{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/xs5j962483/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Mary French Oral History"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eMary French is an anthropologist, a museum and archives professional, and a researcher of cemeteries in New York City. French is the creator of the New York City Cemetery Project, which has chronicled hundreds of cemeteries in New York City (extant cemeteries as well as those that are no longer in existence); historical profiles of these cemeteries are published on the Project's website. French speaks with interviewers Melissa Lino, Kevin O'Leary, and Gabriella Lacza about the history of the Olde Towne of Flushing Burial Ground in the context of broader historical patterns regarding how public cemetery sites in New York City have evolved over time to fulfill new purposes and serve changing community needs.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eThe Olde Towne of Flushing Burial Ground, located north of 46th Avenue between 164th and 165th Streets in Flushing (on the opposite side of 46th Avenue from Flushing Cemetery), was used since the 1840s for African-American, Native American and “pauper” burials, but in the 1930s was paved over and turned into a New York City park called Martin’s Field, featuring a children’s playground. Since February 2007, the Olde Towne of Flushing Burial Ground Conservancy has worked to ensure proper recognition, reclamation, use, and maintenance of the site.\u003c/p\u003e","\u003cp\u003eTo learn more about the New York City Cemetery Project, visit \u003ca href=\"https://nycemetery.wordpress.com/\"\u003ehttps://nycemetery.wordpress.com/\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/p\u003e (supplement)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["http://digitalarchives.queenslibrary.org/search/browse/43606"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2020-11-08 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Audio"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Mary French (Interviewee)","Melissa Lino (Interviewer)","Kevin O'Leary (Interviewer)","Gabriella Lacza (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["This interview was conducted as part of a short documentary about the Olde Towne of Flushing Burial Ground. The documentary was produced during Dr. Johnathan Thayer’s 790 Public History class in the Graduate School of Library and Information Studies at Queens College in Fall 2020."]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["1839-2020 (temporal)","Flushing, Queens, NY; New York, NY (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eMary French is an anthropologist, a museum and archives professional, and a researcher of cemeteries in New York City. French is the creator of the New York City Cemetery Project, which has chronicled hundreds of cemeteries in New York City (extant cemeteries as well as those that are no longer in existence); historical profiles of these cemeteries are published on the Project's website. French speaks with interviewers Melissa Lino, Kevin O'Leary, and Gabriella Lacza about the history of the Olde Towne of Flushing Burial Ground in the context of broader historical patterns regarding how public cemetery sites in New York City have evolved over time to fulfill new purposes and serve changing community needs.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eThe Olde Towne of Flushing Burial Ground, located north of 46th Avenue between 164th and 165th Streets in Flushing (on the opposite side of 46th Avenue from Flushing Cemetery), was used since the 1840s for African-American, Native American and \u0026ldquo;pauper\u0026rdquo; burials, but in the 1930s was paved over and turned into a New York City park called Martin\u0026rsquo;s Field, featuring a children\u0026rsquo;s playground. Since February 2007, the Olde Towne of Flushing Burial Ground Conservancy has worked to ensure proper recognition, reclamation, use, and maintenance of the site.\u003c/p\u003e","\u003cp\u003eTo learn more about the New York City Cemetery Project, visit \u003ca href=\"https://nycemetery.wordpress.com/\"\u003ehttps://nycemetery.wordpress.com/\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/247/841/small/french_mary_20201108_portrait_resized.jpg?1723056136","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - french_mary_20201108_full.mp3"]},"duration":1634.544,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/247/841/small/french_mary_20201108_portrait_resized.jpg?1723056136","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/247/841/original/french_mary_20201108_full.mp3?1723056088","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":1634.544,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Full Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Well, my background is—I have Master's degrees in anthropology and in library science. And I've worked in kind of a cross section of things throughout my career in cultural resource management, which kind of touched on archaeological work as well as archives and museum curation. So—and straight library work as well. So a huge cross section there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=0.0,21.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Yeah. So we know that you've had, basically, the way we found you was doing the New York Cemeteries Blog, and you've been working on that blog for like, almost like 10 years now. Like, at least, 10 to 13?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=21.0,30.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Yes, about 10 years exactly now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=30.0,32.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Yeah. So we were curious, what got you into like cemeteries, like, 'cause it's such like, I guess like a very particular and some would say morbid area of interest. [laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=32.0,41.