{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/th8bg2j09j/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Dr. Lawrence Kaplan, Dr. Frank Warren Roundtable"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 1: \u003c/strong\u003e Larry Kaplan describes how Queens College’s first president, Paul Klapper, created a high-quality liberal arts curriculum at the school, and recalls his own experiences with this curriculum as a student in the 1950s.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 2: \u003c/strong\u003e Larry Kaplan discusses the McCarthy hearings in the 1950s and how three tenured Queens College professors were fired for taking the Fifth Amendment when questioned about their associations with the Communist Party.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 3: \u003c/strong\u003e Larry Kaplan tells the story of Harry Keyishian's landmark challenge to the Feinberg law, which was a major victory for academic freedom. Keyishian was a graduate of Queens College who witnessed several of his professors being fired during the McCarthy era.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 4: \u003c/strong\u003e Frank Warren reflects on changes in the ethnic demography of the Queens College student body and Queens itself.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 5: \u003c/strong\u003e Frank Warren explains how the civil rights movement broke the repressive atmosphere of the 1950s.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of full interview:\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eDr. Lawrence Kaplan (1934-2021) was a student at Queens College in the 1950s. He taught at Queens for several years in the 1960s and then joined the history faculty of City College in 1967, where he remained until his retirement in 1995. Dr. Frank Warren was a professor in Queens College’s history department for 50 years, beginning in 1962. Upon his retirement in 2012, he had served as chair of the department for 18 years.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eIn this roundtable discussion, Kaplan and Warren speak to the students in Dr. Bobby Wintermute’s History 392W Oral History Seminar. Among their recollections are the development and changes to Queens College’s curricula and student body over the decades; the McCarthy hearings and subsequent firing of many tenured professors in the 1950s; campus protests relating to the Civil Rights movement and Vietnam War in the 1960s and ‘70s; and the changes brought about by open admissions and the establishment of tuition at CUNY.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Collected as part of the Queens College Spring 2013 History 392W Oral History Seminar taught by Prof. Bobby Wintermute, for the college's 75th Anniversary Oral History Project."]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["1950s - 2013 (temporal)","Queens College, Flushing, Queens, NY; City College, New York, NY (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2013-03-06 (Created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Dr. Lawrence Kaplan (Interviewee)","Dr. Frank Warren (Interviewee)","Bobby Wintermute (Interviewer)","Rebecca Rushfield (Interviewer)","Students in Spring 2013 History 392W Oral History Seminar (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["http://digitalarchives.queenslibrary.org/search/browse/40511"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 1:\u0026nbsp;\u003c/strong\u003e Larry Kaplan describes how Queens College\u0026rsquo;s first president, Paul Klapper, created a high-quality liberal arts curriculum at the school, and recalls his own experiences with this curriculum as a student in the 1950s.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 2:\u0026nbsp;\u003c/strong\u003e Larry Kaplan discusses the McCarthy hearings in the 1950s and how three tenured Queens College professors were fired for taking the Fifth Amendment when questioned about their associations with the Communist Party.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 3:\u0026nbsp;\u003c/strong\u003e Larry Kaplan tells the story of Harry Keyishian's landmark challenge to the Feinberg law, which was a major victory for academic freedom. Keyishian was a graduate of Queens College who witnessed several of his professors being fired during the McCarthy era.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 4:\u0026nbsp;\u003c/strong\u003e Frank Warren reflects on changes in the ethnic demography of the Queens College student body and Queens itself.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 5:\u0026nbsp;\u003c/strong\u003e Frank Warren explains how the civil rights movement broke the repressive atmosphere of the 1950s.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of full interview:\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eDr. Lawrence Kaplan (1934-2021) was a student at Queens College in the 1950s. He taught at Queens for several years in the 1960s and then joined the history faculty of City College in 1967, where he remained until his retirement in 1995. Dr. Frank Warren was a professor in Queens College\u0026rsquo;s history department for 50 years, beginning in 1962. Upon his retirement in 2012, he had served as chair of the department for 18 years.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eIn this roundtable discussion, Kaplan and Warren speak to the students in Dr. Bobby Wintermute\u0026rsquo;s History 392W Oral History Seminar. Among their recollections are the development and changes to Queens College\u0026rsquo;s curricula and student body over the decades; the McCarthy hearings and subsequent firing of many tenured professors in the 1950s; campus protests relating to the Civil Rights movement and Vietnam War in the 1960s and \u0026lsquo;70s; and the changes brought about by open admissions and the establishment of tuition at CUNY.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/101/017/small/Kaplan_Warren.jpg?1605018093","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101017","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 6 - 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Since one of, I knew, there were three teachers with tenure who were fired. I had classes with two of them. In fact, one of them I had as a teacher the semester she was asked to leave when she testified before a Senate committee and then, unsatisfactory as far as they were concerned; and then a couple of weeks later, she was fired. So, I forget how many years ago, I helped to set up a exhibit in the library on... and it's now on a website that the library has somehow made photos of the text of that exhibit. And then, along with the history department here, an old friend of mine, Professor Warren, who I, go back 60 years, or something like that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=0.0,70.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: We started graduate school together.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=70.0,71.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Yes. And we finished in different ways. But somehow I kept in touch. That's a surprise to wind up at. I taught at Queens for three years, from ’64 to ’67. But I wasn't in the history department, even though I'm a historian, so that's a little complicated. So first I'll start by talking about what the college was like in 1951.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=71.0,99.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Give Frank a chance.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=99.0,101.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Just to introduce myself. I'm Frank Warren. I have, had taught at Queens (I'm retired now), from 1962 until last year, and I went through the major events of the protests of the ’60s and early ’70s and saw a lot of changes, which I'll be talking about.  But I've been, not a student, but a professor at Queens and retired after 50 years, last year.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=101.0,135.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: So I guess I had the experience of being a student and also a teacher at Queens, and I wound up teaching at City College from 1967 to I guess ’95. Gentleman of leisure after that time. So let me tell you something about the college, how it looked in the early '50s when I started here. The Spanish-style buildings, they're still here, were the only buildings really. The H Building on top of the hill is still here. I don't know if they call it the H building; they must have another name for it now. There were about five of those Spanish-style buildings and one exception; well, there are two exceptions – there was an old gym behind the Spanish buildings on the other side of the campus and there was Remsen Hall, which was a new building when I was an undergraduate here. It was the only new building that was different than the Spanish kind of buildings.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=135.0,205.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Doing the exhibit [on] McCarthyism at Queens College gave me an opportunity to learn a lot about how Queens was founded and who was the first president who had left by the time I entered Queens College as a student. The first president was a man named Paul Klapper. One of the buildings is named after him, Klapper Hall I believe. He was an educator who believed in a demanding liberal arts education. He put together a really, I guess being, starting 1937, in the heart of the Depression, he really had his, had an opportunity to select first-rate faculty, people with national, international reputations, and all of you are in at the moment, Powdermaker Hall. Well, she [Hortense Powdermaker] was a very famous anthropologist. I never took a course with her, but I knew that she was internationally respected for her work. There were so many other faculty members who were really outstanding, like a man named Banesh Hoffmann, an English guy who worked with Einstein and [wrote] a biography of Einstein. And he taught me, he taught me Math 1.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=205.0,293.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: And he wrote a book called The Tyranny of Testing, which was one of the first critiques of multiple choice short answer tests. And it's still valid.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=293.0,307.