{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/wh2d79677d/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Jon Peterson and Dean Savage Roundtable"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 1: \u003c/strong\u003e Dean Savage relates how a Queens College alumnus, Harry Keyishian, became the lead plaintiff in a historic court case in which the Supreme Court struck down the Feinberg loyalty oath laws. While at Queens, Keyishian had seen one of his own professors fired for refusing to sign the loyalty oath.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 2 : \u003c/strong\u003e Dean Savage recalls a homecoming event organized by Queens College alumnus Mark Levy at which numerous alumni shared stories of their voter registration and civil rights activism in the South in the 1960s.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 3: \u003c/strong\u003e Jon Peterson points out that Queens College was fortunate to be able to recruit top-tier faculty when it opened in the midst of the Depression, in 1937.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 4: \u003c/strong\u003e Jon Peterson explains how the fiscal crisis of the mid-1970s wreaked havoc on the Queens College faculty, with many promising new professors let go because of slashed budgets.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eDr. Jon Peterson was a professor of history at Queens College from 1966 until retiring in 2005, and served as chair of the department from 1990 to 1994. Dr. Dean Savage was a professor in the college’s sociology department from 1971 until his retirement in 2019. As a graduate student in the 1960s, Savage was very active in civil rights causes, notably volunteering with the SCOPE Project during the summer of 1965 in Atlanta and in Orangeburg County, S.C.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eIn this roundtable discussion, Peterson and Savage speak to the students in Dr. Bobby Wintermute’s History 392W Oral History Seminar. Among the many topics they address are the history of Queens College’s founding, admissions policies and curricular changes; the loyalty oaths and other manifestations of the Cold War era; campus protests and activism during the 1960s; the fiscal crisis of the 1970s; the diversification of the student body and faculty hiring; and the effects of technology’s increasing role in education.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Collected as part of the Queens College Spring 2013 History 392W Oral History Seminar taught by Prof. Bobby Wintermute, for the college's 75th Anniversary Oral History Project."]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["1930s-2013 (temporal)","Queens College, Flushing, Queens, NY; City College, New York, NY (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2013-02-27 (Created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Dr. Jon Peterson, (Interviewee)","Dr. Dean Savage (Interviewee)","Bobby Wintermute (Interviewer)","Rebecca Rushfield (Interviewer)","Students in Spring 2013 History 392W Oral History Seminar (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Audio"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["http://digitalarchives.queenslibrary.org/search/browse/40522"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 1:\u0026nbsp;\u003c/strong\u003e Dean Savage relates how a Queens College alumnus, Harry Keyishian, became the lead plaintiff in a historic court case in which the Supreme Court struck down the Feinberg loyalty oath laws. While at Queens, Keyishian had seen one of his own professors fired for refusing to sign the loyalty oath.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 2 :\u0026nbsp;\u003c/strong\u003e Dean Savage recalls a homecoming event organized by Queens College alumnus Mark Levy at which numerous alumni shared stories of their voter registration and civil rights activism in the South in the 1960s.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 3:\u0026nbsp;\u003c/strong\u003e Jon Peterson points out that Queens College was fortunate to be able to recruit top-tier faculty when it opened in the midst of the Depression, in 1937.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 4:\u0026nbsp;\u003c/strong\u003e Jon Peterson explains how the fiscal crisis of the mid-1970s wreaked havoc on the Queens College faculty, with many promising new professors let go because of slashed budgets.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eDr. Jon Peterson was a professor of history at Queens College from 1966 until retiring in 2005, and served as chair of the department from 1990 to 1994. Dr. Dean Savage was a professor in the college\u0026rsquo;s sociology department from 1971 until his retirement in 2019. As a graduate student in the 1960s, Savage was very active in civil rights causes, notably volunteering with the SCOPE Project during the summer of 1965 in Atlanta and in Orangeburg County, S.C.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eIn this roundtable discussion, Peterson and Savage speak to the students in Dr. Bobby Wintermute\u0026rsquo;s History 392W Oral History Seminar. Among the many topics they address are the history of Queens College\u0026rsquo;s founding, admissions policies and curricular changes; the loyalty oaths and other manifestations of the Cold War era; campus protests and activism during the 1960s; the fiscal crisis of the 1970s; the diversification of the student body and faculty hiring; and the effects of technology\u0026rsquo;s increasing role in education.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/343/small/Peterson-Savage-aviary2.png?1642154214","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117343","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 5 - Savage_Peterson_Clip1.mp3"]},"duration":62.35429,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/343/small/Peterson-Savage-aviary2.png?1642154214","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117343/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117343/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/117/343/original/Savage_Peterson_Clip1.mp3?1624009773","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":62.35429,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117343","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[]},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117342","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 5 - Savage_Peterson_Clip2.mp3"]},"duration":58.27918,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/342/small/Peterson-Savage-aviary2.png?1642154234","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117342/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117342/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/117/342/original/Savage_Peterson_Clip2.mp3?1624009773","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":58.27918,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117342","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[]},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117341","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 3 of 5 - Savage_Peterson_Clip3.mp3"]},"duration":46.8898,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/341/small/Peterson-Savage-aviary2.png?1642154245","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117341/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117341/content/3/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/117/341/original/Savage_Peterson_Clip3.mp3?1624009773","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":46.8898,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117341","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[]},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117340","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 4 of 5 - Savage_Peterson_Clip4.mp3"]},"duration":99.10857,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/340/small/Peterson-Savage-aviary2.png?1642154253","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117340/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117340/content/4/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/117/340/original/Savage_Peterson_Clip4.mp3?1624009773","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":99.10857,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117340","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[]},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 5 of 5 - February_27_2013_Roundtable_-_Dean_Savage_and_Jon_Peterson_(2).MP3"]},"duration":7954.07675,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/345/small/Peterson-Savage-aviary2.png?1642154262","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/content/5/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/117/345/original/February_27_2013_Roundtable_-_Dean_Savage_and_Jon_Peterson_%282%29.MP3?1624015721","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":7954.07675,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Full Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: I have the unusual distinction among sociologists of having not one but two degrees in history. I was an undergraduate major in history at my undergraduate college, and then I got into a Ph.D. program in history and I completed the first year and got my master's in history.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=0.0,21.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Where was that?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=21.0,22.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: And that was at Columbia in the Ph.D. program, and undergraduate at Stanford. And then I went ahead and I went and heard the lectures by Bob Merton and Dan Bell, the silver-tongued devils, and they kind of lured me over into another, into another discipline entirely. And, you know, in retrospect, I believe I somewhat regret the transformation. I think I would have been a better historian than I turned out to be as a sociologist. But, you know by now that's water under the bridge, so it's neither here nor there. But I do have some lingering sympathy for what historians do. And it's something that came to me early on and I continued with it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=22.0,65.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: So in terms of my association with Queens College, as Bobby has said, I wasn't here in the ’60s. And so what you're going to hear, hearing from me is second hand. But it's been the result of a number of conversations with a lot of people who were here. And so I'll just start right at the very beginning. Everybody knows, of course, that Queens College is on the site of a former reform school for truant boys that ran from 1907 to 1935. And it was the result of Willowbrook-like scandal in the mid-30s that caused that facility to be closed. There actually is a dual set of novels out by former Queens College administrator [Bob Weller] about, a kind of an over-the-top kind of fictionalization of what life in that reform school was like. It's called An Abundance of Devils, and you can buy it at Amazon or somewhere else. And it's fun. So Queens College is founded in 1937. And at the time the college was founded, almost no faculty members are aware of this today, the adjoining property to the east was a ranking golf course. Pomonok Country Club had a golf course that was so good that it was the site of the 1939 Professional Golfers Association tournament. And there have been a number of other relationships. You were talking earlier about Indian resources, Jon. And I just wanted to mention that over in the Academic Senate files, there is a secret file that nobody likes to talk about called 'Indian burial ground, possibly on the Queens College campus.' Administrators really hate to hear the name of this file. But Dave Speidel and a couple of other administrators, a couple of other archaeologists were kind of looking into this at some point.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=65.0,180.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: So Queens College was founded kind of in the model of good liberal arts campuses. And it was a relatively elite campus from the very beginning and continued in that mode. And the key thing about that is that it was free. Just as City College had been free from 1847 on, when Queens College started in 1937, it followed in the footsteps of City and Hunter and Brooklyn and it was free. And so what that meant is that other people came here to Queens College, a lot of people came to Queens College, because it was the excellent and highly affordable [local] choice. And then three or four things happened to transform that. One of the things that happened was that Nelson Rockefeller built the SUNY system, which presented the alternative of an affordable, sleepaway residential campus system. And so students started to go to Stony Brook, to Albany, to Binghamton, to Buffalo. And then another thing that happened is that we got, during the 60s, as a result of the upheaval of the ’60s, there was an end to what were some pretty discriminatory attitudes toward admitting Jews to selective campuses. And I'll illustrate this with an anecdote. Matt Edel, chair of Urban Studies, died unexpectedly, young, in 1990.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=180.0,267.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: And I went to the eulogy and the eulogy was delivered by Stephen Jay Gould, a world famous geologist at Harvard. And Stephen Jay Gould said, ‘Matt and I were friends at Jamaica High,’ they were from Jamaica High, they graduated in 1958 and he said, ‘Matt was the smart one. He got into M.I.T. and Harvard.’ He said; there was a quota on and there was no way they were gonna take more than one or two people from Jamaica High. I went to Oberlin.; [actually Antioch] So Stephen Jay Gould managed to kind of, you know, claw his way back up and recover and do pretty well over the course of his life. But there was a set of quotas. And what the quotas did is that they funneled students to Queens College. So we had remarkable students that were here. The, that was the second thing. The third thing was the advent of open admissions. And that was in response to the very elitist nature of the student body. And so the demographics of the borough and of the Bronx had been changing, massive hemorrhaging of people out to the island and into Westchester County, more and more minorities, more and more pressure to go ahead and open the doors. And in 1970, they opened the doors and you had a real influx of people coming in, many of whom did not have outstanding high school averages, [you] used to have an 88 or an 89 or 90 high school average, which was harder to get back then than it is now. And the consequence was, is they let in a lot of people who were C plus, C, C minus averages.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=267.0,357.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: And so that was thought to go ahead and detract from the attractiveness of Queens College. But it didn't have that impact initially. When I first came to Queens College, in my initial master's class, I was teaching a master's class with this many people in it. [The Wintermute seminar had about a dozen students in it.] There were six people in that class who went on to get doctorates. The talent really was there. And then the nail in the coffin was the imposition of tuition in 1976. And so for a while then, the number of graduates went down, it declined by 50 percent. And then gradually we've climbed back up both in terms of numbers and also in terms of admission standards. And now we're coming back to a situation that I think looks very promising.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=357.0,400.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Now, none of that was about activism. So let me go back and work on the activist part. You're going to hear primarily from Larry Kaplan next week about the 50s. The 50s were characterized, those of you that read that excerpt from Priests of Our Democracy, Marjorie Heins' new book that just came out about the McCarthy period at Queens and Brooklyn and also City and also the Board of Ed schools, kind of, the politics of it, is that the initial founder of Queens College, Paul Klapper, was a generous liberal individual. Everybody loved him. I mean, everybody has good things to say about Paul Klapper. And [then] there were a number of political pressures with the advent of the Cold War and so the president, who was I believe the third president, was John Theobald. And he was definitely a relatively conservative individual and he believed in firing people who wouldn't sign the loyalty oath. Oh, I didn't bring it, I'm going to bring it during the break. I have a copy of the loyalty oath that all Queens College students were required to sign. Between 1947 and 19, 1947 and 1967, you just gotta see it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=400.0,475.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Who was the president?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=475.0,476.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Theobald, his name was T H E O B A L D.  And he was just a, he was a Cold War kind of guy. And so I went into the basement of the registrar's office, you know. Of course I was looking up Paul Simon's transcript and what I really wanted to see was Paul Simon's photograph. But someone had been there long before I got there and they took his photograph. But. I did go ahead and, you know, get his transcript and his signature on the loyalty oath, and so all the students had to sign these loyalty oaths.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=476.0,508.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Now, the story on that is that this young man, Harry Keyishian, saw his professor, Oscar Shaftel, fired right out from under him, right before his eyes, for refusing to sign the loyalty oath [in 1952]. And then Keyishian went on to Buffalo and became a grad student in English. And a number of young faculty members there wanted to challenge the Feinberg loyalty oath laws, and so Harry turned out to be the lead plaintiff [24.8s] because he only had a one year contract. He was in the most tenuous situation [had the least to lose], the other people didn't want to get associated with it and so he turned out to be the lead plaintiff.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=508.0,545.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: And it went all the way to the Supreme Court. And in a sweeping 1967 decision that has been called the most important case, court case in the history of academic freedom, they swept away the Feinberg loyalty oath laws. This is a big deal. And Queens College is right front and center of it. It is absolutely a major, major victory in terms of academic freedom. And it was not only Queens College faculty who got fired, there were three of them, but Queens College students who saw this and then reacted and became involved in the legal case against them. When I think about this, I, I'm so happy this book came out, this is a story that needed to get told again, it got told once by Ellen Schrecker, but it needed to get told again. It's a great, great story. And so I recommend the entire book, it's a very nice thing.\t\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=545.0,594.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: So you had this Cold War period. You have this Cold War period during which there are a number of people who come from, how should I put it, progressive backgrounds, many of them were children of people who were Communist Party members. This is the right borough for it, so is Brooklyn. And they were being very careful. This was not a good time to go ahead and reveal your highly activist leftist sympathies during the McCarthy period. So the lid was on somewhat. In fact, Stanley -- name of the poet, whose name is Stanley, it's not Stanley Kubrick, but it's something very close to that [Stanley Kunitz]. He's a good poet. In 1959, he publishes an article in The Nation magazine called 'The Quiet Young Men of Queens College.' And you know, that's [unclear]. People are a little reluctant to go ahead and be out there doing things and there are scattered initiatives and you can see them in the yearbooks. I'm sure Bobby has told you about all the yearbooks from your syllabi that are online from 1946 up to '52 or 3 now.