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Well, I mean, having just told you my background, which was in anthropology and the study of cultures, but also having done work that was related to archaeological resources, I had that kind of bent. But then I came here as a newcomer moving to New York City in 2006 and I was seeing all these cemeteries, and I just like, as a person, I just like to explore neighborhoods and cemeteries that interest me. And I wasn't seeing—when I started to look into these cemeteries—I wasn't seeing the stuff I was interested in, like old photos and old newspaper clippings and old obituaries of people. And why would somebody choose to be buried in this cemetery as opposed to this one, if it's one of the large cemeteries. And then some of the ones that were abandoned cemeteries, why were some abandoned and some—so all of these things that I was curious about as a professional and as a person just, you know, a curious historically minded person, and I wasn't seeing so I started to do the research myself. And the original plan was to do a book and then I thought it's going to take me the rest of my life. So I'm just going to start putting it online and other people can enjoy it as well. And, you know, it just kind of grew from there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=41.0,106.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: So then you spoke about like you were having a hard time finding the aspects of cemeteries that interested you, but what were the sort of research avenues that you used to do all the work on the cemetery? Because you have like a lot of blog posts and even just looking at the posts that you have on the Olde Towne of Flushing Burial Ground, and you have like a lot of references. So what kind of—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=106.0,123.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Right, so that was one of the things, I wanted to make sure that it was, you know, something that the public would be interested in, but also my colleagues, other like archaeologists and other researchers, that they would be able to, in the historically minded community, that they could recreate whatever research I did, that they could find those same sources. So it's kind of a blend of kind of academic and kind of public consumption type of work. So the resources I looked at was old historic maps, historic newspapers. Anytime I could get archival documents, but it was really hard, especially with somebody, like I reached out to a lot of cemeteries and they weren't really interested in letting me come in and look through their documents. So, but I've had associations with various places where I did find things like in, for example, in College Point I was doing archival work at the Poppenhusen Institute, which has a local history collection. I found out some cemeteries there. So those kind of things that I've hit upon, but anything that was, I've found primary sources when I could, but most of it's been more secondary sources, newspaper clippings and things like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=123.0,184.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: So then for the Olde Towne of Flushing Burial Ground, like obviously did you come across it like in your research or was it like, were you having to be like, 'cause you know, you said that you've, you just walked around and that was sort of how you also encountered cemeteries—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=184.0,196.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Right, well, I had kind of a starting database. So I should go back a little bit. When I first started getting interested in cemeteries, I discovered that the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission was doing their own survey for their archaeology department. So I volunteered with them to, actually I got some information from them and they got some information from me and I worked with them, but so I had like a master database of like 300 or 400 sites, which included the cemeteries that are still in operation as well as archaeological sites that have been—so I knew about, I just knew it. And I also lived over there in College Point, so I knew, kind of as it, as it being in the neighborhood. So I knew about it. And then I just kind of have a list of things that are interesting to me and when I find an interesting photo, and I think I've found some photos of that one in newspapers.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=196.0,239.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Yeah, we saw old maps.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=239.0,242.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Yeah, and that's why—when I have enough stuff to really like tell a good story is when I usually post them. And I also try and kind of do different things with different boroughs and different types of cemetery. So I think I had enough in that I thought I could finally write something interesting about that. And also I tried to do something that's timely, like when they're doing the—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=242.0,259.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Oh yeah, the memorial.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=259.0,259.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: —work on it now. So I take all those things into consideration when I'm deciding what to write on next.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=259.0,264.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: So then our other question was—well, I mean, would you be comfortable kind of giving like a brief history like of the site?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=264.0,271.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=271.0,271.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=271.0,272.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: So the Flushing Town Cemetery is one of many, several cemeteries that were public cemeteries across New York City. There were three in Queens. That one was established in 1839. The town purchased property specifically for, to have a town cemetery. And so it was meant for indigents and unknowns, which, unknowns are people that aren't claimed usually by family members. But it also transformed over time as you know to be an African-American cemetery. And I think you'll probably talk to Macedonia AME [African Methodist Episcopal] about this, but we think that it kind of became that more when the Macedonia AME church yard—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=272.0,312.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Was filled.