I normally would, just to get out, go around the block with the dog. So she's probably wondering what's going on! Here in San Francisco, there have been all these reports that coyotes are roaming the streets because they're deserted. So the animal kingdom is probably baffled at what became of all the humans who they used to avoid who were predators and dangerous.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1788.91,1818.359"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e All right. I look forward to meeting you when I get there. Yeah. And if I can be helpful in any other way, feel free to call on me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1818.86,1823.522"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e All right. Thank you. Thank you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1824.68,1825.96"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Frank Wu:\u003c/strong\u003e Take care now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1826.47,1827.47"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574/transcript/15810/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Obden Mondesir:\u003c/strong\u003e Alright, you too. Bye.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/25084/file/90574#t=1827.64,1828.48"}]}]}]}