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Yeah. I should add that sooner. I think for the most part there were no adjuncts, at that time. We're getting all these first-rate teachers who taught elementary introductory courses, and that should tell you something else about the early days at Queens that, there were 128 credits needed to graduate and half of those credits were required courses. I think that's probably Klapper's influence that there was this CC,  Contemporary Civilization, sequence, which was two years’ worth of it and when you read original documents. The great philosophers, theologians, and by the time you got to [semesters] three and four, you were reading Freud, famous economists. It's just, for someone like myself it was really ready-made in the sense that I had no background when I started college, I had no special education, I was a, throughout high school, not a very serious student. And then came here and was reading Plato as a lower freshman.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=307.0,389.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Larry, what other kind of required courses were there?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=389.0,392.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Well, first of all, language. If you had three years of college, a high school language, you had to take two years of that same language. And I was a poor language student so I had, had my troubles with it. If you wanted to start a new language, which I contemplated doing, you had to take nine semesters of that new language. So you had in addition to these two years of CC, Contemporary Civilization, you took a year of art, a year of music. You took four semesters of English, required; my first semester you had to write a term paper. I had no idea what a term paper was.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=392.0,436.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: Excuse me, can I ask, where did you go to high school, and where was your schooling before [Queens College]?  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=436.0,440.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: I went to a high school that doesn't exist anymore; it was Far Rockaway High School and [I] was not a stellar student. You could have the average and get in, you still – this was another aspect of Queens College, which I didn't learn right away. I don't know if the other city colleges had this requirement. It was much easier for a male to get into Queens College, based on their high school performance than for women. Women had to have higher grade point averages. That's not what was generally known, but some of these women figured it out. I think some of the best students here were women. I should tell you something about the student body also. \n\t\t\t\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=440.0,484.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: One thing, on the other requirements, when you were a senior, you had to take, I think it was called the LLA exam, which was music, art and literature.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=484.0,496.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Now there were four of those special exams. This is a Klapper introduction, you had to take four special exams that had nothing to do – well, it had a lot to do with your coursework, but wasn't part of your requirements, your course requirements. You took, after taking CC for two years, you had an exam in contemporary civilization that was made up by the contemporary… I mean, there was a choice of questions, but they were essay questions. It was a separate exam and I knew people who failed that exam. The next exam was LLA, Language, Literature, and the Arts, that combined literature, music and art. And by the way, did I mention you had to take four semesters of English, along with one year. And they would assign books, outside books that you got no credit for, for for reading questions on those.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=496.0,551.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: By the time I came, I think they dropped the CC, separate CC exam. But they still had the LLA.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=551.0,559.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: And also, there was a senior, when you got to be a senior and thought you were finished with your language, like I was, there was a reading exam in your language which you had to pass, again. If you managed to squeak through language like I did, to have to pass that again when you had forgotten all your verbs and stuff. And fourth, finally, there was in your major, a specific exam, which was separate from any coursework, and you were given different questions by a department that you majored in and so forth. I knew people who failed these exams and had to take them over again, even someone who failed their major, exam in their major.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=559.0,605.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: How many chances did you have to take the exam?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=605.0,608.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: This I don't know, but you couldn't graduate without passing the exam in your major.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=608.0,613.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: How often did they offer the exam again, did you have to wait another semester or the [year]?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=613.0,617.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: The next semester.\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=617.0,618.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: So if you were a senior and you were about to graduate, you.\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=618.0,621.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: I knew, I knew a woman who didn't get a degree until after she graduated, you know, should have graduated. So this was, I think, Klapper had in mind an elite school, you know, elite liberal arts school. He was very committed to that. And academic freedom was one of his themes. But apparently that didn't work out too well for him or the college in the years after he was president. The real problem Queens College had was that the locals, local establishment, the political establishment, mainly the Democratic Party and also the Catholic Church, did not want a college here. They opposed having the college because city colleges had the reputation of being, quote, “communistic red inspired.” There was a whole investigation of City and Brooklyn College in 1940 where a lot of faculty members, pre-McCarthy, were fired. And the local establishment didn't want the college, and it was only through connection between La Guardia, Mayor La Guardia and Colden. I think that, I'm not going to get into that whole story, but they never really were reconciled to it. I actually wrote down a quote which I didn't think too much of my talk would be in terms of quotes. But the form it took in the 1940s after World War Two was for these conservative groups with the support of local newspapers, some of which don't exist anymore, like The Long Island Press. I think the Star Journal is still there, not sure about that. And they object, these groups objected to political organizations which were leftist, the press at least, sympathetic to communism, all levels of these groups. And there was the dean chosen by Klapper was a member of the German Department named Harold Lenz, he was kind of a liberal fellow. He was a member of the ADA, the Americans for Democratic Action, and so forth. And he said, you know, I don't agree with these organizations, what they stand for but, you know, this is an academic environment. And there was enormous pressure put on the school. But let me just read a quote from this man who was the head of the Democratic Party in Queens, a man named James Rowe. So this is a direct quote: “All un-American groups and professors who tolerate them must go. Queens is an American, God-fearing community. And those who don't see eye to eye with us have no place in our midst. We want students taught Queens-style or not at all.” \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=621.0,812.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: And this is the kind of a mentality, so starting, McCarthy's famous speech of 1950. This was in '47 and the form it took was not only attacking the college, but especially Dean Lenz, because they wanted him to forbid any left-of-center organization. And there was a steady attack [by] in some of these local newspapers, like the Long Island Press was steady in attacking Queens College, which, you know, went back a long way. So they went after Lenz, and they wanted Klapper to force him to resign. That was the pressure it took. And he refused to fire him and Lenz stayed on. But I think the pressure got too much on Klapper. I guess he got more than he expected when he became president here and he resigned. Now I think a couple of years later he died of a heart attack. He was succeeded by a much more congenial academic, a regular dean at City College known for his repressive behavior. I can tell you about that, but that's getting off on a tangent -- known for his conservative authoritarian approach to education. No hesitation about it, repressing civil liberties. As soon as he became president, he banned all those organizations, that had been these newspapers…[unclear] The new president, Theobald, John J. Theobald. A lot of stories could be told about him also. Perhaps, maybe I'll get one in.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=812.0,932.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Is he the one who eventually lost his job because he had somebody, some of the city workers were doing things on his home or something?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=932.0,940.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Well, close to that. He became, he was promoted for, after his like nine, 10 years as president of Queens, where he really did a hatchet, tremendous hatchet job, he became head of the Board of Education of New York City, and he was found to have students in shop classes build him a boat. And that, that was discovered and then he was embarrassed and had to resign. And I guess he, I never heard of his activities after that, but I was glad to see [he had resigned].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=940.0,965.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren : He’s off on his boat.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=965.0,969.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: I hope he at least gave them a passing grade for that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=969.0,972.