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=312.0,312.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Yeah. And so they were using that as a secondary location for their burials. So it kind of transformed into a public cemetery that was used by the whole town into kind of more of a focus on being an African-American cemetery.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=312.0,326.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: And then when the city—when Queens became consolidated with New York City, it was already public property, so anything that was public property owned by a town automatically became city property, New York City property. And so then it just languished as—by then any burials of poor and unknown that would have died in Flushing or that area would have been buried at Hart Island in the Bronx. So that use kind of, became an abandoned cemetery basically. And then what happened was what happens many times in New York City once a cemetery like that was abandoned. The community, like kind of agitated to like, here's this neglected cemetery, it's all overgrown with grass. What are we going to do with this? And so they are the ones that would usually agitate for the Parks Department to take them over and make a [park] out of them. So it's usually the surrounding community that would want that. And so that's, it happened many—many of the public cemeteries across New York City were transformed into public parks. And that was one [example] of how that process worked.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=326.0,388.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: One of the questions that we had, we know that the, what is it? The Works Progress Administration. Like, after it was turned into Martin's Field, they wanted to turn it, I guess like revamp it into like a more appropriate site for children. But one of our group, one of our like classmates, she's doing another project where it's basically almost like a digital map of different cemeteries in New York City, but that have been, that have since, they've like fallen out of use, have become public parks. So we kind of were wondering, like, we know that it, since it was owned by the city, that probably had a big influence on why it was kind of allowed to just be like repurposed for like another like public, for other public uses. But—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=388.0,426.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Most of the public cemeteries in New York City were transformed into public parks and that's—and in Queens alone, there's the Newtown Cemetery, which is a playground now. And there's, in Queens Village, there's Wayanda Park, which was a former, both of those were public cemeteries. And in New York City, there's Washington Square Park and Madison Square Park. So it's very common. You know, what else can you do with a burial ground, right? They either have to dig it up or—should we wait? [pause while airplane flies overhead] So I mean if you look at it from their perspective a hundred years ago, as far as like, what can we do with this ground that has burials in it, that's kind of the least disruptive. No, it doesn't seem be respectful, but if you're looking at just fiscally and serving the community at the time, and it was kind of the least disruptive thing you can do with an old burial ground is turn it into a park.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=426.0,482.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Yeah. And we know that like obviously in recent years, the, yeah, like 1990, like when the famous like burial ground in Manhattan, the African Burial Ground, kinda became like a big issue, so, that was also kind of like the same decade that Mandingo [Osceola Tshaka] started the activism for the Olde Towne of Flushing Burial Ground. But going by what you said, like, just like the fiscal concerns of like the parks and stuff, the other question we had was like, 'cause when we were looking at the post that you did and also like different like historical accounts of the cemetery, so people who were buried there, there were also people that were like victims of like the cholera and—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=482.0,514.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=514.0,514.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: —different pandemics—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=514.0,514.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Right. Oh, go ahead.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=514.0,514.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: No, you can go.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=514.0,517.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Okay. Well, public cemeteries usually served several purposes. And this is kind of, again, a broad statement that you can make about all of them across New York City is they were intended for the poor and the unknown, but also it was a place where you could put people that died of contagious diseases. And sometimes even, and this is a good correlation to what happened with the Macedonia AME, churches ran out of burial grounds. They could use the public lot. So they had multiple purposes. And so that's a very common use was to use it for people dying of contagious disease.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=517.0,549.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: So, I mean, obviously they were saying that the pandemic lasted in Flushing until like 1844, but then after that it became like, I guess maybe the predominant use was for the burials of African-Americans. Do you think there's a relation between like what you were saying, how it was for like indigents and like unknowns, but then for a burial ground that was used for that purpose to then become like, to then be used for the burial of African-Americans. Do you think there's a relationship between like those sort of like vague categories of people?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=549.0,578.