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=594.0,674.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Fifty-three we have now.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=674.0,676.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: And so then what happens is that you start to have a number of things that kind of serve to get people more interested and make them a little more energetic. I'll tell you this part of how it happened to me because I was one of the people that got swept up. I'm not a flaming left person in terms of the kinds of family I came from, hell, my dad, you know, you voted for Barry Goldwater in 1964. I came from a very conservative Republican family. Very nice man, very conservative. And so I went to college and all of a sudden some of the kids that I thought were interesting, they said, oh, we're going now to protest the execution of a man named Caryl Chessman. And so they are going to San Quentin to hang out all night and go ahead and protest this execution. He was executed, but they had a candlelight vigil. And I didn't go on that one, but I said huh.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=676.0,738.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: And it's.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=738.0,740.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Caryl Chessman, Chessman, and C A R Y L, and I no longer remember very much about the case.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=740.0,754.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: And then there was a couple of people I knew invited me, they said, you know, this was 1961, [actually, it was 1960]. they said, we're gonna go down and picket Woolworth's. And what had happened in North Carolina, black kids had gone ahead and done sit-ins at Woolworth's because they were not served in the segregated South. And strangely enough, that triggered, kind of, it spread all around. And people all around the country started to go ahead and picket this national chain, Woolworth's. And so I found myself out there marching in front of Woolworth's. And then, you know, then we started to go ahead and do various marches that had to do with, with civil rights issues. Sixty one, sixty two, in sixty three, I graduated and I came east [to enroll in graduate school at Columbia] . And then what happened is that there were more marches. And you know, at this time I think they did polls of the people who'd graduated from college and they would ask you if you participated in protest demonstration. and you know, by the late 60s it would be 70 percent of the people said, yes, they had. So it was no longer an isolated splinter kind of thing, that was something everybody was doing. And you could be not very political at all, you'd go there because that's where other people were. And that was one of those kinds of things. So, yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=754.0,837.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: You said, you said, 70 percent of people in the late '60s were protesting?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=837.0,843.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: If you ask them a question in a public opinion survey, 'have you participated in a political protest demonstration?'  they would say yes. And that could be as simple as listening to a speaker out here on the quad. That is a very low bar. But the fact of the matter is, were you to ask people that question today, you wouldn't get 70 percent.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=843.0,864.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: And break in anytime you want, you know, this is kind of free form.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=864.0,867.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: It is...\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=867.0,867.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: And you get to go ahead and whenever something doesn't seem like I've completed the sentence for you, just go ahead and break in and ask a question. So here I am, I'm going on these marches and there were a couple of relatively, kind of charismatic young faculty members at Stanford, Allard Lowenstein was one of the best known ones. And, you know, he had an impact on a number of people. But anyway, I came east and so then I was doing various kinds of marches. And then one spring, in the spring of 1965, there was a recruitment poster and it said, come and do civil rights activity. This is after ‘64 – ‘64 in terms of a galvanizing event which raised the consciousness of the entire generation – ‘64 was it. Queens College was involved in that one, too. You have Andrew Goodman, and Chaney and Schwerner. And that has become an iconic event. And everybody was just electrified by it. It had a major, major impact. You had a number of other people killed and beaten. You had the Freedom Rides. You had a lot of events going on. But 1964 and the killings in Mississippi were really a big deal.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=867.0,946.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: You know, to reinforce that again, two of the names that you mentioned, Chaney, Schwerner, they were Queens College students who went to Mississippi.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=946.0,957.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Now, Mickey Schwerner, his brother, Steve Schwerner, was the dean of students here at Queens College up until 1974. And he left Queens College to go to Antioch, where he had the rest of his career. And he has now retired and he lives in Brooklyn. And we bring him out. we bring him out every now and then. We have little events from time to time that I have come to refer to as 'the presentation of the relic', this is an example of the presentation of the relic in which, you know, people of a certain age come and talk to you about what they did when they were much, much younger. And so in any case, in 1965 in the spring, there was an event, said, come and do some voter registration activity in the south. And it was from the SCOPE project of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Martin Luther King's operation. And I went to the meeting and, once I got to the meeting and they said, are you willing to volunteer to go south and do voter registration in the South? I just, I couldn't say no. I was a grad student, I was supposed to be working 18 hours a day, seven days a week, as grad students are supposed to do, and not take time off for anything. But I said, no, actually this is where I go ahead and I make a change. And so I went down and I have a [unclear], you know, for the summer of ‘65. And then I came back and I was a grad student again and just marched on weekends.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=957.0,1046.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: If you think of all these different protests and different activities of civil rights and things of that nature, do you think it was easier to accomplish these changes back then than they are now?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1046.0,1063.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Well, one of the crucial demographic background factors is the baby boom. So you have all these people coming back from World War Two and they start to have families and they have a lot of kids. And so you've got this pig in a python kind of demographic wave that is kind of growing and surging up. And so what's happened is that, if you define baby boomers as those born between 1946 and 1961, you know, the people that were born in the late 40s, they're coming to college, and the colleges are growing like Topsy. Queens College, when I first arrived, every single year, we added three new faculty members to the Department of Sociology because the college was growing from 12,000 to 16,000 to 20,000  to 24,000, it peaked out at 30,000 people in 1976. And when you have that kind of demographic push, those kinds of people tend to arrogate a lot of attention. They say, here we are and we demand the attention. And this has continued to be the case with the boomers all the way through. And they're going to be demanding your attention when they're old and going around on canes. And they're still going to be a, a very numerous group. And they're going to say, ‘what are you talking about, put a cap on Medicare. You must be joking.’\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1063.0,1136.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: The reason why I'm asking the question is that I get a lot of complaints from people older than our generation saying oh you're [unclear] look what we did. And say.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1136.0,1147.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: It's harder now.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1147.0,1148.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: I don't think it's. There is so much.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1148.0,1150.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: I hear you, I hear your question. Here's my answer. It was a gift and a privilege to be young in those particular times, because, you know, if I had been trying to push water uphill in a time that was not sympathetic to it, you know, I'd have little mini-victories here and there, do something, sort of what I'm doing around here in various little tiny issues at Queens College. But there was something where you simply had to go ahead and make a decision to join what was clearly a rapidly growing and powerful national movement. So we were lucky.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1150.0,1184.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: So you're of agreeing with me that it's not as easy now as it was then.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1184.0,1189.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Yes, I'm agreeing with you. It's much harder, but not impossible. After all, if you look at the history, every 30 years, people get surprised. If you're blindsided, you say, oh, this is impossible, this couldn't possibly happen. Then all of a sudden you look around, you know, the guy next door is picking up a rock and he's throwing it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1189.0,1208.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Anybody that knows [unclear]\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1208.0,1214.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: That's a bad impact. That's going to go ahead and did not help things. So if we go and then look at what happened to me personally, so then I go south and I spend, I spend the summer in the south, and then I continue to go ahead and be involved in issues.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1214.0,1233.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: About four years ago, we had a homecoming here at Queens College that I went to. I've never gone to a homecoming gathering in my life. I would never imagine going to this, but this was a different one.  One of the graduates of Queens College from the ’60s, Mark Levy, he was student body president in ’62, he had a list of people who had gone south from Queens College to do activism, voter, voter registration and education in the South in the ’60s. And there were 40 people in a room and they all sat around and they all told stories about what they did during the time that they spent in the South. It was one of the best events that I've attended. And so, some of them, I went for a summer, some people went down there for two and three and four years. They really, really committed to go ahead and get involved in it. And some of their materials are now in the Queens College Civil Rights Archive, which I highly recommend. It's not a big archive yet, but they have material and it's growing. And there is a recent book out by Chris Bonastia on an effort in Prince George [actually Prince Edward] County in Virginia where, in response to Brown versus Board of Education, the 1954-55 court decision which mandated the desegregation of education, in Prince George [Prince Edward] County, they simply closed the [public] schools and they established a whole bunch of white [private] schools for white kids, and there was no education for the black kids. So one of the things that happened is that a group of Queens College students would go down there during the summers and they would provide education for free to these kids who simply didn't have any schools in their county because the county had closed the schools in a segregationist move. And so there had been continually, there's, there's a number of students from Queens, and many of whom were at Queens College, who had these, desire to go ahead make a difference. And they were provided the opportunity and they took advantage of the opportunity. So it's quite a, it's quite a spectacular history.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1233.0,1361.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: A question, what was the response from the faculty at Queens to their students going?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1361.0,1366.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: I think they loved it, but I wasn't here, but I do know that some faculty were involved. And, you know, in general, ah, the, ah, the faculty, the majority of faculty would be proud that they would have students.... This was an open and shut case, I mean, there was no way to argue that what was happening in the Jim Crow South was not absolutely evil and needed to be stopped. I mean, with Vietnam, there was a debate, you know, with some of the other issues about Cold War, about nuclear, there was a debate, but in terms of Jim Crow South, segregation, everybody agreed.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1366.0,1408.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Of course, this is coming right off of the events of the ’50s you described with regards to the loyalty oaths, which you could imagine faculty members would have been committed to, seeing what we're told, there would have been actively [unclear], they might see their students take a similar stance for social justice.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1408.0,1426.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: I think they would be entirely in favor, yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1426.0,1428.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Was there a contingent, whether faculty, staff or other associated with the college population as a whole with a conservative idea minded that would be anti this movement and what would be their....\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1428.0,1444.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Is your question whether or not there was a faculty contingent that was activist in this regard.?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1444.0,1452.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Just the community-wide... [unclear]\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1452.0,1453.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: There, there was an NAACP chapter.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1453.0,1457.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: No...\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1457.0,1458.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: The other way.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1458.0,1460.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Right. Conservative money.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1460.0,1461.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Yes. Actually in the LaGuardia archive, you have the residual remnants of that. And that is a set of microfilms that talk about some hearings that were held. And the complaint was on the part of some Catholic faculty that they were being discriminated against in terms of promotion and tenure and that had been an ongoing issue for quite some time at the college and there are a number of traces in the archives here and there. But I would go to LaGuardia to look that up. I've always wanted to go and look at the transcripts of the hearings and I've never done it. So, yes, there was, there was, as always is the case, there was a range of opinion among the faculty and it would vary, you know,\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1461.0,1502.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Is there any you know, whether physical or, or…\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1502.0,1508.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Confrontations.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1508.0,1509.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Confrontational.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1509.0,1510.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: So here's the confrontation part of it. In 1969, the students took over the academic tower, OK? They took it over in Cornell with guns.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1510.0,1518.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: This is on the war.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1518.0,1519.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: This was on Vietnam. No, it was not civil rights. There was no disagreement, I would argue, about getting rid of Jim Crow.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1519.0,1526.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Were there faculty at Queens that would argue...\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1526.0,1527.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: I wasn't here, so I can't tell you.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1527.0,1530.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: But I would say there wasn't. It was just unimaginable.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1530.0,1531.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: There was no course we could do that [unclear]\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1531.0,1536.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: I would say that even among northern conservatives, there was a tacit sense of what was going on down south was extreme, it was too far and too much.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1536.0,1550.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Their ideology, it was way too extreme.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1550.0,1554.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: I would say that the view of northern conservatives, it would have been, but I wasn't there. So,\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1554.0,1560.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Well, the southern, the strategy of the civil rights is partly to create incidents that shocked the North. Because this stuff played out on national television.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1560.0,1571.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: International television.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1571.0,1572.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: And you just saw these things happen, dogs attacking people in Birmingham, dismal stuff to watch.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1572.0,1578.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: It's also happening during the Cold War when the United States is trying to present itself as being different and more liberal, more humanistic than their Soviet counterparts.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1578.0,1591.