{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/xk84j0cb4w/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Cynthia Carlson"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview \u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eCynthia Carlson is Professor Emerita in the Art Department at Queens College. Born in Chicago, she studied at the Chicago Art Institute and came to New York for graduate studies at Pratt Institute. After receiving her MFA, she was hired at the Philadelphia College of Art/University of the Arts, where she taught for 20 years. She joined the art faculty at Queens College in 1987 and retired in 2005.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cbr\u003eThroughout her teaching years and beyond, Carlson has maintained a prolific and high-profile creative career, with solo and group exhibitions in galleries and museums throughout the country. She has received numerous prestigious awards, including several National Endowment for the Arts Fellowships and a Rockefeller Foundation Award for study in Italy. Most recently, she was awarded a grant from the Pollock-Krasner Foundation to create a retrospective of her 60-year career; the resulting monograph will be published in Fall 2023.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cbr\u003eIn this interview, Carlson looks back at her teaching career, the students she worked with at Queens College, and the intersections between teaching and working as an artist over the decades.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["1960s – 2022 (temporal)","Queens College, Queens, NY; Manhattan, NY; Brooklyn, NY; Philadelphia, PA; Chicago, IL (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2022-07-21 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Cynthia Carlson (Interviewee)","Rebecca Rushfield (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Video"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["http://digitalarchives.queenslibrary.org/search/browse/45932"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u0026nbsp;\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eCynthia Carlson is Professor Emerita in the Art Department at Queens College. Born in Chicago, she studied at the Chicago Art Institute and came to New York for graduate studies at Pratt Institute. After receiving her MFA, she was hired at the Philadelphia College of Art/University of the Arts, where she taught for 20 years. She joined the art faculty at Queens College in 1987 and retired in 2005.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cbr /\u003eThroughout her teaching years and beyond, Carlson has maintained a prolific and high-profile creative career, with solo and group exhibitions in galleries and museums throughout the country. She has received numerous prestigious awards, including several National Endowment for the Arts Fellowships and a Rockefeller Foundation Award for study in Italy. Most recently, she was awarded a grant from the Pollock-Krasner Foundation to create a retrospective of her 60-year career; the resulting monograph will be published in Fall 2023.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cbr /\u003eIn this interview, Carlson looks back at her teaching career, the students she worked with at Queens College, and the intersections between teaching and working as an artist over the decades.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/181/153/small/Screenshot_%28173%29.png?1679938761","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - Cynthia_Carlson_Full_Interview_Edited_Faye.mp4"]},"duration":3467.06431,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/181/153/small/Screenshot_%28173%29.png?1679938761","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/181/153/original/Cynthia_Carlson_Full_Interview_Edited_Faye.mp4?1679938411","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":3467.06431,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Full Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Hi, how are you? I'm just going to do the formal saying [of] date, time, and what. So...Today is Thursday, July 21st, 2022. It's 1 pm Eastern time. I'm Rebecca Rushfield. I'm interviewing Cynthia Carlson for the Queens Memory Project's Queens College series of interviews. OK, welcome.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=0.0,31.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Thank you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=31.0,33.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: I got your, the form that you filled out with some biographical details, and I see that you grew up in Illinois, in Chicago.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=33.0,43.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I did. Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=43.0,45.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: And you did your, I see. And you also went to college there. So...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=45.0,49.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I went to the Art Institute, uh, the Chicago Art Institute. And at that point -- maybe, probably still, I don't know -- we took our academic courses for actual degree at the University of Chicago. And then I came to New York for graduate school. And that's where I remain. \u003claughs\u003e Fifty years later.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=49.0,70.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: So when you came, I believe you went to Pratt?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=70.0,77.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=77.0,77.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: What year did you come here?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=77.0,80.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: To Queens?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=80.0,81.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: No. To New York.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=81.0,82.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Oh, to New York. I came in, let's see, I graduated in '65. So I came in '65 and took my MFA in '67. And that's also the year I started teaching.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=82.0,98.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: OK. So when you came here to go to Pratt, where were you living?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=98.0,105.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I lived near the school. Not on campus, but within a block or so. They were nice little apartments.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=105.0,113.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: New York was different then.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=113.0,121.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: That's an understatement. \u003claughs\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=121.0,122.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Would you like to talk about that a bit just because, you know, the interviews, you know, they're social history interviews too, as well as personal interviews. What was it like being an art student in New York?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=122.0,133.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: There -- Pratt and its surrounding area was very lively and safe at that point. And some years later, well after I graduated, it became a much more scary place for a while. And in fact, I know that because the subway line, which was, I think, the GG train we took to connect to get into Manhattan, was after some time -- that wasn't like that when I was there -- but there was an intense amount of black, terrifying graffiti and razor wire everywhere. And it was a scary presence. I mean, I never personally experienced any harm on the streets or anything, but, you know, you could feel in the air that it was a very different kind of place. And perhaps it's changed to the opposite now, I think it probably has, you know. Goes back and forth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=133.0,191.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Mm-hmm. So, while you were at Pratt, you were there full time or were you working on the side?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=191.0,197.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I was always working. I worked my way through college waitressing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=197.0,202.