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Right. If you're saying, yeah, it's more of the disenfranchised. You can say that, but also, I mean, you could look at like Washington Square Park. That was the large public burial ground. And they did have—it was set aside, places that were set aside for white churches as well as for people that ran out of space in their own burial grounds. So, I mean, you can look at it from both perspectives. So there is examples of public burial grounds being used for other purposes. And like, for example, in Newtown, that was a public burial ground that was set aside from the time the town was originally patented in the 17th century. And all of the like most prominent people in the town were buried there, but then over time it became, as they started being buried in larger cemeteries, it just kind of became abandoned. And then, so once cemeteries kind of weren't used for their original purposes, and African-Americans would be buried there too. So, I mean, yes, there is that kind of disenfranchised element, but they also usually contain a mix of people from the most prominent to the disenfranchised.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=578.0,642.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: So it's just kind of like the natural trajectory of cemeteries at that time. Because we noticed that in 1853, the cemetery right across the street, it's like a private cemetery, so we were wondering like—'cause we noticed that now, if you look on like the New York Division of Cemeteries site, they basically say they don't handle like religious cemeteries, private cemeteries, families, like all these different categories. And they only handle things that are like, I think consolidated under like a not-for-profit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=642.0,666.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Yeah, there are, those are specific non-profit. If they come in under a religious thing, they have different rules that apply to them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=666.0,673.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Yeah. So we were wondering like in the 1800s, so like, well, even now the [Olde Towne of Flushing Burial Ground] Conservancy members kind of like point out to like, there is a private cemetery across the street that is like, still like really well-preserved, but yet then you have the Olde Towne of Flushing Burial Ground, which hasn't been given the same kind of treatment. So like, I guess what would you say in terms—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=673.0,694.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Well, I mean, I don't, that argument really doesn't make sense to me—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=694.0,697.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Okay, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=697.0,697.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: —honestly, because that's a private cemetery that has income from selling plots. And so it's not like it's an archaeological site. It's an active cemetery. This was a public property. So if anybody's going to put money into it, it would be the city, not—that's a private venture, basically a non-profit business versus a public burial ground. So that doesn't really—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=697.0,719.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: But that, I guess that was kind of like my question, which was that, so obviously the public cemetery kind of like fell out of use and it was eventually bought by the Parks Department. So was that like—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=719.0,728.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Well, it wasn't bought because it was already, it would have been public land. Yeah. It was just transferred.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=728.0,733.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Okay. So then one of the things I was wondering, so were public cemeteries in the 1800s, was that kind of like the general—since they were like funded by the state and like the clear, I guess like division between like how private cemeteries could get their own private sources of funding. Was that like really common for private—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=733.0,746.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Absolutely, yes. Oh, all of the—if you're saying were they all neglected? Because they were, all of the public cemeteries were neglected—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=746.0,752.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=752.0,752.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Yes, I mean, many of the small family burial grounds were neglected too. And those were transformed into parks as well because they had become neglected. But yeah, there wasn't a lot of money put into the indigent and unknown, and the other, contagious people dying of contagious diseases. It just wasn't a priority for, and it's still not up at Hart Island. So it's just a fact of life, which is a sad fact but, but yeah, I mean, it's the difference between a public property and a private property.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=752.0,785.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: And then I think one of the other questions we had was about like the, so like, I know you were saying that there was like a fiscal, like that it was kind of like a fiscal motivation to find another use for the cemeteries. But do you know if there's any reason why like in particular it was parks? 'Cause we read like briefly that Robert Moses kind of wanted to create more places for children, but I guess like the—because even Conservancy members have spoken about how now, like when they try to get people, like volunteers, to help them like kind of do cleanup with the site, people are kind of like, oh no, it's a cemetery. Like I wouldn't want to go there. So do you know why maybe the push for them to turn it from a cemetery, which kind of has that sort of like very morbid image, and then to think, oh, this would be a great park for children?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=785.0,827.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Well, like I said, I mean, there's, all three of the ones in Queens are parks and two of them have playgrounds on them. So I don't know that that's a really common belief that you wouldn't want to be hanging out in the park that was formerly—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=827.0,841.