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: And so after Chaney, Goodman, Schwerner, everybody going south knew that, you know, it could be their turn and they didn't think it was gonna happen, we were young, but we acknowledged the possibility, but that was accepted as part of the risk. And when I was in South Carolina, we did a stupid thing. We went ahead and [saw a] poster advertising a meeting of the Ku Klux Klan. So what did we do? We all went to the Klan meeting.  If you go to the Dean Savage Papers in the Queens College Civil Rights Archive, you'll see the burning cross. We've got pictures of the burning cross.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1591.0,1630.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: You're lucky you're not on it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1630.0,1630.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: You go into the archives, and so, and here's the astonishing story: we were the contingent from Columbia University, and so they, one of the people who was a volunteer, actually is currently teaching in the Department of History [here at Queens College]. And he, during his entire career, happened to be the Hillel Rabbi at Queens College, that was Moshe Shur. He wasn't Moshe Shur when I knew him in South Carolina in 1965, he was Mickey and he was a dead shot from center court, and that's how he's kind of got the allegiance of all of the African-American kids. And so imagine my stunned surprise when it turned out that both Moshe and I wound up spending our careers in this institution. And so he keeps talking about, running a bus tour on the route of the Freedom Rides and taking a bunch of Queens College students on a tour around the South, that would be a pretty interesting tour. [This tour has now happened each winter, for a number of years.]\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1630.0,1690.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: So in any case, the confrontation, as Jon points out, came later, and that was with respect to Vietnam. And the students took over, they took over the top floors of Kiely. If you go up the stairs in Kiely, it's easy to go up the stairs and get into any floor until you get to the eighth floor. From the eighth floor up, you can't get in unless you've got a key. I wonder where that came from. That happened because that's how the students got in and took over the building\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1690.0,1723.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: We're going to hear more about that next week too, from Frank Warren.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1723.0,1725.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Frank will tell you about, Frank was the, I won't go on then, because Frank is the ideal informant. He was there. And when you're going to be interested about the tensions between various faculty factions, Frank was the intermediary. He was the interlocutor who kind of tried to get people to talk to each other, and that was difficult. So.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1725.0,1746.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: Just on that episode, I was a child, well, young and living in the neighborhood, and I remember it was a Friday afternoon and at the [unclear] in the bay, there were police ringing the entire campus.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1746.0,1759.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: They brought the tactical police force in.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1759.0,1761.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: I remember seeing the police all around the campus.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1761.0,1763.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Twenty-eight buses.\t\t\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1763.0,1764.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Twenty-eight buses?.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1764.0,1768.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: That's what one colleague [Prof. Frank Merli, of the history department] told me. And I can remember them streaming, in formation, it was very impressive with their clubs in hand. [Actually, twenty-nine buses.  See Jon A. Peterson, \"Queens College: A Brief History of its Growth,\" in Jon A. Peterson, ed., A Research Guide to the History of the Borough of Queens: Bibliography, Chronology, and Others Aids (Brooklyn Union Gas: Department of History, Queens College: 1987), 38.]\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1768.0,1776.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Clubs and shields, yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1776.0,1776.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: What was the result of that?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1776.0,1780.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Well, what the students were demanding in this particular event, oh, there was no massacre the way there was at some places, you know, I mean, some places they've beat up a lot of students and they injured them severely. That did not happen here. It was a relatively inconsequential outcome in terms of physical violence. But there, you know, people were not quite sure what to do about various kinds of student uprisings.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1780.0,1812.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: You mentioned students were demanding, what were they demanding?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1812.0,1816.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: It was partly a protest on Vietnam, but it also had a lot to do with open admissions. There was this big pressure to go ahead and admit more minorities to Queens College. And there had been, if you go through the yearbooks that Bobby has helped to put up,\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1816.0,1832.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: You see only two or three. .\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1832.0,1834.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: You don't see very many minority faces. And, you know, then it changes. All of a sudden you start to get significant numbers. Now, the chief beneficiaries of open admissions at CUNY, outlined in excellent books by David Lavin and Paul Attewell [coauthors included Richard Alba, Richard Silberstein, and David Hyllegard] were white Catholic working class kids. They were the main ones that got in.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1834.0,1852.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: But a lot of minorities got in too.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1852.0,1855.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Which minority was most prejudiced [unclear]?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1855.0,1858.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: You can't say that about a minority. What you can say is that each minority would include a range of opinions and some would be prejudiced and some would be, you know, having completely different views. I would not be, I would be very careful to go ahead and offer an answer to your question.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1858.0,1877.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: All good questions. Hand up in the back.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1877.0,1886.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: [Unclear -- could have been 'who asked the police to come on campus?’]\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1886.0,1889.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Somebody on the campus. I don't remember. Frank will know the story.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1889.0,1891.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: We'll hear more about that next week.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1891.0,1893.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: It'll be a university official.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1893.0,1896.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: We want to wrap up Dean a little bit, I know he's so much more to say, but Jon's with us as well as with the time equally between them.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1896.0,1903.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: So I, I, two more sentences. So I selected my dissertation topic, the key requirement in choosing my dissertation topic was that it would require me to be living in Paris, France. And I was successful in my quest. I was studying the French business elite, had to live in Paris. And so I arrived in Paris in the spring of 1967. In 1968. they had a general strike, the like of which has not been seen in the 20th century. They had the equivalent of what in this country would have been 40 million workers out on strike. In France, it was 10 million workers out on strike. The economy ground to a halt and it lasted for six weeks. And, you know, de Gaulle had to kind of go off to a military base on the German border and come back. And then, of course, the students thought they were going to make the revolution. And, of course, that turned out to be sadly mistaken. But, you know, just as I had managed to go ahead and get arrested in South Carolina, in Orangeburg in 1965, I made another mistake and got arrested in, in Paris in May ‘68. And so, you know, those are good stories that I like to recall. So you have a chance to get arrested for the right cause, don't hesitate. You'll remember it with great [unclear].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1903.0,1985.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: What were the charges?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1985.0,1985.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: The charges in South Carolina, we were protesting the slowdown of the voter registration process. And so we all did a sit down strike, and we thought we'd call the state police, and we thought they'd come to our aid. No, they came and beat us up and dragged us around and all that. So that was how naive we were. And then in Paris, the students, the really active French students, I was mainly an observer, but what happened is they were off, they were pulling up the paving stones and building barricades and throwing Molotov cocktails at the police. They were, were a serious group. And so what happened is that we made the mistake of thinking it was safe to go home at 5 o'clock in the morning after one of these nights of the barricades, they had three of them, and oh, that was a mistake. The tactical police force known as the Companie republicaine de surete. They were out there waiting for people and anybody they saw, they just grabbed them up and took them off to jail for 24 hours. So I don't even know what the charge was. I was out.\n\t\t\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1985.0,2050.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute But you weren’t deported, were you? \t\t\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2050.0,2053.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage:  No.\t\t\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2053.0,2055.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Before Dean leaves, do you have any questions for him?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2055.0,2057.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: So I'm gonna go get two documents. OK, go ahead.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2057.0,2063.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Your father is concerned about all this?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2063.0,2066.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: How? I beg your pardon, 'father'? Oh, my parents begged me not to go south. They were, they were, my mother was, I think, near tears, because of the danger. And on the other hand, ah, it was, they didn't like it a lot, but I was, when I was, I, I took a year off between my sophomore and junior years when I was an undergraduate and with three friends, we drove, we drove a Volkswagen bus from Germany to Nepal, and I spent that year going around the world. So I wasn't taking orders from, you know, the family anymore, at that point. So it was like, it was, it was my call, I got to do it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2066.0,2113.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: Can I ask for clarification about Open Admissions? My recollection of those days was that Open Admissions gave everyone a place in a city college, but that Queens was still pretty elitist.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2113.0,2127.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: You had to be in the top 50 percent, right. But, but it was a very lenient entry standard at first. It was still you had to be in the top 50 percent of your high school class. And then they said, oh no, this was not working because people were coming in and they were having, and then this is all documented and in Dave Lavin's books. And then they raised it to the top 35 percent. And then, since then, they have raised the standards more. In 1998, they said, OK, if you fail any of any of the three tests, the reading, the writing and the, the math, you go into a two-year college and now they're having minimum SATs. So, I mean...\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2127.0,2167.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: It's gradually creeping up.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2167.0,2168.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: So it was never complete open admissions for any high school graduate. That was never the case.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2168.0,2174.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Do you think the, what do you think is better? Extremely hard requirements? That or the open admissions, what do you think is better for the school or society?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2174.0,2187.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Well, here's my story that I tell my students in my senior seminar on inequality in higher education. There are two economists at Santa Barbara, [Philip] Babcock and [Mindy] Marks, who have done, I think, the best study out there on the number of hours that American undergraduates devote to their studies outside of class. And they have 50 year trend data. And it has been a remarkable decline and not just at Queens College, but everywhere in the country, with the possible exception of Swarthmore and M.I.T., going down from fifteen hours a week down to something between five and seven and a half. So I'm a very conservative guy on this one, I'm an old line conservative. I believe that people should read more and that they should write more and that they should work harder. And, you know, that's just where I'm coming from.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2187.0,2238.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Do you think the declining hours because the technology, because back then [students spent] more hours in the library, so now it's easier to find information.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2238.0,2249.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: These are self reports from students on how many hours a week they devote to their studies. And you can see data, if you go to the CUNY Institutional Research website, the Student Experience Survey has questions on how many hours students study per week. And you'll see overall it's not, it's not particularly high. Now, why has this decline happened? That is a complicated question. Ah, Christopher Winship has an article called The Low, Low Contract, and the idea is the following: that faculty mainly want to do their research and they don't want to spend too much time teaching, and students don't want to be bothered too much by faculty with requests, and so they make a mutual accommodation not to bother each other too much, and this has gradually led to a relative decline in what's being.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2249.0,2299.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: I never got that memo. I've always got time.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2299.0,2303.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: I should stop because otherwise, I want to get two documents. I got two documents. One, I'm gonna get the loyalty oath because you guys gotta see this loyalty oath. I'm going to make a copy for everybody. And the other one, I'm going to give you the trend graph that gives you the history of Queens College grading from 1946 on, so you can see how politics affects grading. It's a remarkable document. I'll be back very... I'm here with John McCormick anti [unclear] hero\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2303.0,2328.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Wow.  Well Jon, why don't you just jump right in.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2328.0,2339.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Ah, sure. What I'm going to report will be a more mundane history of the school. I was not caught up in these movements to the extent Dean was. On purpose. I'm going to take this jacket off. I wore the jacket in because every class I ever taught at Queens College from 1966 to my retirement, the last class I taught was the Spring of 2004, I wore a jacket and a tie. A few older faculty, you'll see that. And I don't think it's very common any more. So since I'm hot I’m taking it off.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2339.0,2375.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: I wear a natural tuxedo. I don't know.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2375.0,2380.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: OK. But that does make a point, it was the common dress back when I started in 1966, I taught here in 1966 to 2004, technically to 2005, anyway, 38 years of teaching. Here's what I'm going to do. I am going to talk a little bit about my personal backgrounds to have [give you] some perception of who I am, what [background] I came from, [and] a little of my own education. I want to talk about what the school was like when I arrived. I'll sketch some of the same areas you heard about, from a different vantage perhaps.  And then I want to try to talk about the 1980s and 1990s.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2380.0,2427.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: I will say in advance that prior to the ’80s and during the period I was here, there were two really enormous shaping events. One was the student upheavals, which we've touched on, climaxed with the occupation of the tower, but which lingered on for another year or so. That really shook the school and the history department particularly. Frank Warren and his close friend and colleague Mike Wreszin [both members of the History Department] were very much identified with the left and even if they had some negotiating role among the demonstrators, they were over there. But there were others in department who were all ultimately opposed to what they were doing, and it left permanent marks in the department. I'm going to talk about that later. The other big event was the fiscal crisis in the middle ’70s, which actually devastated the school. I want to talk briefly about that, very important. But in the ’80s and ’90s, there were no events of comparable magnitude where you could say the whole institution was shaken to its foundation or fundamentally put on a new path. It was a period of more incremental change, less exciting, but a lot of things of importance nonetheless happened. I'll try to sketch a few of those. All right. So, excuse me if, I would be happy to talk louder.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2427.0,2524.