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Ah, in various places or one place or...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=202.0,205.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Well, I was, let's see, I was at Stouffer's -- if you remember that restaurant-- for a while. I was a Stouffer girl. And then, I left there and I was at Oscar's, which was a very well-known seafood restaurant on Third Avenue and 68th. And that gave me experience like I'd never had. It was the hardest place I ever worked, and it was ruthless. I mean, you had to watch your orders. The other -- the other waiters and waitresses would snatch them right away if you weren't careful. I really learned to be on my toes there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=205.0,244.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Right. But then, when you finished and got your degree, then you went looking for teaching jobs? You had -- had you always intended to teach?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=244.0,256.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: When you say always intended, you know, when you... I mean, like people of my generation, I probably, I was very starry-eyed, you know. I thought, oh, I'll have a bottle of wine and a loaf of bread and live in a garrett in Paris. Yes. And so a reality check when I finished college brought that home. And teaching was the, you know, what we knew how to do. I didn't want to waitress forever. So I started applying for jobs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=256.0,288.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: And where did you end up teaching when you...? Where did you get your first job?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=288.0,292.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Well, my first job was the YMHA in Elizabeth, New Jersey, but I didn't last long because I really didn't understand the difference between the two kitchens -- the dairy and meat, and I went and got still life things from both. That was the end of my job. \u003claughs\u003e In any case, the first serious job I had was Philadelphia College of Art, and I remained there for about 20 years. I started part-time, but it quickly evolved into full-time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=292.0,321.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Did you live in Philadelphia?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=321.0,322.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I never lived there. I commuted.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=322.0,325.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: So where were you living when you -- I know you never lived in Queens. You lived in Manhattan the whole time? Your home?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=325.0,331.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I did. At first I had a little apartment in Chinatown -- one of those railroad apartments, which was $44 a month and the toilet was in the hall. And then an apartment down the hall became vacant and I took that too and used it for a studio. I was there for several years before I got a loft space, which...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=331.0,352.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: So you were of the pioneer loft people?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=352.0,355.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: The what?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=355.0,356.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: The pioneer...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=356.0,358.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: The pioneer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yes, very much so. I mean, loft living was by no means legal when, when I was living in a loft. Not in the least. \u003claughs\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=358.0,369.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: So I'll ask you about Queens College and then you could talk about teaching in general. So, what made you decide to leave Philadelphia College of Art and come to a liberal arts college?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=369.0,384.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Yeah, well, there were a number of factors. You know, I had been teaching for 20 years and I had never planned or wanted to commute. I mean, that was very onerous. And I -- the timing seemed right because I had a pretty good career and I thought, well, it's never going to be better. I have 20 years of teaching under my belt and I have a very good public profile. If I want to get a job in New York, now is the time to do it. The other thing that changed -- and this points to the difference between the two colleges -- is that during the Reagan years, there, the opportunities for scholarships for underprivileged kids basically disappeared. And slowly, I began to notice that the students that were there were very entitled and I felt like I was being treated more and more like the servant class. And, oh, they were smart. They were talented. But there was something edgy going on with them that had changed from the beginning, and I was very uncomfortable with it. And I began not to like the students. And I thought, you know, teaching and not liking students is not a good recipe. So either I have to change schools, or, I have to figure out some other way to make a living. So that's why I began applying for jobs and the one at Queens College. And I was right. It was the place. I was just completely -- started from fresh and loved teaching all over again when I went to Queens.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=384.0,486.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: What courses did you teach in Queens? I know you do installations, painting, drawing. So, were you doing many different courses or were you focusing on painting?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=486.0,498.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Well, we all taught all of the courses going from the first-year basic courses all the way through the graduate programs. And there was no installation class as such, but we also taught seminars. And the seminars could probably be more or less anything we wanted them to be if there was a subject that we was, we were interested in. For example, one of my favorite over the years was a graduate course in public art where I would take the students around New York and look at the various public art monuments. And then they did a project based on, you know, imagining themselves having a commission. And so you could, you know, you could do, you could get into more free-wheeling things depending on the subject you wanted. We basically got permission to do what we wanted. There was not an onerous, what can I say, pass through the department to get it, to do what we wanted. So painting, drawing, seminars, color, design, graduate seminars. Not art history as such, but art history certainly entered into many of the courses","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=498.0,572.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Of your students at Queens, were most of them art majors? Or were there people who just took, because it seemed interesting?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=572.0,583.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: That was the big difference. And, although you might have a similar syllabus from one college to the other, the way in which you taught had to be rewired entirely. Because these students often were taking the course because: a. it fit into their schedule, b. they had a mild curiosity, or c. they thought it would be easy, 'cause it was art. \u003claughs\u003e I quickly made an effort to dissuade them of that. But, in any case, so from, from teaching the converted, you went to teaching the non-converted, and you really had to be an advocate for the arts in the way you presented your problems. And I found that very challenging and lots of fun. To just have to rethink everything, to sort of convince skeptical people that it wasn't just, you know, a blow-off. I loved it. I love the basic courses.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=583.0,648.