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Oh, no. I mean like the—why in particular they chose to turn them into parks, like from cemeteries to, and turn them into parks.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=841.0,848.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Well, as I mentioned, I mean, I don't think there was a lot of options for other things they could do with them unless they disinterred the remains, which would be a big cost to the—and it's, at that time, a lot of them were converted in the early 1900s. And at that time they were, there was a big parks movement to try and have more inner city parks. So, I mean, it makes sense if you look at the whole context of what was going on in New York City at that time. And I mean, the city even took non-public cemeteries and turned them into parks. There's an example down in Greenwich Village where they took a cemetery that was owned by Trinity Church, which is one of the most powerful corporations in New York City, and they just took the property through eminent domain and turned it into a public park. So it's just a very common thing across New York City to turn cemeteries into public parks. And I mean, I think if you're going to do something, it's better than building a building on it or just disinterring things and not being respectful in that way. So I mean, it's up to everybody's individual beliefs of whether a cemetery should be used for something else I guess, but to me in terms of—I mean, there's a huge movement and it just passed that they're going to turn Hart Island into a passive recreational park. So it's better than having it owned by the Department of Corrections where you can barely visit it now. So it's, again, it's open to interpretation based on people's belief systems I guess.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=848.0,931.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: So, going off that thought, obviously, I mean, we spoke about earlier how the Conservancy does have like some issues or concerns with how people are like, maybe like using the site. Like, yeah, it's not necessarily, that they're not using it necessarily as a site for reflection—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=931.0,944.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=944.0,944.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: —but, and also you mentioned earlier how like you've been to places where people didn't even know that there were burial grounds in their neighborhood. What do you think about the, I guess like the push to kind of create like, yeah, like a more, I guess like visceral sense of historic memory at these sites? To kind of like repurpose them, like yeah, make them available for people to walk through, but also like the focus be like to really consider the histories of the people that are buried there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=944.0,973.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Well, I think that's the ideal and it's certainly something to strive for. To have it be more of a passive memorial is a great idea, but I also think the realities of New York City is that empty space is wasted space. You know, vacant land is wasted space. And so anytime you could answer both sides of a question is usually a good thing. So if you can make it into something that's protected by not disturbing it, but also allow people to use it. But yeah, I mean, it's always a balance and it's great that there's things like the Conservancy that are, you know, speaking to both sides of the issue. So, but my personal belief is that I think that parks are a great way of preserving burial grounds. At least they're not being dug up. So that's my own personal take on it. And understanding the whole context of burial grounds in New York City and all of the ones that have been disturbed and dug up over the years, that seems to be the best option, that at least people can use it in some kind of peaceful reflective way and still have an open space.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=973.0,1035.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Do you guys have any questions?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1035.0,1035.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Gabriella Lacza: I think that was pretty thorough. Do you have any?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1035.0,1040.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Kevin O'Leary: That was, yeah, that was excellent. I'm trying to think now if I could ask anything else.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1040.0,1047.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: What's your guys's—I'd be interested to know what is your perspective on it, having seen the different—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1047.0,1051.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: I mean, it was—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1051.0,1054.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Kevin O'Leary: We haven't gotten a chance to go there because it's closed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1054.0,1057.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Well, I am a local. I, it's so funny because Robbie [Garrison] was talking about like how, like what we mentioned earlier, how people kind of have like the idea of like, oh, it's a cemetery. Why would I want to go in there? Or they're like kind of the opposite where it's like—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1057.0,1068.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Well, obviously I don't have that perspective.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1068.0,1070.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Oh, yeah. Kinda like, some people like have like the, it's kind of like a very ambivalent approach. But at least for me, even, so like, I think they renamed it in like 2010, and I grew up in Flushing and at that time I was in high school, and I remember walking around and actually seeing it called the Olde Towne of Flushing Burial Ground with like my family. And we, then we got confused and we were actually like, wait, so can we go in?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1070.0,1091.