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: No not louder, you said the student upheavals were in the ’60s, right?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2524.0,2529.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Well, Dean Savage was talking about first, his involvements with the civil rights movement. They climax in the first half of the ’60s and you get the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Voting Rights Act and so on. And then 1965 is when the Vietnam War really began to become a war of significance and gradually, students reacting to it built up a passionate antiwar response. A big part of which -- and this is really, I think fundamental, is the fact that all students in that era faced the draft. You not only were protesting  something you thought was morally wrong, but you really were worried that you would get drawn into that war, literally drawn into that war.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2529.0,2584.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Were there females in the school at that time?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2584.0,2587.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Oh, yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2587.0,2589.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: There had always been women at school.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2589.0,2591.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: I could go into that a little bit. But yes, right from the get-go, this was a coeducational school. We almost became a women’s college during World War II, the draft pulled so many men into the war, it was 80 percent maybe.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2591.0,2604.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: I remember when Arnold was here, we were talking about that. If you were to take a look at some of those yearbooks which we have online, you'll see maybe 10 men in a class of 300. You saw that, right?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2604.0,2623.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Not a very good ratio. Now, I'm going to talk about myself a little bit about my education, the college, some of the areas that you’re really going to focus on  those [other] speakers; then I'll say some things about some developments in the 80s and 90s. I don't come from [a conventional background or one that most Queens College students experience]. First, I was born in 1935. That means I completed my education before Dean, I wasn't as swept up in the kind of movements he describes. In my circumstances, this is, these are the facts, are different from, not necessarily most faculty, but from a lot of you. I was born in Columbus, Ohio, my father [Alvah Peterson] was a full professor at Ohio State University in the field of entomology, he studied insects, so he's a biological scientist. He was very eminent in his field; he developed a two-volume classification scheme for the identification of larvae of insects. He had students from all over the United States and even from Egypt, Egypt, India, China. And he was president in the early ’50s of the American Entomological Society. Ultimately, he was given a distinguished degree from Ohio State University before he retired.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2623.0,2708.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: My mother [Helen Hoff Peterson] fulfilled all the functions of a housewife in that era but she was really a unique person. My father was from [Galesburg,] Illinois, she had grown up in [Neshanic, a small village in rural] New Jersey and was the oldest daughter of a family of 12 children. [Her] father, who was a poultry farmer but on a pretty big scale for his day, not the scale you’d find today, that is he had maybe flocks of about 2,000, but he was considered something of a pioneer [especially in the incubation and sale, by railway express, of day-old baby chicks]. She's a very bright girl, went to Pembroke [the women's adjunct to Brown University] because her teachers thought she should go to college, no one in the family had ever gone to college before. She got very interested in the YWCA and was involved with it as a young woman, married my father in 1928, then got a master’s degree [in history from Ohio State University] after he came to Ohio State from [Rutgers University in New Jersey]. My father came there as full professor. he was much older, he was 39 when he married [and she was 26]. She threw herself into volunteer work, was very active on various civil rights causes, lobbied before the Ohio legislature [for the AFL/CIO on wage issues -- on the Ohio Minimum Wage Commission and was the first woman in Ohio to hold such an office.] was at one point on the national board of the YWCA. Toward the end of her life [in 1991], a governor in Ohio named [George] Voinovich put her on the list in the Ohio Women's Hall of Fame. So she really had a quite remarkable career. There are a lot of other things I could mention.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2708.0,2804.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: All right. So this meant, you know, I'm growing up, I grew up in a, well, what sociologists would call an upper middle-class white Protestant suburb. What did that mean? Well, this is a suburb of people, mostly of professional backgrounds, college professors, engineers, owners of small businesses, lawyers, that sort of thing. All my friends were of that kind of background. For example, one of my best friend's father was independently wealthy, spends time going to downtown Columbus and watching the stock tickers. He knew incredible amounts about companies in the United States. Another friend of mine was, his father was an accountant for the local telephone company. Those are the types in this community. All right, so I was a very good student in high school. Very artistic. Also academically inclined. And because of those skills if you want to call it that and my and interests and my background, I did go to Swarthmore College.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2804.0,2875.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Smart ass college.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2875.0,2877.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: And I really jumped into the academic regime there. In the ’50s, at that school, (I sent my son there too) it was extremely intense. They had a seminar program which you took if you were qualified in the last two years, I don't want to go on at length, but it was a [major] part of my background so I should say something about it. The seminar program was such that in your last two years you took no courses whatsoever,  you took two seminars a semester.This would be like a seminar, except that in this seminar, you would write a paper every other week of about seven to ten pages for that seminar, on a list given to you by [your] professor, and then on your off-week, you wrote for the other seminar. So for two straight years, you wrote a paper a week. They're not very good papers because you [wrote them the night before in a rush and] you had to make copies for all your peers in your seminar. So you go through this regime and then at the end of two years, they got outside examiners, not your professors, who came and drew up the exam. You took each exam for three hours and then the [outside] professors read it. Then they came to the campus and gave you an oral exam. I went through twenty-seven and a half hours of testing to prove that I had passed this program. [No other college in the United States had a program like this; it was more difficult and stressful than anything required of me as a doctoral student.]\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2877.0,2961.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: From there, I went to Ohio State, got a master's degree, focused on American history. My family had connections to Ohio State. And then I went to Harvard for my Ph.D. I was always interested in American social and economic history. I studied with a man named Oscar Handlin, who was eminent in those years in the field of immigration history, but he was a man with enormous breadth in social and economic history and I very much admired that. My own interest, partly because of this artistic strand, which I mentioned a while ago, I got interested in city planning history and devoted myself to what became a career study of the beginnings of city planning in the United States, which eventually was a book which took 40 years to produce. All right, so at the point I came to Queens College, I was hired to teach immigration history. So I arrived in 1966 and now we get into some of the things that Dean talked about. The school was founded in 1937. The founding spirit and very much the shaping spirit was this man, Paul Klapper, who Dean also mentioned. Klapper set up a very rigorous curriculum, not like the one I just described at Swarthmore, but the students here in the ’40s and ’50s [took only required courses] and this was all required of you, you couldn't get out of this if you came here, took a prescribed regime of liberal arts and sciences courses such that, when you are done with your sophomore year you took a comprehensive exam in those subjects and then you went into your major, and then to get out of here you had to pass a comprehensive exam in all the material you took as your major. And the testing, I don't know what the system was like. It was gone when I was here.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=2961.0,3075.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Like the CPE [CUNY Proficiency Exam]?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3075.0,3075.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Much more rigorous than the CPE. The CPE is defunct.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3075.0,3083.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: [Unclear] [unclear]\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3083.0,3087.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: No, this is a demanding program which structures your whole career path in the college. You only get a little bit of elective flexibility at the very end. Yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3087.0,3102.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Liberal arts and what else?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3102.0,3104.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: And sciences. You had to have courses in the social sciences, the humanities and the sciences in this program, and you can actually get a collection of the old catalogs and see it all outlined. Students actually went through it. The remnant of it, when I got here in 1966 and this very much involved the history department, there still remained the practice that every student, every Queens College [student] whether you’re in the sciences, no matter what you're in, had to take a course called Contemporary Civilization  Basically, this was a [two-semester] survey, sometimes characterized as ‘From Rome to Roosevelt.’ We looked at the full sweep of Western history, reading historical documents from readers compiled at Columbia University, where these courses had been first conceived. And they were excellent, an excellent selection of documents. And then it fell to the young professor, like myself, to somehow guide people through these documents and provide historical context as you went. But the result of this is that every student had read a smattering, and it wasn't much more than that, of Plato, of Aristotle, of Aquinas, of Martin Luther, of John Calvin, of Ricardo, of Adam Smith, you knew all the classic names throughout, for the full sweep of Western history.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3104.0,3193.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: And I had the same class at my college.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3193.0,3194.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Yeah, yeah. These were common courses. But the great benefit of that from the teacher's point of view, was that say I'm teaching a course in American history and I’ll refer to laissez faire or the iron law of wages, or to certain philosophical concepts, say to Descartes, students at least had heard of these names and there's some resonance, I don't mean you had a crystal clear idea. I once talked to a student who had come to the school and who later batted about and ended up working at Sotheby's, the auction house, he said 'the most valuable course I ever took at Queens College was this Contemporary Civilization, it gave me a sense of the structure of Western history. And he drew on that, he said, all the time when he was evaluating art materials that came into Sotheby's. And many students later recalled this as a course they didn't want it, it was forced on you, and yet they got something out of it. Of course, like everything, there would be some room, probably [unclear]. All right, so that was in place, I taught in it, mostly staffed by members of the history department and the philosophy department because a lot of these documents were philosophical documents.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3194.0,3271.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: A few other observations, the college was founded in 1937 and one of the reasons it was founded is the borough itself had burgeoned in population in the 1920s and it gave real political weight to the borough. So when [Judge] Colden and others who were moving forces in getting this reform school shut, they had a secondary agenda of using the grounds as college grounds. But the college as an institution reflects the weight of this tremendous growth in the borough of Queens in the 1920s. That growth continued of course in the 1950s and ’60s. The school keeps growing since the end of the ’60s [’50s] with about 10,000 ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3271.0,12.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":" students, but it had doubled in the ’60s as this Baby Boom generation hits. So I arrived in the middle of the Baby Boom generation. Now the initial faculty, the faculty hired in 1937, was a very good faculty. Paul Klapper, remember it’s the middle of the Depression, there are a lot of academics who didn't have jobs but were very well trained. So he had in a way the pick of the faculty in the United States. I always thought this is a critical fact about Queens College from the get-go, it has had the good fortune [to start out with] just superb faculty. And once you get that in place, they tend to perpetuate themselves. You can lose it if the salary structure isn’t as appealing as other institutions. At the point I came in we had one of the best salaries in the United States, because of union negotiations and other things. OK, so I came into what I thought was a very good department, although at the time I thought this was a good first job, so I spent 38 years at it. The ’60s, just as Dean said, was a period of tremendous amount of hiring. I was looking at, before coming in here, a list of faculty in the department in 1983. There were 29 faculty. Only two of them came from before 1959. They will represent the older department. All of them, beginning 1959 through 1968, had been hired in that [10-year] stretch and there’s been no one, there’s no one on the list hired after 1968 and this is 1983. So there’s a chunk, a huge chunk of people in the department that defined a whole era of the department’s history, was essentially hired from 1959 through 1968. I came right in the middle of that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=12.0,3444.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Well, we were hiring maybe two, three, sometimes four a year, so that created a new department, staffed by people like myself coming out of graduate schools like, especially Columbia, was very well represented here, but a scattering of other institutions, another from Harvard, some from Wisconsin, Berkeley and so on. We had a very strong department and we offered a quite diversified, although very traditional curriculum. Ancient history. medieval, modern. There was not yet the sense of world history. We didn't have anything on Africa. Asia was a little bit developed, but not much. It's classically a Western history offering, with a big emphasis on the United States. Now, the baby, the school grew prodigiously in the ’60s because of this baby boom [which] was the great wave of population and when Dean describes the various movements that seized the students’ imagination and about which they were very passionate, these are movements of a generation that take place on many, many campuses. Queens is not some isolated place at all. And events in one place could trigger demonstrations in one place that will trigger events in another place. And one of the catastrophic events of the war period was the demonstration in Kent State, Ohio, where students were actually shot by the National Guard. Very controversial and it led to immediate responses on campus and that semester, I think that would've been a semester in ’69, maybe ’70, 1970. By the end of that semester, classes here were barely functioning, this is not the period when the police were brought in at the school, but the school almost ground to a halt. People just didn't show up for classes, there was so much disturbance. I do want to add a point. This is about oral history, it just occurred to me, I'm saying these things, I'm not absolutely sure of the dates. One problem of oral history is the speaker really, after these years, are [imperfect] memories.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3444.0,3602.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: How do we correct.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3602.0,3602.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Frankly, I don't trust my own memories entirely. And I'll give an example, through Dean, who said the peak year was 1976. I have compiled the history from the Registrar's Office, the peak year is 1973.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3602.0,3615.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: In terms of enrollments?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3615.0,3616.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: In terms of enrollment. That's when we hit 30,000. And I did, I made all these statistics myself from [Registrar] Alan Margolis' numbers,\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3616.0,3627.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Could I have a copy to stop, I'm going to scan it, post it on my Web page. [many voices, garbled]\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3627.0,3634.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: That's a risk in this oral history.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3634.0,3636.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: The question I have is how to respond to that, how do we correct that?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3636.0,3640.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: You either ask the question in a different way, you might say, differently or you just do your research yourself and form other questions about, you know\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3640.0,3648.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Frankly, I think what you have to do is, you get hold of lists like I have, or others [unclear] where we get them that are pretty reliable, [unclear]. And, you know, we have to make a decision who’s accurate and I think in your office you won’t get a sense of what happened. Maybe it’s my location and times.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3648.0,3672.