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You said that you got tired of commuting, but it is a commute from Manhattan to Queens, but I guess a shorter commute.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=648.0,657.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Well, it's not psychological either, because even though it's Queens, it's the same city and it took much less time. I always asked for morning, early morning classes. So I traveled before the traffic got heavy. And coming home, who cares, you know. You, you don't have a deadline. You're not going to be late to class when you're finished. So...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=657.0,678.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Did you take public transportation or drive?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=678.0,682.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I always drove. And then at different times, depending on whose schedule and who, I would, you know, drive around and pick up various faculty that didn't drive and go together.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=682.0,692.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: The big question is, did you have a parking space on campus?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=692.0,697.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Yeah, yeah, we did. We had parking spaces, you know. They were, that was, it was very nice and it was a walking distance and I was always schlepping a huge amount of material. Books and stuff for projects. So I had a shopping cart that I was always hauling around with me. Looked like a bag lady. \u003claughs\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=697.0,717.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: So I'm curious, like, the students you had, did you...? Some of the students who came into your classes for reasons other than they thought they would study art, did you convince or inspire any of them to go further, or...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=717.0,734.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I hope so, but you know, I did have some interesting experiences afterwards. For example, years later, I ran into somebody on the street and he was a dentist and he told me how valuable my color course had been to him in determining the various colors of teeth. Who thought? Who would have thought, you know? So I think there probably was. I mean, teaching art courses is not necessarily about making art, but a way of seeing. Seeing, learning to see -- which is in itself a process. And there's no better way to learn to see than by doing. You know, if you're trying to draw or paint, you understand how complex the whole issue of bringing forth something from nothing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=734.0,778.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Now, in terms of the, the curriculum of the classes, each faculty member was able to teach, let's say, the basic drawing course, as he or she saw fit, or there was ...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=778.0,796.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Queens College went a long distance to accommodate faculty. And I might add -- not the best thing to say -- but sometimes too far. Because I think the students and their needs suffered a bit from,  from that. But the faculty was pretty well accommodated. For example, the way that credits transferred. There were traditionally [in] academia, three credits for a six-hour course, which was broken in two parts. But somewhere before, along the line before I got there, they got three credits for four hours. And that was, that benefited the faculty. And I can tell you, based on teaching both, that it did not benefit the students. You could give them all the homework you wanted, but without that personal contact and, it was not the same. So I thought that was a great gift to us and not for the students' benefit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=796.0,866.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: So how many students would you have in the typical course in order to give a lot of personal attention?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=866.0,871.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Let's see. I would say in a drawing course or a design course, it would go up to 25 or so. Sometimes a few managed to sneak in beyond that, but that was about. And then always a few dropped out, so it probably stood at 25. And then, of course, the other courses might have 15 or 16. And by the time you got to a graduate seminar it might be 10. Something around -- it usually didn't fall too much below that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=871.0,898.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Mm-hmm. And at the college in Philadelphia, were the class sizes about the same?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=898.0,905.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Yeah, they were, generally speaking. But they were more crowded in, at the upper levels because they were all majors. And they were all taking, you know, taking all the courses. You spent most of your time in the studio when you're in a fine...It was the year that I left that the college changed from the Philadelphia College of Art and merged with the music school and got accredited for being a university [ed. note: University of the Arts] -- which is, if you have graduate programs and a better library and a certain academic level of syllabus, you can qualify. It's a rigid examination. It was. It was going on when I left Philadelphia. But they did get university status. But I was gone then. And I liked having a graduate program. I enjoyed students which were a little bit closer to thinking and talking about more intentional or philosophic ideas. That was fun -- for a while. \u003claughs\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=905.0,970.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: So, at Queens, were you and your colleagues in the art department close? Were you involved in sort of the... running of the department? Were you ever Chair, or...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=970.0,989.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Yeah. We were all supposed to be taking turns at that sort of thing, and we merged with the art history department. Now, that happened before I got there. And mainly, the academic fine art faculty was doing their best to not have to be the Chair. And one of the first questions I was asked in my interview -- which was very, very harsh and hostile -- was if I was willing to chair. Now, I had co-chaired in Philadelphia and I ended up being...we had a two-step thing. We had a Chair and an under Chair, but it was called something else. At Queens, I did that service for a couple of years too. I didn't mind that academic part of it. And I could really get into the sort of advising kind of problems that students had. And I came to understand who they were in a very different way. I mean, their problems -- they were not like the college students in Philadelphia, very privileged. I mean, they had really, you know -- taking care of parents who were ill or siblings. And working afterwards or working in family businesses. I mean, their stories were really a lot more difficult than the, than the [Philadelphia] students. And I really liked them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=989.0,1066.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Do, are there any students who stand out in your mind either because they were very talented or very interesting, or they...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1066.0,1083.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Yeah. Oh yeah. In both places. I mean, I still have friends from the faculty and from the students in both colleges who are still my friends that I keep in touch with. Sometimes only by email, but certainly some are good friends and I see them personally. And then there are a few that were not happy with their -- I guess I was somewhat rigid in certain, in terms of my demands, so students that were used to just getting by were, probably don't have very pleasant memories of me. \u003claughs\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1083.0,1117.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: When you came in to the department at Queens, who was there in terms of the art, the studio art people?