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Oh, well yeah, so—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1091.0,1091.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: 'Cause like, at least like culturally to like where my parents grew up, you don't, you don't just go into cemeteries. So it's funny that we're doing this project when in reality, I can't even really say I've actually seen the site like fully myself because the way it was, I mean, the way it's named has always given me the impression that it's like, oh, it's very—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1091.0,1108.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: So maybe, oh, maybe it's not, it's not because they were afraid it's a cemetery and they don't want to be infected, but more because they just didn't want to be disrespectful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1108.0,1118.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Yeah. Like it kind of confused me about like what necessarily, what the site was for. But I do think in terms of it being turned into a park, I think it's, I agree with you. Like, I think it's really helpful like, especially because, I mean, like you were saying since these burial grounds are mainly for like indigents or they also happen to contain disenfranchised peoples, it's kind of a good way to kind of like reveal the history that people don't realize is there. Especially in Flushing now where people assume there's like, it's always been a largely Asian population, so it's a good way to kind of make people realize like, no, there have been other communities here before and that are like, unfortunately, when it comes to like the town's history are like neglected. Because even in school, I remember I had like professors, I mean, teachers when I was in high school, that grew up in Flushing, but they would mainly talk about it, oh yeah, like before the Asian influx, it was mainly like a white neighborhood too. So even then I didn't even know that there was like a larger, at least decently sized black population in the neighborhood.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1118.0,1177.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: That was one of the most interesting things, I did Macedonia, that churchyard, and Flushing Cemetery, research them both at the same time. I didn't realize there was such a significant core community that got disrupted when they built that whole parking lot and everything. So yeah, it's like a lot of these cemeteries are just kind of the trigger that make you start realizing what, what the communities used to be.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1177.0,1201.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Yeah. It's funny you mention the Macedonia AME Church because I remember—I went to Flushing High School—when I would like walk to school, I'd always see the church and in my head I'd be like, what does Macedonia have to do with anything? Even [unclear] aware of the significance of the church and, I don't know, I just think it's really cool because ever since we started doing this project, I started like, I guess reading a bit more about like the history of like black communities in New York, especially in Queens. Because even in class we talk about how most people have the idea that from the Great Migration, that there wasn't really a core black community here from like the 1700s or whatever time period. So it's really interesting to learn that, no, it's not just that. They came here from the South, but there's like actually core communities that have been here for like hundreds of years, but because either through like displacement or things like that, we just don't learn about them. So it's pretty cool to me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1201.0,1256.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: It's always like it's preaching to the choir because obviously we're all people—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1256.0,1261.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Yeah, like-minded. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1261.0,1261.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: So it's easy for us to be like on our high horse about like, this should be protected and everything, but then there's also the realities of, of land use in New York City.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1261.0,1270.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: When you talk to people like, about like the cemeteries that are around them, has anyone ever told you like, oh, like what's the point of remembering? 'Cause some Conservancy members have brought up how like older residents in town have been like against like trying to memorialize it. And they'd rather just have like a nice park that they can go through without having to be like reminded that this was once a burial ground.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1270.0,1291.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: I haven't, specifically within my cemetery thing I think I've been enough, exposed to enough people that were like-minded that I haven't. But I mean, obviously just from the fact that so—I know that that attitude is out there. But actually I have a—when I was working, I worked for the army on a cultural resource project where we were going out and finding archaeological sites on army posts. And then we, I worked in, for some administrators there, in a meeting the guy was like, \"Why do people care about this stuff?\" So, I mean, I know that—it's so foreign to us obviously—but I know that that attitude is there. And I guess people, some people just want it, especially maybe—it's interesting, you know, there's a lot of family cemeteries that I've come across, in Queens especially, where they're actually protected by the immigrant groups that are living there as opposed to like the Dutch ancestors or the English ancestors.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1291.0,1344.