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Remember, we're doing research before the interview, in which we're sending out surveys that are being completed. You're reviewing those. That's why we're having these guests come in, so you have a flavor of what kind of questions to look for, how to prepare for it. There's going to be documents online and in the archives you consult, the yearbooks, the student papers, the New York Times database or the New York Daily News database, maybe. And then after the interview,\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3672.0,3700.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Is the student newspaper recorded, The Phoenix?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3700.0,3702.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Our papers go back to The Phoenix and go back to The Knight. And they are mostly on microfilm.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3702.0,3712.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: OK. So you have access to them.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3712.0,3715.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Right. The problem with the microfilm, of course, is probably, entirely with microfilm is getting access, using the readers, but our technicians I am told are proficient and can help you with that. And of course, after the interview,\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3715.0,3729.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: I hate microfilm.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3729.0,3730.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Oh, we all do. After the interview, you go back and double-check it again. Now, the question you ask is not a bad technique either, to rephrase the question in your second interview.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3730.0,3742.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: And that's very important.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3742.0,3745.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: But again, bear in mind your tone. You’re not going to be accusatory. You're not going to be confrontational. You just gotta use your guile, use your, your manners or your, your savoir faire and just walk through, we're we're starting again. I want us to step back a little bit, let's review some of what we've talked  about already, raise the question again.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3745.0,3767.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: In terms of something which you can't pretend knowing, his personal life history, they are, from their experience. But how do you know for sure? He may not know for sure. You don't know.for sure. There's no way for you to check up because something which is sitting in his head is not checkable with very [unclear].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3767.0,3789.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: You’re right. There are going to be personal anecdotes you can't hope to contradict. But --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3789.0,3795.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Does it make a difference?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3795.0,3796.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: No. People don't exist, their memories don't exist in a vacuum. They don't think just about that event. You can pin it to certain markers that they may bring up or that you can bring up with a question, for example, with reference to the occupation of the campus, what else was happening at that time? What other occupations were there? What other events were happening in New York at the time? Maybe they can, you know, you could even ask them about other people who were with them. Remember that technique I've introduced, where I ask them to remember something or think about an event through the perspective of interaction with their colleagues or their friends. And that may shed more light onto the narrative than they might have otherwise brought to it.  No, there's no, with oral history, there's no set rule of this is how you do the interview, one step two step, three. But you bring your own skills and your own ability to think on the fly, to respond to their impulses and also the advantages of your own prior research.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3796.0,3870.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: There’s actual fact that does not have an impact on the overarching information you're gathering actually make a difference? Or does their perception, is that more important?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3870.0,3884.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Well, that's the interesting dilemma of the historian, which is real and which isn't, which is more factual, the fact or the account of the fact, you're dealing with memory.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3884.0,3895.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Memory is very malleable.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3895.0,3896.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: You're dealing with memories, very malleable. Memory is, is subject to change. But at the same time, let's not be completely distrustful of memory. Some some events are locked in memory, you know, to the point where people can remember the smells, the sounds, they remember the environment.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3896.0,3915.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: A standard question that survey researchers would use, they'd say where were you and what occupation were you in on the day that JFK was assassinated? And everybody who was of age at that time remembers where they were and what was happening.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3915.0,3931.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Or for your generation, where were you on 9/11, what were you doing? So I would venture to say that every generation of faculty members, you know...\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3931.0,3944.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Has something like that\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3944.0,3945.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: They have that, that bookmark. There's several of them.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3945.0,3949.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: Can I just say for a sec. OK. You will never be able to verify everything that said. But each oral, an oral history is only part, you know, oral histories don't sort of stand alone. They become groups and you see what other people have said about the same line, about the same thing. And you kind of can form the picture from that of how true is this or not true?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3949.0,3976.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: You do what you can to make sure the interview is as accurate and as as relevant as possible. But ultimately, you're not the person who makes the final judgment. It's gonna be the researcher who uses those interviews.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3976.0,3990.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Yeah, we're getting the interview, we are [unclear] we're creating a transcript. And then this is going to be primary source information on which.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=3990.0,4003.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Other people can use.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4003.0,4006.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: And it's up to them just to discern whether or not they want to use it or not. So it's not up to us to really find true facts.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4006.0,4013.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Well, for you to find, your goal.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4013.0,4014.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: We're trying to get true facts, not the truest facts.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4014.0,4017.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Your goal in many areas is to block the most obvious and blatant inaccuracies.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4017.0,4025.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: The true fact, not the truest fact?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4025.0,4027.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: What is the truest fact?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4027.0,4027.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: That's exactly it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4027.0,4031.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: OK, can I give you an example? Like my recollection of the occupation of Queens College and the police is that it was on a Friday afternoon. And I don't know if it really was, but in my mind, it was a Friday afternoon. Theoretically, someone else may talk about it and say it was a Tuesday and 16 people say it was a Tuesday then, and you have this base of interviews and information. Then my recollection of Friday is wrong.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4031.0,4057.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/184","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Probably wrong. But the rest of it may not be wrong. It could just be one minor component.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4057.0,4064.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/185","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Yeah. And that kind of event. you have other official sources that probably recorded what happened. So you, on a fairly public event like that you can then, you can find what the fact is, that a certain thing happened on a certain day. That’s easy [unclear].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4064.0,4097.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/186","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: The article points out the paper for... [long unclear faint student comment].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4097.0,4129.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/187","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Exactly. Exactly. You're not creating the final narrative, the final word. You're recording the recollections of others so that other researchers and writers can then turn to your source that you've created and consult that. Back to you, Jon.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4129.0,4152.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/188","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: OK, still sort of arriving at the college. Hired to teach immigration history more than anything else, Well I told them I also wanted to do urban history. Eventually I got the course I wanted. Here's a little fact I discovered, this is just something that isn’t documented.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4152.0,4174.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/189","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: I was hired as a lecturer because I didn't yet have my doctorate, which came in 1967.  I’ll show you a difference, as for pay, the pay I got was $8,000. I thought that was a lot.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4174.0,4190.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/190","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: It was a lot at that time.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4190.0,4192.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: I was a little bit embarrassed because my father who had such an eminent career only made money like that toward the very end of his career in [at] Ohio State. So here I was, starting out with a salary better than much of what he had earned. Crazy, but, you know, inflation is a reality. And I saw another list of the books I was putting together, five of them, for students to read on immigration history and I had jotted down the prices. I totaled them up, five books, all paperbacks, cost 14 dollars and 95 cents total.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4192.0,4227.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: How much you pay for this class? Don't answer that, I know what you paid for this class.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4227.0,4229.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: That's the kind of thing that really does change. So whenever you hear prices from another era, you have to be very aware of that inflation [unclear], especially in the 20th century.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4229.0,4243.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: But there's no substitute for free.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4243.0,4246.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Yes, that's true. Now, another, my wife and I came down here from Cambridge and moved into Flushing, right on KIssena Boulevard near Sanford Avenue in a small apartment. And at that time, there were hardly any Asians in Flushing. You could find, in some of the recesses, a few Japanese who had some connection with the World's Fair of 1964. The great wave of Asian migration, typically Koreans and Taiwanese Chinese, came later and that now completely changes the land, the social landscape of central Flushing, But the Flushing I saw at the time wasn't like that. As  indicated [earlier] the Klapper era ended, these elaborate requirements no longer present, but the Western Civilization [course sequence] was still very much in place. The baby boom generation put tremendous pressures on the institution, both in terms of physical space, there had already been previous pressures after World War II, although the numbers seem modest in retrospect. At the time they were, all you had at the beginning were these remnants of the reform school, so they added a lot of temporary housing after World War II, all of it gone now which --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4246.0,4330.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Two are still there, [Actually three, T-1, T-2, and T-3, now called Honors Hall.]\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4330.0,4331.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: which came off old Army bases and there are buildings right here under the footprint of what's now Powdermaker Hall. In any case, the campus, at the point I came [in 1966, included] Remsen [Hall, which] had been put up in the 1950s, the Social Science, I mean Kiely, was under construction, only a fence around it. Colden had been built. So had the cafeteria that's down here, off the terrace when you walk down, that, where you now have the information center [unclear] modern window, where you get your student card and all that stuff. Those were the new buildings. All of those were sort of plain gray vitreous brick. And this is a new campus growing up around these old Spanish colonial buildings [that] were very gray, sort of somber. They weren't dreary, but they weren't very lively either. This building [the Social Science building, now called Powdermaker] had been, not what you see now, but it had been put up in 1962, it won some kind of architectural prize from the Chamber of Commerce. That was funny, there’s a plaque on the front lawn.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4331.0,4412.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: So I was coming into a situation where we had a growing student body. I had to teach this Western civilization course. I taught immigration, I taught the Gilded Age in the late 19th century US. I loved this program, but it was extremely demanding, never had lectured in my life before I came here. I had run all kinds of seminars, but never had lectured. So I’d run home and do my prep for the next day, but I got the hang of it. And then came the student rebellions and I could talk about more of the late ’60s, [which were] very disruptive and divided the history department because there were those who were sympathetic and those who thought they were out of place on the campus and you could actually be sympathetic to the anti-war protest, but not toward taking over the tower. One of the big fears on the tower, by the way, of those who were apprehensive, was that the students would get into the records of the college and destroy them. I mean that was a real fear, I don’t know if it was a real possibility, but it was a real fear. Then things settle down in the early ’70s, but the numbers kept increasing. That's still the Baby Boom effect, but it's also many students were trying to occupy themselves in school, keeping themselves insulated from the draft. When Nixon took the draft away. I think it's ’73, he will relieve the pressure both from the demonstrations and the pressure on the students.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4412.0,4511.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: But the result was [by] 1973, maximum student enrollment. You could literally, and I remember this vividly, class would end, you'd go out in the hall, you could barely move. It was so crowded, the school was not built to house 30,000 students, period. But there we were, and it's at this time, by the way, the Student Union was put up, the present day Student Union. At that point we were the tenth, among the 10 largest campuses in the United States, according to, [what I have been told. However,] I've never verified that, but I actually have it in a history of college at that time. I think that's true. But it’s scaled for for that size institution. And now we've come back.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4511.0,4557.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: I had a question over here.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4557.0,4558.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/201","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: During the time of when the Baby Boomers were students here, what was, what was like a typical class size?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4558.0,4569.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/202","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: No, just an interesting fact about this building in its original form and, with a few exceptions, all the rooms were built at a legal maximum of 55 students and a practical maximum was 45. We just had trouble fitting people in.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4569.0,4594.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/203","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Now, in sociology, the intros were 75 and all of the electives were 45. And if you wanted a course smaller than that, you needed to teach a graduate course. But I would have 25 people in my graduate class when I came, you know, but typically 45, 45 and 45, that was my student load.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4594.0,4613.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/204","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: I don't think history, history nationally had [its] peak popularity in the 1950s. And was still pretty strong in the ’60s, began to decline [as a] major, not just here, but in many places. I think a lot of my courses were running around 30, 35 back then.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4613.0,4643.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/205","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: During the student upheavals and civil rights and the Vietnam war, students weren’t showing up to classes?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4643.0,4645.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/206","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: During some of the most extreme of the anti-war protests, when the tower was being occupied, or the reaction to Kent State, because of demonstrations, sometimes here on campus, but also in other parts of the city, large parts of the student body would be drawn off to those. [As a result] In this, you’d have a class and a couple of students would show up, and you'd have to conduct the course. So there were a few weeks where things almost ground to a complete halt and we had, I think, one semester, to change the exam schedule.