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Well [students laugh again], so that was John J. Theobald. But he had left Queens by then. When he came back, I think it was about '49. And one of the first things he did, well, it took about a year or two, was to fire Dean Lenz, the liberal Dean of Arts, claimed he wasn't qualified for the new curriculum. But the new curriculum never appeared, so it's clear that he just did what these political, reactionary political forces wanted. He banned speakers. He wouldn’t let any speaker to come to the campus unless he approved of them. So students tried to get away with this and they suffered consequences, like have the speaker appear outside on the Quad. And when he discovered this, or speakers appear outside the gates of Queens College. In either case, he called in the students and punished them. They would be suspended. And Gutman was one of these students, a historian that Frank and I are familiar with. Herbert Gutman, a labor historian, was an undergraduate student here in the late ’40s. Not only did he [Theobald] fire them, or suspend them, he did something nasty. Since a lot of those students had parents with small businesses, he gave the names, addresses to local papers so their parents would know about their activities. I'm sure a lot of them would not approve or were upset about it, especially since they had the address, so, so customers would know who had done something that was favorable to communism. They had speakers who, like Howard Fast was invited. He wound up speaking outside the gate.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=972.0,1087.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: A famous novelist, communist novelist, wrote also some history books too.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1087.0,1096.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Yeah, popular history, some of them sold very well until this period where people generally were afraid of communism. Then starting in the early ’50s, and this, not necessarily precipitated by the college or the president, Senate investigating committees such as McCarthy; there was a Senator McCarran, investigated the city colleges. And teachers, actually; they went after teachers who were active in the union, as they did in the elementary, in the public school system as well. And when you were called before this committee, and originally two faculty members were called initially, very popular, and they all were popular teachers with reputations of being exciting teachers, one in economics, Vera Shlakman. If you're interested, I could tell you more about these people, and Oscar Shaftel, from the English department. They were, at this, at this investigative hearing, you were asked at first, “are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?” Some of these people may have been a member of the Communist Party in the ’30s, you know, as students or young faculty members, but my impression is they were no longer communists. In fact, I once looked at Shaftel's FBI file that showed to their knowledge he was not a communist as of 1940 or beyond. So they know these guys aren't communists. Why did they call them in?  Well, you know, they wanted to humiliate them. Because if you answered that question, I was a communist, but I'm not now, well, you had to then answer the next questions: “who did you know that was in the Communist Party? Who recruited you for the Communist Party?” You know, they could have asked you names. “Do you know, if you know Professor O'Brien or somebody else,” you know. And if you had a friend or a colleague, you don't want to be an informer. You know, it's not a nice thing to be an informer to save your own neck. So the only way to avoid that was to take the Fifth Amendment. So saying, “I refuse to answer that question on the grounds it might incriminate me.” But then you were known as a Fifth Amendment communist and according to the Board of Higher Education, you couldn't teach anymore. And that's – there's a legal thing about that, which I could explain but it would take me too much time. If you didn't answer, if you took the Fifth Amendment, you could be fired. And this was tenured professors. According to the rules of tenure, you, in order to turn someone away who has tenure, you have to, there's a whole procedure where you have to have a hearing regarding your qualifications as a teacher and your role in the classroom and whether you publish. None of that was carried out. The first three people fired that are known – Shlakman, Shaftel, and the third one was a popular English teacher named Dudley Straus – all refused to answer. You could tell, you could tell off the committee, you could do whatever you want, you say, “You have no right to ask me this question.” That was irrelevant; as long as you did not answer that, was that known as the 64-dollar question: “Have you now or have you ever been a communist?” You must cooperate with and name names. If you did, if you refused to name names or cooperate further and took, say, this freedom of speech, denial on the grounds of the First Amendment, freedom of speech, or assembly – didn't work. Because they could still ask you questions about everybody else you knew.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1096.0,1345.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: You know, you could go to prison.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1345.0,1347.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Yeah. Look it, if somebody, an official informer, says he saw you at meetings and you had denied you were a communist – people were convicted of perjury and went to prison, and a lot of people connected with Hollywood refused to cooperate on the grounds of the First Amendment, freedom of speech. And they went to prison for a year. Famous actors. Dalton Trumbo, the writer, won the Oscar award for best movie or something. What happened to these teachers? There's a whole story, but Dudley Straus, who I liked, was one of the best teachers at Queens College, never, never taught again.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1347.0,1396.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Question over here.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1396.0,1396.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Was Queens College singled out?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1396.0,1398.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: No. Brooklyn College had a similar experience. City College was investigated in 1940 by a state legislative committee known as Rapp-Coudert. And a lot of famous people who taught there were fired because for various reasons. And one, one professor went to jail for saying, when they asked him, he, he didn't take the Fifth Amendment. He decided to answer because he was a well-known communist. He said three people I know, one's disappeared, one is dead and so forth. And they said, they got him on perjury and he spent over, I think, over a year in prison. But all kinds of famous people were fired. Some of you may have heard of the historian Eric Foner. His father and uncle were fired in 1940. And I just told this anecdote that the historian who took Jack Foner, Eric Foner's father's place, who, he taught at City College, was Richard Hofstadter. One of the most important American historians. There are a lot of stories, a lot of stories.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1398.0,1477.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: When I was at Rutgers as an undergraduate in this case there were two professors named [Simon] Heimlich and [Moses] Finley, who I believe taught at Newark Rutgers actually, although I was on the New Brunswick campus. And to make a long story short, Finley eventually went to England, became professor [of] ancient, probably one of the world's authorities on ancient history, knighted by, eventually knighted by the Queen. And Sir Finley.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1477.0,1513.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: You get an idea of the quality of these people that, that was of no concern. One of the reasons for going after communists, was they, you know, they influence students' opinion. You can't, can't trust them, but they never, the investigators never investigated or concerned themselves with classroom performance. That was irrelevant. And all these were known as the superior teachers. Oscar Shaftel was the faculty adviser of the student newspaper and students testified that he never inflicted his opinion on them, on what news item, and what their interpretation should be. He was mainly concerned with their ability as budding journalists. Yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1513.0,1567.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Were there any protests over that?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1567.0,1569.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: There were protests but you see, this is one of the effects of the McCarthy era. People got frightened because if you protested, you must be sympathetic to communism. And one of the results of the – not only Queens, Brooklyn – but throughout the country, it put a whole pall on political activities. In other words, you really looked out for – I know people who went through the '50s who will not, up to this day, will not sign any petitions. They're really – you signed a petition, they found you signed a petition in 1936 and you applied for a job or you're a school teacher, you were fired, or you were brought before one of these committees. It was really bad news.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1569.0,1617.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Some context: think about how in the 1930s and 1940s New York City was a very politically active place. You had different members, you associate with different political action committees, different anti-fascist committees, different peace committees, you know, all different stripes of political discourse, all of which could be singled out and were singled out in the ’50s as being communist fronts or related to the Communist Party.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1617.0,1648.