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1117.0,1124.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Well, Louis Sullivan..Louis Sullivan [shakes her head] -- Louis Finkelstein and Harold Bruder. And there were a whole bunch of them. They were still there. That was sort of an old regime that was pretty much gone by the time I left. And I mean, my interview was like an interrogation. They were...but I was prepared 'cause they, their reputation followed them. They were, you know, they were smart people. They were intelligent. They were dedicated to teaching, but they were rigid in their beliefs. And if you stepped outside of that box, you were not on, on their approved-of method. And I, I wasn't. But I was. Because I was a skilled teacher and I knew how to teach basic courses. And I knew what that was like. So I did do that. But that didn't follow through to the graduate, where they had a lot more independence than they would have gotten from those particular people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1124.0,1186.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: When you say beliefs, you mean, let's say, they believed in figurative art or abstract or...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1186.0,1192.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Not in, in those categories -- although I would say it lent itself a little bit more to figuration. It had more to do with the construction of space and how you did that. And if you, you know, if you, if you were involved with \"the flat,\" it was, it was not something that they liked very much and a number of people were. And then those became anachronistic as categories, you know. I mean, it became wide open by the time I left, so that there was really any number of people on the faculty that had gone completely conceptual. Although there were always those devoted to the teaching of skills. That's what, the students want that. So I'm glad.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1192.0,1242.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: So, everyone who went to the art department as a major had to gain basic skills in drawing, painting, et cetera, even if they went conceptually in their own art?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1242.0,1254.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Well, yes and no. I mean, we go back to that topic of how many contact hours there were. Obviously, in an art school, there are many, many, many more contact hours, so the students are saturated. The determination of how many credits for a major and within that, what precedes what. You know, drawing should precede painting, but it didn't necessarily. I really thought that was absolutely wrong. It depended what could fit in their schedules. So they had to, I think they had to be more driven to be an artist at Queens -- and many were. They wanted to be artists and be, and became artists. That went to Queens College. But they, they needed a little bit more of a boost from, from the, the syllabuses and the curriculum.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1254.0,1305.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1305.0,1306.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: That's my feeling anyway.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1306.0,1310.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: So what was your relationship with the art history faculty, as a...? I mean, were you all sort of in the same building then? I'm trying to remember where the art department was or where the studio art...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1310.0,1325.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: We moved when I was there into a new building [Klapper Hall], and then we were combined. And there were art history rooms and there was a little museum, it was called. And then there were studio rooms. So, I don't know that there were a lot of, a lot of contact, but I had a number of art historians that I was friends or friendly with. And, and I used the slide library often. So there were always art historians in there at those days before the, you know, computers and the different, that don't use slides anymore. But we were all in the slide library, pulling out slides together.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1325.0,1369.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Did, did you, as a studio faculty member, use the art collection of the museum at all in teaching? Or that was something that the art historians, history faculty did more with?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1369.0,1383.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Well, in my case, it was something the art history class did more with. What I used was basically, I took my students on trips to museums. And I did that at least -- if not more -- one time a semester. Which became difficult for some of them because that for religious beliefs they couldn't see naked bodies, or there were, they brought their whole family 'cause women weren't allowed to go anywhere on their own. Women students. And it was a little more complicated to organize, but I did it 'cause I felt it was important that they look at real art, not reproduction. So we always did that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1383.0,1420.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Mm-hmm. So, if I can ask. You were there for 20 years, can you talk about how either the college changed over the 20 years or the art department or students or what was taught or anything? Twenty years is a long stretch of time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1420.0,1438.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: One of the things that remained pretty stable was the curriculum. And I felt that the curriculum was not reflective of art. The general, in a more general way. So I worked very hard at trying to put in another system with, which changed the number of courses that were required and made more in a concentration. More credits so they really know something about what they were concentrating in. All of that, you know. That one thing that was different about the art school than the university -- if one had an idea, if a faculty had an idea, at an art school I could go to the president myself. I could go to the Dean of Faculty and I could talk to them about my idea, and that idea may or may not be funded and welcome. In my case, at the first college, it was welcome. And I started some programs there. At Queens there, it was a Byzantine labyrinth that had this...the pecking order was set and you couldn't take one toe out of that pecking order. So first you had to go to a faculty meeting, and then it had to go to the chair, and then it had to blah, blah, blah. This could take years. And, in fact, it did. And I did get some curricular changes through by the time I left. I think it had been about five or six years or more. By the time that happened, they were already obsolete. And it should have been different. You know, I mean, it wasn't, it's not a good system. But I mean, having said that, I don't, I don't have an alternative. I mean, if you criticize something, you should be able to think of something better. It's just that hierarchical system is deadly. \u003claughs\u003e In my opinion.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1438.0,1543.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: I guess a college like Queens is multiple times bigger than the Philadelphia College.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1543.0,1548.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yes, of course. So that's part of the issue. But that part was quite frustrating. In addition to which you had faculty that were tenured and they were very wedded to what they were used to doing. So you could call the course whatever you wanted, they were going to teach what they'd always taught whether it agreed with the title or not. \u003claughs\u003e Which doesn't indicate whether they were bad or good teachers, just that they did what they were going to do. And that was that, so...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1548.0,1578.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Did the students change over time? Was there more interest in studio art? Less?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1578.0,1584.