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4645.0,4674.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/207","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Spring of 1970. You know, that's when you have Cambodia and invaded Cambodia in the middle of April. Every campus in America went out on strike.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4674.0,4686.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/208","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: And that's where you have Kent State.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4686.0,4688.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/209","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: There was no, there was no end of the semester. And so that's how you get a GPA distribution like this. You know, we have a peak right in the middle.  Just pass that around. So the mean GPA goes up in the spring of 1970 because all the faculty gave, what are you going to do? Classes end on April 15th. You going to flunk the students? No. You're going to, you're going, gonna give them the benefit of the doubt. So the mean GPA was 3.3 in the spring of 1970.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4688.0,4715.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/210","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: I'd never seen that. That's beautiful.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4715.0,4716.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/211","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Pretty liberal, we were prepared the [unclear]\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4716.0,4719.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/212","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Not to end the whole semester. Some people were, but most of us were.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4719.0,4726.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/213","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: I'll pass around the loyalty oath.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4726.0,4727.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/214","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: I could digitize it and post them online.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4727.0,4730.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/215","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: You got a copy for everybody.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4730.0,4731.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/216","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: OK. I also could have my [unclear]\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4731.0,4736.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/217","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Now getting back to the fiscal crisis, I don’t want to, yeah, these are really not my subjects, the fiscal crisis was really severe. Before the fiscal crisis the History department had 41 full-time faculty and about 22 adjuncts. Afterwards, we got it down to around 30 and about three or four adjuncts. We fired all adjuncts during the fiscal crisis. We fired, I say fired, it's not [quite that], we released, had to [for budget reasons], all non-tenured faculty, including all faculty who had been hired as line faculty. That is, they were meant to have full careers at Queens College, if things worked out that way for them. This was really tragic. For example, we hired three women with superb credentials.  Some of them were such good teachers, [they] got written up in the local papers. Every one of those was released. Everyone, as far as I know, their history careers were destroyed by this. And when we were subject to a self-study in the 1990s, because there’d been so little hiring, we were faulted for not having women, but we had made this effort to go in that direction in the ’70s. And this had been the outcome. There are a lot of ironies that happened in the history of institutions, this, to me, was one of the more unfortunate, or almost bitter ones, because a lot of us, felt those teachers were such fine teachers.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4736.0,4835.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/218","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: I missed the year for the fiscal crisis.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4835.0,4837.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/219","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: The fiscal crisis spread over, [was] especially acute in this spring of ’75. I was assistant chairman. I remember it vividly and I was on leave in Fall ’76, but [the crisis] continued on then, and all during that period, a lot of us who were lower rank, like associate or assistant professors, really wondered whether our jobs would also go. I remember registering at an employment bureau, just in case.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4837.0,4871.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/220","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: We all stood in the unemployment lines. We got laid off for, for six weeks. So the faculty reunion was down there at the unemployment lines, we all were having a little moment there. It was pretty [unclear], pretty unusual.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4871.0,4885.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/221","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Things got really worrisome. That was when the famous headline 'Ford to City - Drop Dead' [appeared]. Well, the city didn't, but it was under huge pressures, financially. And a big change that came out of this, structurally affecting the institution, is that the funding of the college, which had been based on city budgets, shifted over to the state. Now you have to get some administrators to talk about the ramifications of this, but it’s a really a major structural change in the way institutions operate. And that change, combined with the earlier creation of CUNY [in 1961] as an administrative unit [that] over time that has evolved into a much more centralized force in the structuring of the campus. OK, so the history department was really devastated [by the fiscal crisis] as much as any department on this campus. And I think it left a scar on us all through the late ’70s and early ’80s for sure. We had a few appointments in the early ’80s. We began to get some retirements of people who lingered from the earlier period in the ’80s. But the regrowth [overall size] of the institution after the fiscal crisis means this 30,000 population [in 1973] shrank abruptly down into the 20s and that it kept shrinking. At one point, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4885.0,1985.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/222","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":", we got down to about half that size [compared to 1973], just a little over half that size, and then began to build up. But these were very dramatic changes in the texture of the school.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1985.0,4993.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/223","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Now, carrying, now I want to start looking at what I was supposed to talk about, the ’80s and ’90s, which in many respects are kind of nondescript, and you'd say, there's no great shaking event, as I said before. So first of all I'll start with the department. You have a department, which is, still has its 1960s faculty basically, and offering its nicely diversified Western history program, staffed by people who've been at top graduate schools who, like myself, most of us want to teach some area of specialty we knew. So, for example, I introduced [my course on American] urban history, I consider myself an urban historian, and I had a course on the history of city planning in the United States. I also developed [with Prof. Stephen Steinberg of Urban Studies] a course on [the history of] the Borough of Queens, which was a research course. And this was, from the point of view of a faculty member, a terrific period because there was leeway to do this [sort of] thing. And one reason there was leeway to do this is because the requirement system had been knocked out. The student upheavals, among other things, had ended even Western Civilization, the year of that was maybe ’71. The very composition of governance on the campus had been changed; the campus had been run, to some extent by [the] Faculty Senate, but the students were brought into the student, the governance of the campus. So the institution in the ’70s really functioned almost with no requirements whatsoever. Then we began to reinstitute a system of LASAR requirements [Liberal Arts and Sciences Area Requirements]. But these were much looser, you had a lot more choice within that [LASAR] than in the old Klapper system. But it did mean that young faculty could probably, if they were serious about some subject [they wanted to] introduce. So this gave a new dynamism to the school. There's a positive side and negative side to everything but that dynamism at the department was drawing on the strongest interest of its faculty, letting them find expression. We did expand in history into Asian Studies. One of the big, and we also began to develop some response [to community interests]. We had a very good Jewish studies program.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=4993.0,5145.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/224","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: We, trying to think along those lines, oh, yeah, here's an example of some kinds of things that can happen. The Greek community was getting very numerous in Queens, especially based in Astoria, but they actually spread throughout the borough, and many who were active in the Greek community put pressures on the college to do something about this and have courses. We actually got a, hired someone in 1985, Elena Frangakis-Syrett, to teach Greek history. She is very versatile, highly trained historian, coming out of the University of London, but she was hired because of that pressure from outside, [or at least] partly because of that pressure from outside. At the same time, we hired a woman named Marion Kaplan, who's long since moved on to NYU. She was outstanding in Jewish history. So we were servicing both those areas, and we were beginning to diversify and we were hiring a couple of women.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5145.0,5201.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/225","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: And Marion was retrenched in 1976. She was teaching at Queensborough, and she was a faculty member at Queensborough when she first started.  She got retrenched, she got fired because of the fiscal crisis. And then, when she was a senior professor at the Grad Center, she was teaching a course in German history, and the retired president of Queensborough Community College, Kurt Schmeller, came to the class and he, he said he wanted to take the class because he wanted to brush up a little bit. And she said, 'I know you.'\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5201.0,5234.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/226","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Did he fail?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5234.0,5235.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/227","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: And she told him to his face, she was very outspoken.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5235.0,5238.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/228","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Oh, she did. She told him right there and they had a laugh about it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5238.0,5239.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/229","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: A terrific person. In the late ’80s, we hired a woman named Elisheva Carlebach, who was an absolutely brilliant Jewish historian, I mean, superb. When I was chair from ’90 to ’94, it was very clear to me that Harvard wanted her, but she wasn't going to Harvard because she was committed to living in New York, but I knew the real danger was Columbia, where she is now. But we had the benefit of her career for quite a while and you could not have gotten a finer teacher or a better mind, just extraordinary.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5239.0,5279.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/230","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: OK, so here we are [in the 1990s] in this now aging and increasingly beat-up building, Powdermaker Hall, it’s not this building, but its predecessor.  The early ’80s were, I think, OK [for the building]. I developed somewhere in the middle of these financial pressures what I called a lagging economic indicator. This literally happened. In certain years there was hardly any chalk in the chalkboard [trays]. In other years, it would be abundantly supplied. I began to realize it wasn't an accident, [it was] related to the financing of the school and ultimately the economy. Symptoms always have a lag to the economy [unclear]. But when the chalk trays are empty you [knew the school was in financial trouble] [unclear], not just because you couldn't write on the blackboard.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5279.0,5331.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/231","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: We had such a period in the late ’80s, which was another period of stringency, nothing like the fiscal crisis. There were points in the late ’80s and early ’90s where the library stopped hiring and buying as many books [and] cut back severely on journals. A couple of years when I was chair, where hardly any books whatsoever were purchased. The history department actually put up some of its own funds in order to keep purchases going. This [next memory] is internal to the department, but it's probably worth recounting. The shabby condition of the history department was such that Dean Nick Jordan said [the entry and reception area] looks like the Albany bus station, and it really did. There was some space, it doesn’t exist anymore, but it was a large rectangular space, a so-called entry room, through which had been put a metal partition, sort of opaque glass, so that as you entered the room, you faced this barrier which didn’t rise to the ceiling, beyond which there were desks. This [desk area, behind the partition] had been set up to handle tremendous pressures of the late ’60s and early ’70s, consistently added more space but there wasn’t any space to be found so we created space by dividing up our lounge. Well as the population of the school declined, there weren't so many majors, it freed things up and I took it upon myself to redecorate with help from the Dean and also from the chairman, Stuart Prall, we knocked down that petition and in a major effort in 1987, we redecorated the whole lounge. So this building was shabby, but we had a wonderful lounge in the History department and it really helped lift the spirits in the department to some extent. But that was the paradox. Things were falling apart [for a long time]. Back to falling apart, meaning, I do remember this, I can't give you a year on it, but it's probably, it’s definitely associated with the fiscal crisis. There were points, it was so bad in terms of repair that, if a window got broken, a plate glass window like this, Buildings and Grounds would put a piece of plywood over it and it would stay there for the rest of the semester. You felt like you're walking through this sort of derelict structure, things were gloomy, it was really depressing, the response to the physical plant. That was getting better in the early ’80s, as President Saul Cohen began to pay attention to the quality of the campus and then Shirley Strum Kenny, who was president in the mid-80s, really did pay attention to the attractiveness of the campus.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5331.0,5501.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/232","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Now when I came in 1966, the campus [quadrangle] was open-ended. The last buildings as you come west were this building in its earlier form and then Remsen, across [from it]. Everything else was open and there were playing fields. And then you got to Bowne High School [on Main Street], later made into a law school [note: the CUNY Law School was located in the former site of Campbell Junior High School, next door to Bowne]. But [in 1966] there was definitely to the quadrangle a very unfinished quality, but by Kenny's period with the completion of Rosenthal and then the New Science Building, the quadrangle took the form you are familiar with and then the fountains [were] put at the end. So there was a finish and completeness finally to the space which had been envisioned really even back in the reform [school] era, believe it or not, when this plan, open plan, had been put in place during the reform school era. I've seen the original plan for school, [it projected buildings that, if built, would have resembled,] they actually had it as a Christian cross, but they were nowhere near fulfilling it. [They constructed only the Jefferson Hall stem of the cross, leaving it forever unfinished and thus open.]\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5501.0,5563.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/233","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: That wasn't going to fly.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5563.0,5566.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/234","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: But the campus assumed this open horizon in 1937, when [unclear] Fiorello La Guardia came out here to dedicate the college, he was famous for saying 'keep your buildings low and your ideals high.' And he was standing behind Jefferson, looking [west] toward the skyline, as he said this. And that’s been that for a long time was remembered, and then it’s been a design criterion, so it has kept that view to the skyline, which is one of the great landscape amenities of the college. A lot of people who pass by the school have no idea what's up here [that] we built. OK, so in the ’80s and this is I think one of those general themes that are quietly unfolding, the campus really begins to look like a real campus, attractive, a place you can take at least some pride in and feel good about as a physical entity. Now I attribute this to Cohen and especially to Kenny, that impulse has been institutionalized and kept going to the present. So that's a big development.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5566.0,5637.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/235","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Ethnic diversity, we've talked about. In a sense, the school's always been diverse. The point I came, 1966, the students who really made an impression on me were mostly Jewish in background, not exclusively, and many of them, some of the very best ones, were women, because there is a practice, pretty widespread, I’m not of Jewish background, but Jewish families put a lot of emphasis on the bright boy in the family, so if they can get the bright boy into Cornell then Queens College was good enough for the girl. The girl might be smarter, didn't matter. So we had extraordinarily good women students. I mean, very impressive to me how good some of these were. And we also had some very good men, too but there was a sort of partiality. Another Jewish strain at the school at the point I arrived and it lingered for quite a while was very impressive. It wasn't entirely this way, but many of the secretaries, were wives who'd already raised children and they were [from] Jewish backgrounds and they had a real sense of professionalism. I think we had extraordinarily good secretarial force.  