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: See, a lot of it started, well, it started, you know, in 1940. But, you know, the Taft-Hartley law was it ’48, had a clause that if the leadership, anybody in the leadership was a member of the Communist Party, that organization could not get their rights, labor rights. And it's interesting; a lot of these first professors who were fired were active in the teachers union. It was, a, well, there was a radical teachers union and the more conservative one. Naturally, they were in the more radical one. But I think Shaftel and Shlakman were executive, one was a treasurer or something like that. Even in elementary school, if you ever get into this, you'll hear the name Irving Adler. He was a treasurer; his name was associated with the cases of teachers who were fired. So the Taft-Hartley law started this anti-communist thing. And if people denied they were members of the Communist Party, they would be called before these committees. You know [unclear] one of the aspects of it, they went after labor unions. It was really, it was one of the first major steps to weaken trade unions that had gotten stronger in the ’30s. Yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1648.0,1730.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: I was wondering if we could bring it back to the college. What was it like to be a student and how did it affect what you were doing in class, whatever, to see teachers being fired all around? How did it affect academic?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1730.0,1738.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Did it happen in mid-semester?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1738.0,1740.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Yes, I, Shlakman – it was like the third week of the term she left. And here's a, here's an ironic story. She was replaced by a guy who had the same name as I do, Kaplan, Neal Kaplan, who reemerged because, well, but he was, he was, he was a veteran of World War Two. He had kind of left-wing views. He was being called before the committee. But, but a lot of faculty members did, if they knew they were going to be called, because after the Senate committee went away, then the Board of Higher Education, I think it's called the Board of Trustees now, had their own committee. And you had a, they had an investigating committee. And you had to do, you were asked the same question and you had to cooperate. And if you didn't, you were fired. So a lot of people either went before the committee and realized they're getting in trouble. The guy who replaced Shlakman, I think went before the committee and realized he didn't have a future and he resigned. That was kind of smart to resign because then you weren't fired and you didn't have the reputation, necessarily have the reputation.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1740.0,1813.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: I'm sorry but I'm…\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1813.0,1813.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: I didn't finish answering your question.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1813.0,1815.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebeca Rushfield : What was it like for you?\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1815.0,1817.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan : As a student.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1817.0,1820.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: The disruption, the dislocation, the fear. Did it affect?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1820.0,1824.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Well, I mean, I took Shlakman as one of my first electives because she had the reputation of being one of the best teachers in the college. And here's a guy [her replacement] who didn't have his Ph.D, I don't think he ever got his Ph.D, not that that made him a worse teacher, but he, he knew that he was replacing a superior. It was Labor history. Labor economics was the course. As a sophomore.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1824.0,1849.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Not to supersede, but especially in your opinion, how did the quality of those replacements measure up?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1849.0,1856.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Well, there were so many stories. I could go on forever. I won't. The philosophy department, which I got affiliated with when I started teaching here, they had about four or five. They had a world-renowned philosopher, Carl Hempel. I don't know if anybody [here has] heard of him, analytic philosophy and so forth. He left. Faculty who could get other jobs didn't want to hang around here. So there's at least four, the chairman of the philosophy department, and about four others took jobs elsewhere. I think about three of them or four of them even got jobs at Stanford. I mean, these were high-quality people, they got good jobs and they didn't have to deal with this nonsense. So, I mean, the quality, I think philosophy, well, it's hard for me to say, the quality of teaching. I forgot to mention that Klapper had hired teachers, university people, who were on the loyalist side during the Spanish Civil War. Garcia Lorca's brother taught Spanish here and there was another guy who taught at the University of Madrid who was, taught elementary Spanish. He [Klapper] really had quality people throughout the college, people who were…Now there were people who stayed. There is, I don't want to talk, I don't know how assignments work here, but there are, the president's file at Queens College is in existence, and I was able to gain access to it when I did this exhibit and there were teachers. I feel bad mentioning names, so I maybe I won't at least [unclear]. That teacher you mentioned to me earlier.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1856.0,1963.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: She's dead.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1963.0,1963.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: She's dead? She, she, she appeared before the committee and had to apologize for things she had written. She said something to the effect that, you know, it was a different stage of my life and I really meant this, I didn't mean that. You can look at her file.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1963.0,1979.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: [Unclear] people called upon to revoke or disown your own intellectual heritage work.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1979.0,1987.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Students of course did not sign petitions anymore. They didn't even like to go to any meetings in groups protesting what was happening to deans and the faculty members. Because they had...If you wanted to circulate a petition, you had to go outside the door. You needed the president's permission to do it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1987.0,2008.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: As you say, Larry discovered that, the history department lost a very famous U.S. historian. Henry David, who was, wrote the first book on the Haymarket Affair, resigned because it was…\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2008.0,2023.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Yeah, they would have, he would have been fired, because he was never a communist, he was an anarchist. So, but he had a whole file like this, [unclear] he wrote for Science and Society. And he knew all these people. So students didn’t know they were missing out. Well, especially the ones there said, I wanted to take a course with David, but he's not there anymore. I have to say, Frank, I thought my education, I was a history major here, and there are some excellent history teachers, [J. H.] Hexter, who's a very renowned in English history; [Richard W.] Emery was an excellent teacher. But American history was weak. When I came to graduate school I was really, I wanted to major in American history for various reasons, my language limitations, and my background had been very, really negligent. I never even heard of Hofstadter; he was, you know, this was 1951 by, when he published his famous book, The American Political Tradition, in  '47 or '48, which was widely used in colleges and it wasn't used at Queens when I went through; they just didn't have anybody in American history anymore.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2023.0,2097.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Do you think it affected the enrollment and quality of students who wanted to come to Queens College?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2097.0,2106.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Well, you know, it's, people come to college for various reasons. They don't know too much about...their, you know, their neighbors or friends or relatives of applicants say, “What do you want to go to one of the city colleges, it's run by communists, a lot of communists there, it's not a good place to be.” I'm sure that will influence students who are worried about graduate school, medical school or law school. That the city college was not a good place to – who is going to give you recommendations?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2106.0,2138.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: In many cases, parents are making these decisions with their kids.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2138.0,2142.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Yeah, well you know, don't forget, it was free. When was it...\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2142.0,2148.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: ’75 or ’76 that changed.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2148.0,2151.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Students used to complain about the registration fee of $12.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2151.0,2158.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: If you came for, when I came out here [unclear], if you came from Nassau County and agreed to teach in the public schools for two or three years or something like that, you could come from Nassau County free. Otherwise, if you weren't going into teaching, you had to pay. Not many students did come from Nassau County, but there was even an addition to Queens and Brooklyn and free education, there was even the possibility of Nassau to get free education if you agreed to teach in the public schools for a few years.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2158.0,2193.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: I’m reminded there were four city colleges at that time: Queens, Brooklyn, Hunter and City College. City College being the first going back to…\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2193.0,2201.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Were there any community colleges then?