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: The courses were always full. So, I don't know. I know that some of the Asian students, whose family really thought of [college] as a means of getting a job -- which education in general takes that role now. There were a few students that majored in art that hadn't told their parents by the time they graduated. That was a little dicey. Not for us, but for them. And they were, you know, they were expected to go into family business or become something which could bring a better guarantee of lifestyle to their family. And of course there's no guarantee of that in art whatsoever. You may as well just throw your degree up in the air and hope it lands somewhere nice.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1584.0,1629.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: I guess that's a question I have in terms of, as a public college, where there are probably many students who are the first in their family to get a higher education. And there's that assumption that they're going to do well financially and help the family, and the reality that art's, as you say...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1629.0,1648.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Yeah. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1648.0,1650.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: So...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1650.0,1652.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I -- yes. I became more cognizant of that as time went on. That they were just taking the class. And the other thing that -- I mean, it was a great learning experience for me too, because I went from an assumption that everybody was going to be an artist and everybody was going to be, you know, work their hardest at that profession for the rest of their lives -- even though I knew it wasn't true. In my mind, you know, it doesn't matter whether someone ends up being an artist or not after that time, because it gives you a way of wiring up your universe that teaches you how to invent yourself. I think even in the art school, many students went to art school because they knew they didn't want a 9 to 5 lifestyle. They didn't know what they wanted, but that was somewhere, you know, in the back of their minds. And so, a lot, you know, a lot of rock musicians, a lot of famous rock musicians went to art school and that sort of thing. So, I sort of felt that way, that the, what we provided at its best was a way for them to think critically and to see that possibilities outside of a certain kind of conforming existence was possible -- if they wanted it. I didn't feel that I was teaching people to be artists. I thought that I was teaching them about art and the rest was up to them. Because you have to have an enormous determination after school ends and you don't have an assignment. You don't have someone giving you a grade. Now what? You get up in the morning and you have to go into your studio and nobody cares. \u003claughs\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1652.0,1766.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Right. Can I ask, thinking about you and your studio and your own work and you're teaching full-time, and you have your own art that you're doing. How did you balance that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1766.0,1777.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I don't know. Now that I'm retired, I can't imagine how I did. All I know is that...well, that's one of the things that was good about teaching at Queens, was I went from having to teach three days a week to two days a week. Yeah, I had to come in for meetings and things like that, but it was a two-day schedule. So that allowed more time. And, I just, I don't know. As a matter of habit, I worked all the time. I mean, I probably wasn't. I had a lot of social life, but that was always after the fact in the evenings. That kind of thing. I was just working all the time. It's in my nature, I guess. At my age, I have, I might add, I've slowed down quite lot. \u003claughs\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1777.0,1820.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: When did you retire from teaching?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1820.0,1822.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: It was about 12 years ago. I was there till probably 2007 and then...I took early retirement. I wasn't yet 65 and I decided that I had done well enough that I could probably manage on my retirement and Social Security -- I wasn't sure of that. And some possible sales. It was a little bit of a risk, but I was married. And so there were two of us contributing to the household, so it didn't feel too risky. I mean, I, it was a matter of privilege that I could say I chose to retire, because some people obviously are not in a position to do that. So they shouldn't feel bad about having to teach beyond...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1822.0,1870.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: And thinking about families and money and when you decided to go into art. I saw from your background that your parents were not people who had higher education. How did they feel about, you know, you studying art? Were they worried for you economically?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1870.0,1891.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I don't think my parents...they, very low level. My father was born in Sweden and he worked on a farm and he never had an education. My mother not much more. Very strict Norwegian background. I don't think that they believed that college was necessary. My mother...it's like the opposite of the American story, you know. They, not in a negative and nasty way, but they had more invested in keeping us humble. Keeping to your class. And, I was adopted, so perhaps that accounts, why, \"No, I'm not doing that. I want to go to school.\" And they weren't -- I don't know if they were unable, but they were unwilling to pay for it. And, or if, you know, they just didn't see it as a need and they lived through need. And, so I did it myself. I mean, you know, that's what I wanted. OK, I'll do it. To their credit, they didn't try to stop me, but I don't think they were enthusiastic. And I think what art was, they had no concept. There was no concept of that in our home. In fact, when I was in New York, I used to call -- my mother had passed by that time -- I called my father, oh, every few weeks to say hello. He was quite old. And he was in his 80s and, in fact he didn't hear well, so I would talk on the phone. And when he thought I had spent enough money, he would just hang up. I mean, it wasn't hostile. He just thought that I'd spent enough money and he hung up. So he didn't hear too well, but I told -- I had just gotten my first National Endowment grant and I was very excited and honored and I was telling him about it. And, then of course the time came and he hung up. So, when I spoke to my sisters maybe several weeks later, they hadn't been told a thing about it, you know. And I realized that he thought that when the government gave you money and you didn't have to do anything for it, that it was like welfare. Seeing it as a grant -- which was a privilege -- was beyond his scope of thinking. It just was. So, I mean, they were nice parents. They were good parents. We didn't have terrible things in our family, but they certainly weren't education-oriented.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=1891.0,2035.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: So how did you come to even think about art? How did you come to see art, view art?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2035.0,2044.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Well, I guess, because since I was little, that's what I wanted to do. I didn't know what being an artist was, but I was always drawing and copying cartoons and coloring books and...not terribly adventurous, but it was always just doing this. And when I got my first box of oil paints -- I was 16 and my little group of friends bought me a box of oil paints -- it was the greatest gift that I've ever gotten in my life. I was beside myself. Now I'm a professional artist. I have oil paints. \u003claughs\u003e It was thrilling.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2044.0,2080.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Did your high school have art classes or...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2080.0,2083.