And as we go into the ’80s and ’90s, we had to recruit in a sense outside that group, and I remember as chair [unclear] I had spent more time training secretaries and that became a problem.  And they never were paid well enough. If you were, if you thought of yourself as a Jewish mother who was earning the money on the side, OK, it was your job, but the pay here was not very good for secretaries. But we made do. One consequence of this was the faculty, many faculty I'm certain, this is true of me and I know [of] many, many others, shoulder a lot of jobs which at other schools would be done by secretaries. I've always typed up my own syllabus, cranked out mimeographs in the early period and did xeroxing later. So you do a lot of work which we might turn over to a secretary elsewhere.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5637.0,5780.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/236","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Now, one last department event, a big one, especially for me, and the department, was the 1988 election. I want to comment briefly on this. I know this is pretty internal, but it does say something about the history of the campus. We've noted that the student protest movements of the late ’60s to which some faculty gave ardent support, others were very alarmed by what was happening. That had the effect of splitting the history department because the history department was this sort of frozen entity, all of them hired in the ’60s, memories of this were lingering beneath the surface all through the ’70s and into the ’80s. And every time we had a department election, which was by bylaws required every three years, these divisions loomed again. For 18 years we had a chair, and a very good chair, Keith Eubank, a European historian, who more conservative to moderate elements of the department supported. But the longer he served, the more he became an anathema to the more liberal leftist scholars. But every time, Keith Eubank prevailed, until 1985, when he retired from being chair. And we had another chair whose name was Stuart Prall, who was more in the moderate through conservative camp, and he served 1985 to 1988, his three-year term, but then was drawn off to graduate school. We'd always had close connection with the graduate school, where he was head of the history program. Who was gonna replace him? Prall asked me if I would put my name forward. I'm not a political type. I'd not been very involved in these divisions. I'm more centrist. I actually [was] a pretty good friend of Frank Warren and some people on the other side of things, but I said yes. [However,] Frank Warren still wanted this, he'd been running for years. So we come to this election in 1988, [with] all these lingering animosities. Well, suddenly I find myself at the head of the conservative faction.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5780.0,5920.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/237","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: It's true.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5920.0,5921.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/238","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: It is really ironic but considering myself sort of a friend of Frank Warren the same time. It meant that I understood him. I didn't always agree with his policies, I had not voted for him, because I liked Keith Eubank, who I thought was fair-minded. You had to make a choice. But the department, coming up this election, could not make up its mind. We went through 22 ballots, not a single change in vote, 13 to 13 and 12 to 13 because someone after the fifteenth vote had to leave the room to go home. That was like on a Friday. We assembled early next week, had two more votes, the same thing happened, except in the meantime, I had decided the only way to get out of this was to split the chairmanship. And no one was interested in this idea on my side or the other side. But I said that, those are the terms we're going to do this on. I don't normally act this way. And I got enough on my side to agree, and the other side would go along with it. After two ballots, when we reassembled, which showed a same split, 13 to 13, on my motion we adjourned the meeting, the two sides talked, but this had already been talked through, we came back and reached the agreement that Frank Warren would serve for a year and a half, half the chairmanship, and then I would come in [for the other half,] and we had all kinds of sub-pacts to make sure this happened. It was called the Israeli Solution because, although that wasn't how I conceived of it, because at that time there was a split parliamentary leadership [unclear] in Israel. I thought [this comparison] was pretty funny. But it worked, because it meant that one half the department who really much distrusted Frank Warren saw that he really wasn't the ogre they had imagined. And then I did it for a year and a half and I wasn't seen as an ogre, although they wondered whether I was competent. The argument was I wouldn’t, and this was sort of a true observation, [that] I didn't have a presence on the wider campus, but I showed that I could do that. So then I served a second term because I thought, well, I've gotten pretty good at this, then I served a second term so I’ll do it another three years, now I want to stop. I stopped in 1994. Frank came in the office, and said, he said, are you really stopping? Or are you going to run again? I said, no, I'm done, I want to finish my book, which is really what I'd been wanting to do all along. And I did finish my book, and he went on to be chair for 18 years. And this incredible event brought, finally brought peace to the department.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=5921.0,6100.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/239","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: It's true.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6100.0,6101.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/240","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: And the department has been pretty harmonious ever since. And when I first became chair, I was startled, literally, because I was very much caught up in this and what had happened, I sat down with an older member of the Music department and I said to him, look, we had this election, this is happening, and he said, oh no, our department has always been divided. Now, I don't know what the earlier divisions were, but apparently this [election] event actually brought a really important turn in the History department. Why is that important to students? It's important to students because by the point I stepped out [as chair], the school was finally getting to a point with our generation, the 1960s generation, really was beginning to retire in a serious fashion. It was good that we were working in harmony and Frank was able in his first term as chairman, to hire the present generation, aided by search committees, that you experience as faculty, so achieving this degree of peacefulness really made a big difference. Or at least contributed to it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6101.0,6172.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/241","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: It was, in a sense, everybody’s job, but it’s one big thing I credit myself for in the history department. Another small thing but it added to the generally better feeling in the department, there was a self-study we had to do. These are horrific exercises imposed by the administration on a department where you self-examine yourself and then they bring in outsiders to make recommendations. One of these was done in 1992 while I was chair. These are big undertakings, in fact, I have the 1992 document right here, how many pages does it run, I don't know. One hundred and ten. By the way, I recommend [it], this is an excellent document.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6172.0,6221.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/242","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6221.0,6223.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/243","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: And it for a long time, it was regarded as [one of] the best self-studies on campus. I modeled it on Economics. The idea was, OK, they told me in Economics, we got everybody to participate and I thought, nobody likes to do work. So I said, OK, the solution is everybody, following the Economics model, must contribute to this report, I don’t care, unless you're on leave, you had to write a section. And since everybody was forced to be part of it, everybody agreed. And we've got this excellent retrospective report. But it did set the agenda for the next hiring that was done under Warren and I think he's more than fulfilled that, so that is kind of some of the pattern in the department. One other thing I just want to mention, one thing that is clear, is how intensely academic this department was. We counted, in 1982 ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6223.0,1992.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/244","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":" the existing faculty had produced 73 books and hundreds of articles; we're a very productive faculty.  The, in the late ’80s, there is instituted a Presidential Teaching Award; the department took great pride in its teaching. Of the six first awards, three went to members of the History department. That is really remarkable. Professor[s] [John] O'Brien, Elisheva Carlebach, and Martin Pine, I think were the ones who were awarded. So there was a lot to be proud of. Their report also exposed plenty of our limitations, but it's a very realistic report and I think it helped set the basis for where we were going in the future.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=1992.0,6331.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/245","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: OK, so now what else to say? While the campus is becoming more beautiful, I'll finish, I've got two more stories. Another thing that happened, this very much affects students and I don't have precise dates on this, but if you came into the school, well, when I came into school in the 1960s, and this would have gone way back into the, continuing in the ’70s, into the ’80s, at the point you had to register as a student for your courses, no computers, you went to Fitzgerald gymnasium, and you waited in long lines and you got to the table and said, you would say, 'I want this course in history,' and you would be told, 'sorry, it's closed.' And students hated this. I mean, it was an ordeal. But everybody went through it, and it wasn't much fun for faculty either, but it was a fundamental shared experience, the shared ordeal that all students went through. By the time I was chair, there was beginnings of telephone registration. And that whole process had become more and more computerized. I was responsible for drawing up many department schedules, that is you figure out  when faculty teach things [and in what specific rooms]. I did this as an assistant chair in the ’70s and also as chair. All of this is done by hand, pre-computer, I had worked out elaborate charts and so on. The computerization that began to come in in the ’90s and extends down to the present, while sometimes clumsy, and has created some headaches, has been an enormous boon to the school, I think, overall. I mean, you can post things on websites, stuff like that. There's a whole different kind of communications pattern that prevailed in the earlier years for lack of computers or Internet connections.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6331.0,6444.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/246","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: And the other thing it gave us back, it gave us back our library. What happened is we have online full-text now and all of a sudden the fact that the library can't afford to buy books is no longer as important because, you know, they did those national [Academic Senate] CUNY Surveys from 2005 to 2009, all the faculty were asked, and the thing, one of the things that everybody on every CUNY campus said they were happy with the improvements in, was the quality and volume of the stuff that the library provided. And that is all because of electronic, it's certainly not because they buy monographs.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6444.0,6478.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/247","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: I know. The collection itself still remains, let's say, spotty. And it was fairly decent when I got here for an undergraduate school, I will say. But that was before this.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6478.0,6492.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/248","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6492.0,6493.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/249","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Do you think the addition of technology into education, the actual education itself, is a positive or a negative?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6493.0,6504.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/250","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: You mean the educational experience of the student? I have no idea exactly what it was like for students in the Klapper era, but I think students [that] came out in that era got a really rigorous, very fine education. Its knowledge may be considered obsolete now because of the way all that’s structured, and the canon in Western civilization gets criticized. But for its era it was excellent. I think the Baby Boom generation, just by weight of its numbers, began to break that [Klapper-era system] down. I mean, the [post-Boomer] generation and the faculty I was part of had a lot of the quality in the school, but it meant that if you were a student, you had to be more canny than the earlier students, it was not a fixed set of courses that you had to take. Rather, you had to look around and figure out what you wanted. And, and if you were alert and asked enough questions, you could get a fabulous education here and I think that's still true. But it takes an initiative on the part of the student to do it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6504.0,6575.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/251","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: What I was saying, was it in the classroom itself, the technology? Because, like, you need multimedia presentations?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6575.0,6580.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/252","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Yeah. Well, that gets to this building, by the way, and maybe that's a good way to close. I'll begin with a story. When I was a chair, you know, it's interesting to be a chair in a department. You come in at the beginning of the day with a list of things that need to be done, and then the day ends and you realize you haven't done a one of them, because in the meantime, your phone rings and there are a half dozen other things that present themselves, sometimes urgent, and you just have to attend to them first. So you, you really are under constant, unpredictable set of demands. So one day I walk into my office, this is in the old Powdermaker, the separate chair's office, and we had these Steelmaster desks, which were the same desks that all the faculty had. And there, sitting on my fake leather, red leather chair with its arms, same kind of chair that any faculty member would have in his office or her office, looking at the desk as though it were studying the papers, was a squirrel, a gray squirrel, standing on his haunches. And I stopped. I said, 'it's all yours, buddy.' But why was the squirrel there? Because this old building had disintegrated to such a point they had found a way into the building. They would occasionally invade classrooms, whole classrooms would sometimes get the [unclear] squirrels. This place was falling apart and the, you could barely work the blinds. The media question, then, none of these rooms were engineered for media. When the school was built in 1962, there were plugs in the wall, so you could plug in a carousel projector, which I used all the time. That kind of or you could bring in a rolling device, a TV monitor. But any kind of visual aid had to be brought into the room and set up and the technicians would arrive and do this for you. So when this building, from all the growth pressures and poor maintenance, or erratic maintenance might be a better term, the breakdown of the Venetian blinds wouldn't work, the chairs were falling apart, the tables behind which you stood when you were making the lecture were wobbly because they had been beat up so much. Finally, a decision was made to rehabilitate this building, so this building is the product, fortunately, of an era when these new technologies were available, and it has much more state of the art pieces of equipment than anything I experienced.  The years we're talking about [1990s], these services [were] around, they have to be mostly, in most buildings, imported in a classroom, unless it’s a new building like the New Science Building, which comes pretty well equipped. But technical change is so rapid that, you know, every five to 10 years you're going to need new updating. So this [new building] is becoming obsolete.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6580.0,6777.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/253","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: I've had courses and professors, no laptops in the room, and they don't, they don't use any technology whatsoever except for the board. And those persons I feel like I get a lot higher quality education than, because…\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6777.0,6793.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/254","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: That's a very interesting question. I've often speculated, do these technological gains, which are real and produce a different way of presenting material, really do better than the older [methods]?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6793.0,6808.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/255","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: I think it hinders?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6808.0,6810.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/256","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: So were the good faculty the older or the younger?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6810.0,6811.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/257","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Older.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6811.0,6815.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/258","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: OK. So you had older faculty using chalk and nothing else. And it was the younger faculty. Was there a full-time/part-time difference?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6815.0,6823.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/259","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: No, on all levels.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6823.0,6824.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/260","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: OK. All right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6824.0,6827.