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2201.0,2203.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: No, I'm not sure. I remember, in the beginning, but they weren't a factor then.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2203.0,2213.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Any questions before we continue this? That should give us, can I ask one question and then comment and perhaps to prompt another; the hearings come to an end in, in the mid-’50s.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2213.0,2228.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Well, there's something, I can't resist saying this because I have certain bugs that provoke me. There's a book that came out and Dean Savage, well, someone else told me about it. Somebody called me up and said that there was on the Leonard Lopate show discussing this book. She sent me an email. And she's a person who works on some of the early investigations at City College. She said someone called up that program and I didn't catch his name. I think his first name was Leo: “Did you know a Leo?” So I said, that must have been my economics teacher who was replacing Shlakman, who also had, was fired, who resigned rather than get fired. And she wanted to speak to her.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2228.0,2280.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: I forgot your question.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2280.0,2283.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren : The question, how long it lasted, did it…\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2283.0,2286.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: How long did it last? Well, the bug I have is Harry Truman. That doesn't mean much to any of you, but to me, I run into people said, oh, I'm like Harry Truman. He told you what he believed and, a guy with not much background but he rose to responsibility. And this book points out the role of the Supreme Court. This book on, called Priests of our Democracy. I don't know if Dean Savage mentioned it the other day. Marjorie Heins, H-E-I-N-S, and it has a lot to do with Queens, as well as Brooklyn College. Brooklyn was, suffered equally. In fact, if I thought Theobald was a bad president, the president of Brooklyn was worse. He was terrible. He suspended student newspapers, you know, banned [unclear]. Truman, I mean, his appointees to the Supreme Court, voted against, voted for all this legislation; there was a law in New York State called the Feinberg law. Well, you had all, every member, anyone who took a job here had to sign the loyalty oath. And if you didn't sign the loyalty oath, no job. Or if you had the job and they asked, forced you to sign it. And if you didn't sign it, you were fired. So the Feinberg law appeared before the Supreme Court. And Truman-appointed members of the Supreme Court voted for it. People were finished.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2286.0,2386.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Now, there is a very interesting story here in this book. I don't know if I should tell it to you, but it had to do with a Queens College student who I didn't know, he's a year older than me, who witnessed the firing of his professors and he was angry about it. You never, you know, so frustrated, what can you do, you can't do anything about it. Years later, he got a Ph.D or he was finishing his Ph.D, and he got a job at Buffalo, the State University at Buffalo. And they had a loyalty oath and he refused to sign.  So he and about four other professors had a test case, goes before the Supreme Court and I think I wrote down dates, not too good at those anymore. It was declared, this Feinberg law, which was constitutional and justified or legitimatized the firing, and anybody in New York City schools, colleges who didn't take the loyalty oath and was fired; that overturned that decision. And from that time on, it was, I guess, in ’67, that rings a bell, and it's named after this former student at the Queens College. [He was the lead plaintiff in the landmark Keyishian v. Board of Regents case.] And this book actually begins with a preface. His name was Harry Keyishian and K-E-Y-I-S-H-I-A-N. He'd been a junior, I guess. I was a sophomore, at Queens College. He refused to sign it. The case went before, eventually, before the Supreme Court. They decided that the Feinberg law was, violated the Constitution, violated academic freedom. Nobody talked about academic freedom. Anyway, there's a nice connection between the firing of really outstanding teachers who were really cheated. That's, I mean, that's the last thing I'll say, in addition to the whole political repression, the pall over the country, there are great teachers out there who were provocative. No one would question that. But they really kept you interested and forced you to think and do exciting things, but they weren't there anymore. And there is not only these tenured professors, but all the professors who refused to have anything to do with loyalty oaths and went elsewhere. And people who resigned. By the way, last comment, the Board of Higher Education, or the trustees, admitted they were wrong somewhere in the ’70s. And a lot of these fired teachers with tenure, who were fired with tenure, were given compensation, given a pension and probably partial, some of their pay. It's a bit late in the day, but anybody who resigned without tenure, didn't get anything. OK.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2386.0,2571.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Frank, go ahead.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2571.0,2578.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: OK. I'll try to touch on a number of things. First of all, I don't know if anybody previously has talked about the demographics of the Queens student body at all. Has anybody talked about that? One of the tremendous changes over the years is the change in the ethnic composition of Queens. When I started, and these are just my guesstimates, maybe Larry can [unclear], I would guess in 1962, that 80 to 85 percent of the students were Jewish, 10 to 15 percent were Irish or Italian Catholics. I know I had one Lutheran in, when I taught CC, because on my, because I taught Luther; and on the exam I gave, a student wrote, 'Luther believed, unlike what the professor told us.' So I assumed he was a Lutheran. I taught three sections of CC and one section of U.S. history. I had one African-American student in those four classes, not one in each, but one. That's one of the things that obviously has changed dramatically. Partly it came in response to the open admissions that have since been changed, but came in the, in the late ’60s, early ’70s. And again, I haven't checked all my dates here. But even then, after open admissions and, and the demography, didn't change radically until the demography of Queens itself changed, where neighborhoods that previously, like, as you go down Main Street, previously been largely Jewish neighborhood, now it's, you know, all the Asian community in downtown Flushing. So the demography of Queens changed, and then the student – that's when really the student body composition changed. In terms of, of required courses that Larry said is absolutely right in terms of required courses. When the student protests started in the ’60s, the major issues were Vietnam. But underneath there were some, some college issues. One of the college issues that was changed, but not until the mid-’60s, which always amazes students, was that women were not allowed to wear slacks and that was forbidden. And I gave a exam my first semester here, and there was a giant snowstorm. I lived very close to the college. I walked in 10 minutes, snowstorm, I walked, it took me like a half an hour to get to college. Two women students showed up for my final exam in slacks and said, “Professor Warren, is it all right, you know?” I said, “This is, this is a college campus, it's not a concentration camp or a jail. Yes, you can stay.” But that changed.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2578.0,2775.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: And, and one of the other things, local, academic, was there begins to be pressure to change the requirements. And when the Academic Senate, which exists, and which was created in 19-, I think the first meeting was ’71, in the next couple of years after that, required courses were eliminated, except for English Composition. A lot of people look back at that and say that was a, a drastic mistake, and I think probably it was a mistake in the sense that, rather than eliminate them altogether, they should have changed them or maybe changed some of the kinds of courses, or change the number of courses. But one of the things that encouraged faculty, not the students, they were eager to drop required courses, was the faculty itself. Before the Academic Senate, there was a Faculty Senate, and a proposal that was made to lower the number of required courses, because you had your 60-some general education courses, you had your 30-some major [credits] and in some cases, if you were in some of the sciences or music or education, it might be more than 30, you were left with very few electives. And so the students wanted more electives and some faculty felt that...The Faculty Senate met; then there were all these proposals for reducing. And what they came out of, this is about 1968, '69, they came out with a proposal to raise the number of requirements. And a number of faculty, including myself, just got disgusted and said, OK, you think you can do anything you want, but now you have the Academic Senate with students and so you had [unclear]. Looking back, it probably was a mistake, although I will tell you it benefited the Social Science division. Without the requirements, students took history and academic… I didn't know that at the time, but one of the provosts later told me, you know, he said, you people had a great time of it when there were no requirements because... All I saw was students taking more Phys. Ed. Registration used to be in the gym, in person, and I sat between Health and Physical Education and something else, and the long lines [were] to get into Health and Phys. Ed. courses. And then this was later changed. You had reintroduction of requirements, but never as much as, as, as originally. You had the LASAR [Liberal Arts and Sciences Requirements] requirements, and now then you have the PLAS [Perspectives on the Liberal Arts and Sciences], and now you're going to get the Pathways, I mean I can't, and they are all basically forms of divisional requirements of so many courses in divisions.