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Yes. Yes. I remained friends with the teacher that I had had for years afterwards. Until she passed away, we remained in contact with one another now and then. I think I was her big success story.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2083.0,2098.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: So if, if I kind of go back to like being a working artist and a working teacher and balancing, and...Did, did your -- what you were teaching and what your art and your teaching, did it...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2098.0,2120.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: They fed each other. I got many ideas from teaching and vice versa. I got many ideas from, about teaching through my own art. It just went back and forth and sometimes in a way that I didn't know which was which. And it was seeing students' work on several occasions, which I thought was so marvelous and so -- unconfined, sense of possibility -- that I got very depressed about my own work. I didn't think it was that interesting. So it's always there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2120.0,2158.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Do you think there's a difference between the excitement of a young artist, and then as a more mature artist who's got a body of work behind her that you're either going to develop out of or break away from? Do you think that it's, I don't know, easier to be young and new and not be weighed down by your accomplishments?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2158.0,2182.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I can say...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2182.0,2187.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Young students. You said you, they were, you know, the young students who had these fresh ideas and whatever. I'm thinking that...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2187.0,2196.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: One of the reasons I retired was that I wanted to try and just do it on my own without teaching. And I would have, I just decided that, at my age, how many years more would I live and how did I want to spend it. And I decided, I had taught for 40 years, that's a long time. I basically said what I had to say. And a lot of the students at the advanced level were off in a different direction. I cut my teeth as a humanist, and the younger generation had different ideas about career and options. And I just, I mean, the kind of art that they were interested in -- the performative and video and that kind of thing --which I had minimum skills at helping them with, but I also had an oftentimes philosophical minimal interest. While I could keep up by reading and going and looking, it was not in my heart. And I realized that, you know, OK, if I can do this, I can leave. And they can hire someone younger who is closer to their interests. And that's a good thing. Because I certainly didn't want to become part of the dead, tenured deadwood that I had been always railing against for so many years, you know?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2196.0,2267.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Was there only minimal turnover in the department over the years? I imagine it's very hard to get a good tenured teaching job. And anyone...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2267.0,2276.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: You know, less and less. Now, when I talk to young people, I mean, it's, it's a different world. And their universities and colleges are not...their direction is to keep as many part-time people without tenure as possible. And, I'm really glad that I don't teach now because I would have a very hard time with that. I was in the system and I did teach full-time and I did have tenure. And I'm thankful for it because I don't have the kind of personality that cannot know where my next rent check is coming from. I just, it would make me crazy. And so that provided me with the, with the opportunity to be able to do my work without a great deal of stress about that. Some people can do that. The gig economy. I mean, young people now seem perfectly at home with moving from place to place on short-term basises. I don't think that would've fit for me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2276.0,2339.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2339.0,2342.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: But I did manage it. And I was working full-time at both things. And constantly working.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2342.0,2349.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Do you -- did you, do you have a gallery?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2349.0,2353.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I do. I mean, for many years I had a very big and popular public profile and I had galleries and so forth. And then, you know, Andy Warhol, 15 minutes, things dropped away from what I was doing. And for a long time I was in limbo. Without -- I was always working, but I didn't have any place and I kind of lost my mojo about looking. 'Cause it's a lot of hard work in putting yourself out there and being prepared for constant rejections. And it's not like any one rejection is going to make you run off and slit your wrist, but it's like death by a thousand cuts, you know. Each one is cumulative, and pretty soon it can be pretty depressing. But, in the past, I would say, five or six years, I've been quite lucky to have, I'm involved with a number of very good and important European and American museum shows. And there's some galleries that are showing my work. And there's a gallery in London that is, at least -- I mean, you know, words are cheap, so we don't have anything in writing yet -- but at least interested in showing my work. And we'll be showing it in the, in the upcoming Javits Center, you know, those big festivals and, and then hopefully giving me a one-person show. I have -- he said he would. I have been more...Since all this is going on, I got a big Pollock-Krasner grant to do a book on my work. And that, for me, I have switched from doing a lot of new work -- because I don't have the time -- because I have been engaged in legacy problem, projects. One of them, I am doing a book. It's a 200-page, you know, decent, a monograph of 60 years of artwork -- which is an enormous amount of work. And also rehabilitating some of my installations so that they can be installed by anybody after I'm gone. Which is a huge undertaking and takes months with, you know, documenting, redocumenting everything. So I've had, I've had to spend more time doing that kind of thing and less time in the studio. Kind of frustrating, but, you know, I'm 80. So it's a good time, a way to spend your, your time -- as far as I'm concerned.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2353.0,2508.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: I'm curious. Just -- I'm asking this question because this is for Queens Memory. So they, it focuses on Queens -- the borough, the people, whatever. Did you have much, any interaction with Queens outside of the college?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2508.0,2524.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Some. Certainly the Chinese restaurants. \u003claughs\u003e But, beyond that, joking around, yes, I had a big show. It was actually kind of a retrospective at the Queens Museum. And I also participated, was invited to sit on the jury for a number of commissions that were located in Queens. So there was that, you know, there was that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2524.0,2555.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: If I can ask, which ones? Or you're not allowed to speak about your jury service?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2555.0,2559.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: One was a library and the other one...Oh, I was up for a commission at, where the Queens...fair, the World's Fair was. And there was a swimming pool, the Erdele swimming pool, which they were going to...there were a number of us. They had asked me to do a proposal for a big art project there. It was quite a large project, but it never got off the ground. I don't know what happened, but I had done quite a lot of research and was very excited about the project and disappointed it didn't go through. But that's, you know, the, that's what public art is. You don't always get what you want.