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/261","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: You know, one of the great topics, this is a personal opinion, but I've heard other people express it. With some of these PowerPoint, and other things, there's a tendency to [present information and ideas as a] series of bullet points. I've always found that very off-putting, you lose some of the subtlety of observations, and it sometimes becomes a professorial crutch because the points are on the board so you can just talk around them rather than [making a] more fully embellished and nuanced presentation. That tendency is there. You probably do very brilliantly with the new technology, especially if you grow up with it. I grew up on the chalkboard, I use it extensively. It's nice to hear some people still thinks it's good. You'll probably get major divisions of opinion on that. But in a sense, we've always used visual aids, just the old ones were chalkboard-oriented.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6827.0,6888.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/262","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Wrap it up. Got a question here.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6888.0,6890.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/263","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Yes. I'm very curious to, I know you touched on it briefly, you're talking about the outside of the campus, the surrounding area, how it has changed, I wonder if you could talk more about that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6890.0,6897.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/264","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Yeah. OK. Well, Dean Savage made a very important point; in the ’40s and ’50s there was the Pomonok Golf Course [opposite the front entrance] and that also had another interesting [feature]; it had a clubhouse, which in effect became a faculty meeting place. And that [made it] a sort of a faculty club, as I understand it from talking and interviewing some really older [faculty] members, one was Howard Knag, who was the Registrar, and I interviewed him before his death and he talked a lot about that. To the south [of the campus] in this direction, beyond Melbourne Avenue, I think was quite open initially and also to the north, they didn't even have the Long Island Expressway initially, they had Horace Harding Boulevard. And it was quite open [looking west] towards Main Street. By the way, some faculty fought like crazy to keep that little sliver of woods [north of Reeves Avenue near its junction with Main Street, I think] because it [represented] wonderful [original woodland] habitat; they lost obviously. The Expressway put a traffic corridor right to our north, which is actually a little bit of a barrier. So it’s hard to bring in businesses that might cater to students, and given the zoning, the area around campus has always been underdeveloped from the point of student use where you have a few eateries, but not too many. The public housing that was put up, the Electchester housing, some of it [unclear] is fairly decent, solid construction, but nothing too special or stupid. But it doesn’t add much to the campus or complement it in any particular way. The [public] housing [and] the garden apartments [to the south] were put up here. They were here when I came, they used to be red brick. They got redone in the prosperity of the early ’80s, a different color pattern now. So they've gone through refurbishment on their own. That's a very stable complex of buildings.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=6897.0,7036.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/265","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: The demographic, is there a change early? Around what point was the Asian population?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7036.0,7043.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/266","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Well, the Asian population of course concentrates heavily in Flushing. But the influx of all kinds of groups -- for example, in this History of Queens course, in one year, it was like the early ’80s, '82, '83 would be my guess, I could look it up, I had suddenly this guy in the class, he had a turban. And he wants to do a history of Queens. Well, he was a Sikh and I got to know him pretty well, a very bright guy. And so I got him to do a history of gurdwaras, their religious centers. And there are some here in Flushing and a lot in Richmond Hill, a terrific paper. But, you know, suddenly I became aware of this group that I didn't know was in Flushing [let alone Richmond Hill]. And I remember once a similar experience with a student coming out of Astoria, I asked him where he was from -- from Malta. It turns out there's a Maltese population, it's not a big one, but it's there, 15,000 or something like that. So you get in addition to the major groups this incredible diversity of groups. I think the college became more and more aware of this in the ’80s and there were certain points where they count the number of foreign languages spoken on campus. In the borough, I've seen accounts that suggest there are more than 90 languages. [That includes] the Russian students and [they] have certain areas they tend to gravitate to, but they also spread out [within the borough].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7043.0,7126.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/267","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: The Queens College databook, which is available on the institutional research website, your CUNY, Queens College website and then front slash and then Institutional underscore Research with a capital I and a capital R. [https:///www.qc.cuny.edu/About/Research/Documents/Fact_Book_2013_2014_FINAL.pdf] If you go look at the databook, you'll have a table in which they talk about the country that students at Queens College identify with primarily. There's about 150 different countries and then they'll talk about the language spoken at home and you'll have 70 or 80 languages. It is a truly stunning document. About what's really stunning. If I get visitors from the Midwest, I'll just bring them around in the campus and they just look, and they look, because it is, you know, if you go to Vermont or if you go to Nebraska or Idaho and then you come back to New York City and you come to Queens College, there's a visible dislocation.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7126.0,7176.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/268","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: West Virginia. There are very few colleges in the country this diverse.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7176.0,7184.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/269","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Yeah. So the diversity comes to us. We don't go out and recruit, but it is this amazing baseline fact about this college.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7184.0,7194.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/270","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: In terms of recruitment, I remember hearing that when the dorms were put up, the hope was to recruit students from all over the place, [unclear] whatever, it seems to me from what I hear that basically the students who live in the dorm come from pretty much the surrounding areas who just want the dorm as well.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7194.0,7213.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/271","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: A lot of them were graduate students, I think of the sciences, though.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7213.0,7217.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/272","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: They had 125 athletes in the initial cohort. And then there were a bunch of people brought in from Korea, [Professor Pyong Gap] Min brokered that. But by and large, I think that the undergraduate population in The Summit really is exactly what you say, primarily students that want the dorm experience and can afford it. And then after a year, they tend to move out, they say, it's socially, just not as interesting as I had hoped, and so they move off campus, where it's a little cheaper. And they live near the school.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7217.0,7245.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/273","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Yeah, but they're talking about building a second dorm. It's considered to be a great success.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7245.0,7252.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/274","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: On top of the [unclear] building.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7252.0,7254.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/275","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: It would go over where the, you know, one of the talks, you know, where all these buildings directly to the north of Powdermaker that B\u0026G uses to store their backhoes and their Bobcats. And that's where it would go.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7254.0,7267.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/276","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: OK. Well, I think, but before we take a break, any other  questions for either Jon or for Dean? Thoughts, you might also think, leave this today, thinking about what we've covered, what we've talked about, how some of the points they raised can influence, affect your questionnaires as you begin to create them and hone them. Think about the key points about the demographics of the neighborhood and the college, with relevance to the protest years. Think about the years of fiscal strife and the recovery from that. Also, consider, it's kind of hard because we're missing the intermediary gaps, we're going to get those next week, but once we have the full picture together, think about how each of these different decades affects subsequent years, because you're going to be talking to people who are just not here in the ’50s and that's it. Or the ’60s and that's it. They may have begun in 1958 and been here through 1985, or in Jon's case, ’66 through 2005. So there's going to be a broad narrative potential drawn from the different decades we're gonna be covering.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7267.0,7356.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/277","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: I have a question. It seems like professors over the last few years have degrees from prestigious and Ivy League schools. Why do you think Queens College was able to attract?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7356.0,7364.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/278","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Well, I could, I could say, I went to Temple. That's, it's a prestigious school, it's not an Ivy League school.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7364.0,7372.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/279","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Two words answers it: New York City. That's three words. What can you say?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7372.0,7377.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/280","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: For me, I can speak of my case specifically, going to Temple for 10 years as a graduate student, really prepared me for work in a very socially diverse, ethnically diverse environment. Temple is in many ways the perfect regional match for what Queens College is. And I came out of Temple not only with appreciation, but also with a certain kind of social perspective as well, I think was a good match for Queens.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7377.0,7407.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/281","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: I do think Dean was right. I don't think today our faculty salaries are as attractive on a comparative basis as they were when I joined. So it's gotta be the city and people's desire to be here. To be in New York is a tremendous advantage for certain disciplines, for certain types of scholars. It's just an exciting city. That's the big, big attraction.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7407.0,7429.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/282","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: If you're an art historian, if you're a musician, if you’re in theater scholarship, I mean, yeah, you could be in Indiana, but you could also be in New York City. And so we get an enormous lift from that. But if you're in the sciences, maybe CUNY colleges aren't really the right choice for you to make because we don't have the resources, we don't have the lab space, we don't have the doctoral students. So you're gonna have a much tougher row to hoe if you're in the hard sciences and want to make a career.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7429.0,7465.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/283","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: I will say, because this reminds me of a point, when I got here and taught this civilization course which required students from every part of the school to come to your course, I would talk to some of the science students, you know, once that stopped being required, it didn’t happen, I remember it was clear to me that, at that time, resting on the reputation the school had built up in the ’50s, that [while] the science program may not have had depth, especially research depth that say a major state university would have, [but that it] was so good that Queens could place students in almost any medical school in the country. It had a fabulous reputation apparently in the sciences. I don't know if we’ve lost that or not.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7465.0,7517.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/284","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: That's something you could ask your subjects. Why did that change?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7517.0,7520.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/285","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Well, I don't know how much it has changed, but I suspect it has.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7520.0,7523.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/286","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: It has changed.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7523.0,7527.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/287","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: This is not too [unclear] personal. The World's Fair and having the UN in Queens. How did that impact the school here and the community as a whole?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7527.0,7540.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/288","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Which World's Fair – ’39, ‘64? Sixty-four [unclear]. Thirty-nine was at the very beginning and the UN as well.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7540.0,7554.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/289","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: I would, I'll give an opinion. From the point of the college's history, it's probably a sideshow.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7554.0,7561.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/290","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Nothing, really?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7561.0,7563.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/291","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: Well, probably if you could really, I've never asked that question or seen anyone talk about it. The '64 fair certainly drew a tremendous number of people from the city, but the school, you know was, there’s a tremendous influx, the school is well built up and well-defined, I doubt if that altered the curriculum. The '39 fair is so early, the very first classes of the school are being formed; it’s very much under the aegis of Klapper and those who were working with him so that was a phenomenon I suspect pretty much generated out of the impulse to create an institution. The fact that this event was happening in Flushing may have added excitement to the area, but I don't think it probably affected the campus. I may be wrong.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7563.0,7614.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/292","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: I think what the ’64 was for so I think for the students who were here, what you guys are doing is probably much more relevant. They had something that was in effect a traveling trade show, or you know, a permanent trade show.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7614.0,7632.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/293","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: OK. Those were very big events, though, in terms of the history of Queens, not only because they attracted people, but the way they were engineered with initially Robert Moses, you create this immense parking things in Flushing Meadows-Corona Park, it's one of the biggest parks in the city. It's not appreciated but it's a very central location. It's still plastic enough they could go in a lot of directions, but it's a tremendous resource.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7632.0,7661.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/294","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: And if you want to have a literary impression of what it was like before the '39 World's Fair, you've got it in Gatsby, because they drive through the Queens ash heaps because they used to, everybody used to heat with coal and that produced a lot of slag and then they would go dump it all over there in what now is Flushing Meadow Park. And so it was a not nice place. The World's Fair was designed to repair that damage and it did.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7661.0,7689.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/295","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Thank you both for joining us. You're right. I expect to see great things.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7689.0,7695.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/296","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nJon Peterson: And I’ll add, as questions occur to you, pass them on. I’d be willing to answer them.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7695.0,7701.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/297","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: And one of you may end up with Dr. Peterson as the subject.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7701.0,7706.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/298","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDean Savage: Now there's another guy right down at the end of the hall, Gerry Solomon, who runs the journalism program, was one of the early editors of the Phoenix, which was the student newspaper founded after the administration had closed down both of these student newspapers here. And he has some stories to tell. So I think he would be a very good subject.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7706.0,7724.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345/transcript/29317/annotation/299","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: He's on my list. Dean, thanks a lot. Everyone, let's take, let's give it about five minutes. We've been here for a while, it’s almost the end of the day, you guys need a break. I know you do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/44085/file/117345#t=7724.0,7954.07675"}]}]}]}