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2775.0,2962.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Back then when students registered, did they have an ID? Did they use their ID? How did they, I know it was by paper?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2962.0,2966.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: I think they, I think they had ID. But I didn't get into that end of it. I mean, I just sat in line and answered questions when, when students…I was sitting next to Math. I think Math was on the other side. And there used to be a professor, who's still here, who would quiz, this is after some requirements had been reintroduced, who would quiz the students on algebra in order to locate them in what section they belonged, what level they belong. And a student would come and he'd say, OK, can you do that problem? The poor kid was probably standing in line for an hour.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=2966.0,3003.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: Yes, there were IDs. I was here ’72 to ’76 and I have somewhere in my house my old ID.\n\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3003.0,3027.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: OK, let me then get into the ’60s and the protests of the ’60s and then what happens in the ’70s. First of all, there's two things. On one hand, the, I should say also something about the quality of the students when I first came. It was a very select quality. I mean, the students that, I came from an Ivy League and I probably had a little of, well, you know, these students won't be as good or something. And I remember my first exam, I gave all essays, but I gave a couple of “identify and give the significance of.” And I took a couple from a long textbook that really had a little choice. I mean, they didn't, they were minor, just, just not expecting. And boom, there was at least, at least a quarter of your, the class, I think there was some that memorized the textbook. I once said to one of the students in my first class, it was back at a Phi Alpha Theta occasion, I said, you know, I think there was also something unhealthy about it as well as, as, as rewarding for a teacher. But it was something. I mean, you must have just, you know, just studied all the time or something. She argued it wasn't; I was saying there was more in life than just, you know, getting As, and she was saying no.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3027.0,3130.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: So in any case. But I never was one of the faculty who opposed open admissions or thought the students, because there is a public responsibility in terms of a public college of not, of educating more than just the top students. And I mean, you can say the quality of the student body did go down, but we still had plenty of good students and, and some students emerged when they came into the college and, with very poor backgrounds, and emerged as solid, good students.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3130.0,3172.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: There used to be a prize – Larry, probably when you were here – of a student who started on the academic warning the first year and later got honors or something like that and he was nominated. You had to apply. I had one student – \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3172.0,3179.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: With academic warning?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3179.0,3190.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: You know, probation.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3190.0,3195.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Who started out with probation?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3195.0,3200.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: No, no, who started after the first semester or second semester, was on probation. And they'd be let go.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3200.0,3208.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: I was temporarily suspended from my high school. I was voted teacher's despair, when I was a senior. I had to go up on stage with people who are getting most likely to succeed, you know, most popular and all that.\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3208.0,3230.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: In any case, I had this one student who I nominated, he didn't get it. He started and was on probation and I got to know him. He came from a Queens neighborhood. None of his friends went to college. None of his family had gone to college. He was the first kid in his immediate neighborhood who'd been to college. And he started off and you know, he didn't do well. And then he came back and studied and applied and he wound up as, not as A-plus, but a good A student, B-plus student. And I think that's very rewarding, I said. So just that. Anyway, get to the protests. On one hand, the, from the repressive atmosphere of the ’50s, although even in the late ’50s, there was, I don’t know, a student strike about, I don't know, who's supposed to speak. It was Howard Fast or somebody.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3230.0,3290.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: I have to say something. That was my wife's story as an undergraduate [Carol Pasternak Kaplan, QC, 1959]. So there's an irony. I mean, to show that there, that the college administration really was in favor of freedom of speech and academic freedom, they had something like a Free Speech or something like that Week. We could bring in speakers and have discussions. This was late, this was like '56, '57 I guess. And she being a troublemaker, asked that there's a guy, a Communist head of the [unclear] editor of –\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3290.0,3301.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: The Daily Worker. Gates.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3301.0,3321.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Oh, John Gates [unclear], they invited him to speak at Academic Freedom Week. And when the administration got wind of this, they met together with all other presidents at the City University, I think there were probably more than four, and they passed the rule, the Gates Rule, you cannot have access to City University's facilities if you had been convicted by the Smith Act. All right. He had been convicted, he went to jail because of the Smith Act. He had been a Communist leader and editor of the Daily Worker. And he went to jail because of that, I mean, that was part of the repression of the McCarthy period, which had sustained. And the whole purpose of this free, this Academic Freedom Week was to show that they were no longer repressive.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3321.0,3381.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: She organized a strike?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3381.0,3385.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: No, I think that was probably a protest but, you know, it's, you don't get too far with them.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3385.0,3389.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Of course the irony is that, that Gates, that Gates, after the Khrushchev revelations, left the party very bitter and angry; he had been a Spanish Civil War vet.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3389.0,3399.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Yeah, that's right. Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3399.0,3403.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: So, on one hand, to move from this repressive atmosphere, 10 years later to students taking over buildings and in mass protests on campus, it seems like a very short period. On the other hand, there is a kind of buildup of, to the protests of ’69 and ’70. It's not that in ’69, suddenly out of nowhere, political activity on campus had begun. In ’62, I came and there were already people who had gone south in the Freedom Summer, of ’60...I think they started in ’62. They [unclear]…\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3403.0,3446.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Yeah, Dean Savage talked about that last week.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3446.0,3447.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Oh, yes. Yeah. And Dean was one of the people, he wasn't at Queens yet. And there were, and there were protests. The World's Fair was over in Flushing Meadows and one of my great friends at Queens, now dead, organized, helped to organize the students who picketed the World's Fair. I'm not sure if it was discrimination in jobs, but, so there was activity going on. And then later there was, when, let's say, Martin Luther King was assassinated, there was a kind of spontaneous, just people just congregated on campus. It wasn't an organized protest. And then, of course, as the Vietnam War developed, it began to get the buses down to Washington. You know, students would rent several buses. I mean, there were, you know, it wasn't just 10 [students] or one bus load, four or five bus loads of students would go down to the protest in Washington. Sometimes faculty would go with them. I went there once, twice. Sometimes we drove ourselves. So it was, so there is kind of a build-up. There was a, one time where, I guess this must have been ’64 or 5, there was a, a student fast against the war where students stayed overnight in the old student union, which is where the computer people are. It's over a wing of the student cafeteria; students stayed, stayed overnight to, and fasted, to protest the war. But they had to have a faculty, a male and a female faculty advisor stay with them. And so they asked me if I would be the male one. And they asked my friend Ruth Graham, Ruth, if she would be. And Ruth was an old, old radical from the ’30s, she was an adjunct in history, but she also was used to good living. So she said, “Frank, I'll take you to dinner before the fast.” So we had a nice dinner and then joined the fast. But all these early signs, the signs, I'll tell you, you know, you sometimes think of a protest, always as solemn, serious, dedicated, radical. And they were, but they were such fun. There were so many humorous things that happened during them, amazing.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3447.0,3627.