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: So I think it's maybe something to do with the American mindset that we just want to move on and kind of, the here and now, it's more important than whatever went on 200, 300 years ago. I do think that there is something in the American mindset that—so I would have to know more about these people, the locals, if they're the old timers, but it's something I've seen in even the larger cemeteries that the more recent immigrants, and actually African-American, so they have a more close relationship with their, with graveyards, with cemeteries and visiting and things like that. Whereas more Americanized people—if you want to call it that—don't. We just kind of after 20 years or something, people just stop going to their ancestors' gravestones. Kind of more, maybe an Americanization type of thing that kind of has a disrespect maybe after awhile for cemeteries and other historical things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1344.0,1402.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Yeah. That brings to mind the traditions, like in Central America, like Día de los Difuntos, or like Day of the Dead, where it's like really ingrained like even though they've been gone for like 30 years, you continue to go to the grave and you continue to like celebrate their lives. I didn't realize that until you said it. It could be like an American thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1402.0,1418.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Yeah. You can see it when you go, like if you go to Cypress Hills or like, I went to Mount Olivet recently, or any of the big ones in Queens and Brooklyn. You'll see a lot of Hispanic visitors and African-American visitors and Chinese, and you just don't see a lot of people of German ancestry or English ancestry. And a lot of them have, the ones that were here in the earlier periods have moved on and they've forgotten all about their ancestors that were here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1418.0,1444.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: I guess another question now that you said that, so like the difference between having like a cemetery as a site of memorial as opposed to having a monument. Do you think there's like, and I guess this is only just like tangential, but do you think, at least what you were saying like with an American mindset that let's say like the sites, if the sites had been like repurposed for something else, but then they had like a monument maybe located somewhere else or closer. Do you think those sites would have like, incurred like the same kind of like I guess like feelings of like wasted space as a cemetery? Or what, what do you think about cemeteries like as a space in general that kind of makes people believe like, oh, it's been this amount of time, we can just like let it go now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1444.0,1483.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Yeah. You know what? I just, I can't answer that because I don't know, I don't understand enough about the mechanisms that make people want to just dig up cemeteries. So I can't, I don't think I have the perspective to answer that properly. So, yeah. But I guess I do understand enough about just the nature of New York City, because it's always evolving and people are coming and going. And just the commercial aspect that like, New York City is very motivated by money and land, you know? So I think it's not as historically minded as maybe, you know, upper New England and things like that, you know? So just maybe the mindset of kind of New York culture in general has contributed to it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1483.0,1517.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Kevin O'Leary: You know, it's interesting that you point out there's a somewhat cultural difference in the mindset between, you would say you see more often African-American visitors to cemeteries. Because Robbie said something that was like, I dunno, it was like really cool, 'cause she always says cool things. Like she was, what was it that she said about like, there's no place less scary than a cemetery?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1517.0,1538.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: Well, they're very, I mean, I don't, obviously I shouldn't be speaking for African-Americans, but I have noticed that they're more of a community than a lot of, you know, white Americans are. They're more community focused and so they're more linked to their deceased family members. So I, it seems to be more of a cultural aspect than people that are more, come from a less community minded mindset, I suppose.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1538.0,1570.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Especially, probably because the destruction or like maybe like unintended destruction or discovery of burial grounds is almost like akin to like realizing that their history has been basically destroyed until it's re-found. And then, then they have to like finally combat, like, okay, but we have ownership of this and yet we can't even decide what to do with it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1570.0,1591.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Kevin O'Leary: 'Cause that's, that's the one thing that Robbie brings up. She's not upset, it doesn't seem to me like she's upset from like a very like crude, like, oh, like our history was paved over. It's more like she's, like she says this, the gravestone that was put up there was paid for by an African-American and then it was taken down. So it's like the fact that like they had to invest their money, which they, was hard to come by back then for—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1591.0,1617.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: She's talking about the, the originals?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1617.0,1617.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Lino: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1617.0,1619.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Kevin O'Leary: Yeah. So she was like more, just, that seemed like a more tangible disrespect than—like you said, there's compromises—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1619.0,1627.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841/transcript/69036/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mary French: [crosstalk] their hard earned money went into this memorial and then somebody, yeah. I can understand that. Absolutely.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/132865/file/247841#t=1627.0,1634.544"}]}]}]}