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2559.0,2604.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: So you've done a lot of public art.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2604.0,2605.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: So there was a little interaction. It wasn't with the neighborhood or anything like that. And then, of course, the students, who mostly lived in Queens and represented places from all over the world. I mean, you know, I had, I recall, I have a funny story. I had two students from India not long after I started teaching -- Dipty and the other, her sister's name -- they were twins -- I can't remember what her name was, but it rhymed with Dipty. In any case, they sat together, they talked together. Their English was limited. And the first day of class, I gave everybody the supply list -- which was pretty big -- for the, for the whole semester. So they came, they came with all their supplies next and they were drawing. And they are doing the assignment and they both had these little stubs of pencils. I said, where did you get those little short pencils? Well, they had gotten one big kit and divided everything in half. So they each had a half a pencil. They were so cute. \u003claughs\u003e They were very diligent. I've always...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2605.0,2677.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Right. I'm thinking about, you know, art supplies can be expensive. Did that, was that a problem for some of the students and was there funding to help?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2677.0,2688.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I think it was. Yeah, I think it was, I thought that was very resourceful of them. And I think I was not understanding enough about that when I look back because at -- well now, they're skyrocketing as we speak. But, another thing that was interesting -- off-subject a little bit -- about Queens was that all of the students weren't young and there was a proportion of students that were grown-ups. Retirees that were coming back to class because they were interested. Were yes and no in terms of talent, but they were just interested. And at first, I was very disdainful of these older people. But I quickly grew to understand what a rich ingredient they added to the tenor of the entire class. And I really came to think very...I was very grateful when they came to class and who they were. They added a great deal. I had one man \u003claughs\u003e in a painting class who was quite disabled and he couldn't really talk -- I think he had had a number of strokes -- and he couldn't really paint. And he came with his wife who was actually his nurse. And, I wasn't sure what I would be able to teach this person, but he came to class. And the first day of class, she said, \"If he falls, don't worry, he will right himself.\" And I thought, oh my God, he'll right himself? What does that mean? And there's all these sharp pieces of furniture around and everything. But I was very touched because at, you know, he would have to go and rest or go to the bathroom and the students were very conscious of his presence and they would move the furniture out of the way. I thought that was astonishingly sympathetic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2688.0,2801.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Wow. Yes. I'm thinking. Now that I've asked all these questions, you, you had said at the beginning, there were a number of things you had wanted to talk about. And I don't know if you've covered, I've asked you them and you've covered them. But now it's, it's open for you to speak about whatever you'd like.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2801.0,2819.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: \u003claughs\u003e I think I did get most of the things that were on my mind in terms of the differences and, and some stories about favorite students. That sort of thing. Queens was a very big gift to me. I mean, I made a better salary. That art schools are notorious for their poor faculty salaries. And I think I learned to be a better human being because of that. There was at one point a Percent for Art commission for Queens College. And I sat on the committee and we had a number of finalists that were supposed to submit proposals. And we had this woman from Boston -- I'm not going to be, you know, naming names, but a well-known artist -- and she came and she was proposing that the students would sit around on the campus afterwards, discussing philosophy and come to their conclusion about ideas. And she would develop a project with their input. And I thought, this woman has no idea who the students at Queens are. They come to class. They do their work. They leave class. They go home. They have jobs, they have this, they have that. Some are on parole. I mean, this idea of this bucolic campus like Harvard, or, you know, that was just not going to happen.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2819.0,2906.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: One of the problems is the campus, for an urban campus, it is a lovely green campus.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2906.0,2911.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: It is. Yes, it is. And the students do congregate. But they usually congregate, you know, with their own, if they're, you know, one, from one country. They congregate with their people from their own country whom they feel comfortable with. There's, I don't know that they're...maybe over the course of four years, there's, you know, friendships go in and out, but they, they certainly start with the people they want and feel comfortable language-wise and other things. And they don't hang around. They don't, you know, in the same way. Queens was great for me, I think. And I really felt very -- what's the word -- empathetic to the students by the time I left. And, and the graduate students, by the time I left, I was, I really much more enjoyed the basic courses because the graduates seemed to be interested in different things than I wanted to offer. So it was fine to, I asked for more basic courses -- which most people don't want, but I liked it. And I made some very dear friends on the faculty.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2911.0,2987.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: I have a question. Thinking about the basic courses and using models and naked models and students from backgrounds that may be uncomfortable with that. How, how did that work out?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=2987.0,3003.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Well, it wasn't so easy. There were two groups, mainly from the Middle East and very religious Jewish students who were not permitted to see naked people. And I felt, and still feel that a very significant part of a drawing experience is someone who's alive. In a certain way, I could get around that. We didn't have a great budget for that, first of all. You had to sort of do some moving around and shenanigans to get any money to have models. But I always had at least two to three or more weeks of models in my classes. One way I got around that was I rented live chickens. \u003claughs\u003e I brought chickens to my class and, you know, put them all in a sort of plastic trough with some food and water, and they just pecked around and the students drew them. Actually, they all did beautiful drawings of chickens. They got much more tight and restrictive when the actual people came. But in terms of the people that couldn't, I never found a solution to that. They wanted to sit in the other room and draw from someone clothed. I had, I said, I can't have two models. I can't afford that. You can draw from each other, but it's not the same thing. And, I'm not sure you can get an A without that experience. Because I knew the students at Queens were very concerned about getting their grades -- more than I've ever experienced at, certainly at, you know, at the other college where they all act dismissive of that. They're not really, but they acted. And so I ended up passing out the first day of class a paper which gave each letter grade and, and what you needed to do in order to get that grade. And it had to do with, you know, being on time and not too many lates or not too many absences and all that kind of thing. But class participation and discussion. And for some, it was very hard. The Asian students, the Asian women students, you could tie them up and torture them before they would open their mouth. It was cultural. You know, they're just so...you try to figure out ways to make it easy for them to say something, but it's like pulling wisdom teeth, and you learn to cope.