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: My argument in terms of the McCarthy period really is that the civil rights movement is what broke the, the mood of repression, because people were frightened and with good reason in the ’50s, what could happen to them. But when you get these civil rights people here who went down south and they were red-baited and insulted and they just, you know, so we're gonna keep going. I think that changed a kind of mood on campus that things were now possible. And then, the Vietnam War, of course. Now some people think all of the protests of the Vietnam War were just because students were getting drafted. And obviously, that created a lot of pressure on people. But the fact of the matter is, they were protesting a war they didn't believe in. It was not that they were being drafted in a war that they thought was right. I mean, there weren't mass protests when there was a World War II draft. There were conscientious objectors, but there weren't student protests. When, when, when people were getting drafted, they protested, they were protesting against being drafted in a war they did not believe in. So it's not simply that the draft caused the protests, as some, I think cynics [might say]. I think you have to put the two together, that one, their lives were being impacted. And two, it was a war they didn't believe in. Yeah, somebody had a question.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3627.0,3720.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: I could ask something here myself. The students who are taking part in the protests and they're all from Queens, they're from the neighborhood, from the community. They're opposed to the war. How is that being responded to by their parents, who themselves are in the community and have different mindsets in some cases?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3720.0,3745.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: I think there were differences. There were students who were what they call red diaper babies, that is, they had grown up in households that were radical, communist, socialist, what have you. There were others that I think it created tension between them and you.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3745.0,3769.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: It's a relatively working-class borough at the time.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3769.0,3773.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Yeah. The other thing, of course, just to in terms that, when I came to Queens in '62, it was much more of a middle-class student body. And, and even, even in the ’60s and the protests, I would say the student body was still more middle-class than it is now. And they didn't, I mean students work now, I imagine most of you work several hours a week, sometimes 20, 30 hours a week. Students didn't, they, they, they were going free, they didn't have to.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3773.0,3805.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: I would like to comment on what he just said. I think that's a very important point, that connection between the civil rights movement and the beginning of protest. There were two points, one about middle class. I think this shows that this was pre the height of the ’60s. There were a lot of families that sent their sons off, middle-class people sent their sons off to fancy colleges like Ivy League, or you know, Big Ten schools and they thought their daughters should stay at home.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3805.0,3843.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: The daughters, they're worried about their daughters. You know. Stay home, they would stay pure. I won’t go into detail.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3843.0,3852.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: I once had, was making an appointment with a doctor and he said, asked me where [I worked], and when I said, I teach in Queens, he said, let me ask you a question. He said, “Is it right to offer my daughter a car to stay at Queens than to send her off someplace?”\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3852.0,3871.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: That was usually the tradeoff; if you stay home, we'll get you a car, but stay safe with your parents’ oversight.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3871.0,3877.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: My girlfriend had the same kind of offer. She went to Vermont. She grew up in Great Neck and her parents wanted her to stay in the area, and Queens was one of the schools that they threw out.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3877.0,3889.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Now that question about, you know, you asked how did parents react to students who may have been much more militant than they were regarding the Vietnam War. There were stages in people's support of the war. Initially only a handful of people were against the war, like '64, '65, a little bit more, like Schlesinger, sort of typical. By the time you reach '68, '67, there are more people changing their mind; you know, the Tet Offensive was almost what killed them. Support, yeah, by the ’70s, and that's where Nixon stopped the draft so students wouldn't be as militant as they had been. But there was different stages in it. If you – it's almost like the 1930s, ’40s, if you were against the fascists and the [Spanish] civil war of the ’30s too early, you were known as a premature anti-fascist. These were people who were premature against the war in Vietnam because by the late ’60s, oh, everybody you know was against the war, except people in the gun lobby or something.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3889.0,3966.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: I remember going to a demonstration at Eisenhower Park, on campus. I think it's [former New York Governor] Averell Harriman, somebody who like, two or three or four years had supported the war, and he was making these big anti-war speeches there. And that's it. Even, even in the, but even in terms of student bodies, even when they get to ’69, it wasn't the majority of Queens College students who were actually sitting in. I would say the majority of Queens College students were against the war, definitely. Many of them supported the sit-ins. Some of them simply were neutral, or they may have thought they were, they may have thought they were too radical, but they were still against the war. So I think, again, the political activism does go in, in stages. That's why I say in one sense you look at it, it's fast. On the other hand, it's kind of building up. I remember in the, though by around 1966 or 7, sometime around there, there was a panel on the, on the, on the war and there was a congressman from Wisconsin who'd come and Richard Goodwin, who was an adviser to Kennedy, liberal adviser to Kennedy, came, and I and some other faculty were on this panel, and I think it was a moderator asked, it was student protests you know had been building up, and they asked, what do you, what do you think will happen if we have a kind of more liberal president? I don't, maybe, maybe it was even, no it couldn't have been Nixon. Maybe it was Johnson. Maybe [unclear], let’s say if [Robert] Kennedy. I know it was, it must have been ’68; what would have happened if Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, or Eugene McCarthy was elected? What will happen in terms of all these protests that were mounting and Goodwin says, well, I think it will return to normal. And I said, I think I said, I think the students by then, a contingent of students that had become so alienated from the, what they called the system, that they were not just going to find their way back in quite as easily as just having a more liberal president.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=3966.0,4128.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: In some ways, I was right immediately. Maybe in the long run I was wrong. But certainly at Queens next year, '69 was the explosion. And this explosion was triggered by a representative, two representatives from I think it was General Electric speaking, coming to recruit on campus. Now, it wasn't speaking on campus, it was recruiting on campus, and some people say, well, recruitment is an act of, you know, it just like free speech, anybody can recruit. But there's another point of view, and it was articulated, I think, best by an historian named Henry Steele Commager, who distinguished between speaking and recruiting. And speaking is when you speak and advocate and take questions and debate; recruiting is when you simply try to get people to join the organization. And a college may or may not approve of recruiting; they may permit it, but it is not the same right of free speech as speaking. In any case, whether you agree with that or not, these students escorted these two people from GE recruitment, because GE was a military, you know, big military contractor, off campus and were suspended and there was some kind of hearing. Everybody agreed that the hearing, even people who disagreed with the policy, these were kids from SDS. It was the Students for Democratic Society that had itself undergone an evolution. At the early SDS was kind of a, they were radical, but they were kind of what I call moralistic radicals; they, they took the principles of the, you know, all men are created equal and say, how do we not live up to it? But by, in the mid-’60s, SDS had decided that they would admit any radical group. And so you have the, of the Progressive Labor who were the basically the Maoists, you have very few communists but, at Queens anyway, I think it was only one self-identified Communist Party member. You have some Trotskyists, another radical group, and then you had, within SDS, you had this Progressive Labor with the Maoists, then you had another group called the Labor Committee, which were also very Marxist, and then you had your kind of free-wheeling people. Well, these, these kids were from, I think, the Labor Committee. They were, you know, they were Marxist in their ideology. And they escorted them [the GE recruiters] and they were suspended. That triggers it. And the students then began sitting in the hallway down Powdermaker, in the front hallway where the Dean of Students’ office was. And other issues; a, a left-wing faculty member from the English department had been, not denied tenure, but not rehired. And when asked why, the chairman had said, look, she has a, I'm trying to think of the word. I'm having a senior moment. A non-collegial attitude, that's not the word, that's not the word, it'll come to me. But, in other words, she wasn't cooperative, collegially. But she – students liked her in the classroom and she had published. And so that, then there was a report, it's still in existence, that a person who was denied tenure cannot be, hear the deliberations of the committee. It's called the Max-Kahn report. And there was another issue, which I can't remember. But those, those became, originally, the non-negotiable issues, because the students demanded that they, you know, rehire this teacher, that they drop the charges. That leads to ultimately at least, this is, it leads to the police coming in at night, arresting, they’re asked to leave the building; about 20 students [and] one faculty member don’t. They’re arrested.