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3003.0,3144.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Right. OK. This has been fascinating for me. It's interesting, because I took two studio art courses at Queens because I was an art history major there. And I remember one was, one was drawing, but we always had the same female model.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3144.0,3168.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Oh, you had a model. That was great.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3168.0,3171.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Back then they had money for models. But, but it, I felt much more comfortable because we had a female model.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3171.0,3178.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Uh-huh, uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3178.0,3180.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: But the funny thing is, then between poses, she would put on like a short little robe. And you felt so much more that she was undressed when she was in that robe than when she was modeling. Something about when she was modeling, she was just very casual and comfortable.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3180.0,3199.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Yeah. Yeah. It's a gift to, to take off your clothes and keep still in front of a group of people. But, you know, you soon become very involved with the project and it requires great concentration. The other thing is, you know, when, whenever I had a model -- there's always a bit of fooling around, 'cause art classes are not lecture classes, so they're, you know, you have to keep a little control on the amount of talking and joking around and that kind of thing --and whenever I had a model, it was total silence. You know, there was something about a naked person in the room that just disarmed everybody. And they got very serious. There was no fooling around. They just did what they should. And, and that was a good part of having a model. It was hard for the students that, that couldn't do it. And there was a few people that were so talented and really wanted to draw the model, but there was such a conflict between their religion. And, you know, it's not a place that the faculty can step in and say, you have to do this. They, that, it's out of your domain. So I felt very bad for them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3199.0,3278.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Well, I'm thinking we've been speaking for about an hour. If you want, have anything else to say, that's fine. If not, we've gone, covered a lot. And it's been very interesting and you'll have the opportunity...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3278.0,3293.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: I'm very different. I'm very different from Bob [retired art Prof. Robert Birmelin] who's very reverential and careful in his choice of words. I'm sort of more bombastic as I was as a teacher and I was around the other faculty. So..","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3293.0,3310.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Well, it shows a different, we get a different sense of the department or the classes or the courses.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3310.0,3315.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Yeah. Yeah. The personalities were all different.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3315.0,3318.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Right. But I guess the more interviews you have about one subject, the, the more of a pic-, a full picture you can get.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3318.0,3330.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Yeah. True. Well, who did you have for some of your teachers? Can I ask? Or is it wrong 'cause it's your interview? \u003claughs\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3330.0,3338.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: I was an art history major.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3338.0,3340.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Oh, you were history.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3340.0,3343.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Oh, but the drawing class was with a man. And his -- oh, his last name started with a B. He was such a lovely man. And I don't remember...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3343.0,3353.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Bruder, Harold Bruder?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3353.0,3354.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3354.0,3354.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Harold Bruder. Yeah, I know Harold. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3354.0,3358.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Right. And then for, I took a color course. And I had a young woman and that was the hardest course I have ever taken. We had to paint color, you know, do the color chart. It was hours and hours and you'd think you'd get it, and then one little square would be off and you'd have to start over again painting those color grids.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3358.0,3383.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Diane Karol. Was she there then?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3383.0,3385.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Yes. Yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3385.0,3386.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Yeah. Yeah. I think she's still teaching, actually, I ran into her, I don't know, maybe a year -- well, before COVID, so who knows. \u003claughs\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3386.0,3394.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: But it was such a difficult course.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3394.0,3397.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Yeah. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3397.0,3398.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Then, we had to work with that paper...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3398.0,3400.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Color-aid paper. That came from Josef Albers, that, that course.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3400.0,3406.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: And she was so incredibly strict about perfect edges. And then you go and see Matisse and his edges are torn and they're sloppy and there's glue. Driving us all crazy about these edges.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3406.0,3423.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: \u003claughs\u003e Funny, the things you remember.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3423.0,3427.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: But that was such a difficult course. It had, took so much of my time, more than I think any other course but chemistry took.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3427.0,3436.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: Ah, that's interesting. I actually think that I taught it rather rigidlly too. And, and the students went a little nuts trying to get all the work done, I think. As I've grown older, I've probably grown a little more permissive in that area. Yeah. But I don't teach, so doesn't matter. I enjoyed this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3436.0,3463.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rebecca Rushfield: Yes, I did too. So thank you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3463.0,3465.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153/transcript/42078/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Cynthia Carlson: You're welcome.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/88095/file/181153#t=3465.0,3467.06431"}]}]}]}