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4128.0,4421.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: In the meantime, there's also protests going on in the SEEK program. This is the program, which at that time was basically a minority program to get more minorities into Queens. Now, it's, SEEK is based on income, not just so, anybody from any, you know, poor family background is eligible to go into the SEEK program. But the SEEK were, there were some internal things in the leadership of SEEK and they were protesting, too. So you have two simultaneous protests going on, the kind of largely white student protests against the Vietnam War, and then the basically African-American protest, based on SEEK. And I could go through the evolution that leads eventually to sitting in at the, in Kiely Hall and eventually the charges. And after the arrests, the new charge was, drop the charges; they demanded the college drop the charges. The president of the college at that time was a man named Joseph McMurray. McMurray had been a New Deal, considered a liberal New Deal official, I think he had to do with housing in Washington, but he was completely, he didn't understand. I don't think he was an evil man like Theobald or Gideonse at [Brooklyn] City.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4421.0,4507.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: He just, he began to think, that giving in had to do with his manhood. He put out a flyer once. You know, I respect your opinions, but you must respect my, you know, things. And it was like, and, and the student charges would never dropped, the students, the male students were sentenced to 20-some days at Rikers Island; the females were, had a fine against them. And, and, and my own role in this was, that's what you got, my own role in this was, first of all, when I got involved, my colleague [unclear], nobody remembers him now, he died recently, but my best friend Mike Wreszin was very involved from the beginning and he was really, along with a couple of other faculty, one of the faculty members who participated, sat in with the students many, not every night, but many of the nights. He called me up and said – I was on sabbatical, actually – he called me on and said, “There's action going on, can you come down?” I think it was a Friday. I said, “My parents are visiting, once they leave, I'll.” So I came on a Sunday. I sat in and listened to the students debating and discussing strategy. And then I went home. And that night, the police arrested the students. Michael didn't stay in the building. He always felt guilty about that. But the one Communist Party member, a kid, said to him, “You're better useful on the outside than on the inside.” You know, they wanted his voice.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4507.0,4626.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: [unclear] Rebecca, you were describing, living around the corner.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4626.0,4630.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: I remember, I grew up around here. I remember late afternoon and I thought it was a Friday. The police came, ringing the college, all around ringing the campus.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4630.0,4639.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Right. That's, that's when the, the first arrest was, at night. When they ringed the college it was after, to get the students out of Kiely and also get the SEEK students, and all, everybody came out at that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4639.0,4657.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: You said the cop squad [unclear].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4657.0,4660.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: I just remember seeing the [unclear], you know, with the black armor.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4660.0,4667.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: After that, after that, I got involved. First, trying to make sure, 'cause what had happened, there was a moratorium, kind of, to try to settle things and where the students left up for several days, it may have been over spring break, and then nothing got settled. So the students went back in and I got involved largely with trying to make sure that the police were not called again. There was a faculty group that was supportive. I can't even remember the name of it. Actually, there used to be a lounge with this and next door here, a great big student, faculty lounge where we had our meetings. And so I got involved in that, I got involved. After the, after people went to prison, I got involved with trying to raise money to get, to pay the fines of the women who were not, who didn't get sent to jail, but still had these large fines.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4667.0,4745.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: How much were the fines?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4745.0,4748.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: I don't know but we raised, I mean, it must have been several thousand dollars because we, we tapped everybody. And it was very funny. Larry and I were reminiscing once about the head of the Philosophy department gave 100 dollars, something like that, and sent me a little note that said – it was basically Mike Wreszin, myself, and a former colleague Sol Resnick trying to raise this money. He said, “I disagree with everything you've been doing, but I know you believe it sincerely; here's a hundred dollars.”\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4748.0,4787.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Jack Noone, his name was.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4787.0,4788.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Yeah, Jack Noone. I knew, I had a radical dentist in Queens. He told me [unclear], he said, “They shouldn't sit in, they should blow up the building.” He retired to Florida. Anyway, I sent him, he sent me some money. So I was involved in that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4788.0,4808.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: The big thing, though, I was involved in, along with Mike Wreszin and, was organizing. We felt, look it, we lost everything. We didn't get any demands. Students are going to jail. We have to do something. And so we organized this counter commencement where we got Benjamin Spock, you know, the baby doctor who was a big anti-war activist. We got him to agree to speak and we walked out of the [address] at a cue and it was when I stood up. We walked out on cue and went to part of the campus over behind Rathaus. It was a little green there and listened to speeches by Spock and some of the students. I was, I was, I should not say, I was not a leader of the, in the sense that Mike Wreszin was, or even Sol Resnick was. I would say that Mike, myself, Ray Franklin from the Economics department, and Sol Resnick from the Political Science department were the most active, not in sitting in, because there were a couple of other faculty members, one was arrested, but in organizing the faculty, and I often said that Mike was the charismatic leader, speaker; that Sol Resnick was the strategist – no, that Ray Franklin was the strategist, that Sol Resnick knew how to carry out the strategy. And I was the person that was told, you gotta do this. So, so we wanted names of faculty members who would agree to the counter commencement who would sit, who would agree to walk out. So I sat in front of the old cafeteria gathering names, getting all the flack from people who opposed this and there were faculty members who, you know, would say [things] – go back to Russia. All of that. In fact, when we walked out, there were people shouting, “Go back to Russia!”\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4808.0,4939.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: As Larry knows, I have never been, I've been, I've been, what do we call it, left liberal or maybe left, but I've never, so…and so I would go out, getting people to do something later on. At a later demonstration in the city, in the city in the early ’70s at the Honeywell Corporation and get the faculty, I made, I had to make all the phone calls to the faculty: “Will you come and sit in and risk being arrested or, if you can't do that, will you come and picket the corporation?” So, so I don't, I mean, when I say I did this or that, I'm not taking any, that I was any major thing.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4939.0,4987.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Actually, one of the things you said reminded me of one of the effects of the McCarthy period. It was a permanent fact. People would say things, you know, I believe in civil rights for Blacks in the South but I'm not a communist. I don't like, I don't like communism as much as you do but I think they should have luxury, luxuries like food and clothing. It really had that effect for a very long time. You got the people, you know, the go-back-to-Russia response, but to divorce yourself from any, any mark of being a communist so that, you know, granted a lot of territory to the opponents. No, I don't believe in communism. I don't like Khrushchev.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=4987.0,5040.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren : Sorry, Mike Wreszin used to say that in the ’50s and even later that if you want to be taken seriously, you'd have to say, “I'm not a communist, but I believe Blacks are being discriminated against.” So, in other words, you had to qualify that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5040.0,5057.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: That's right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5057.0,5058.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: I’m just wondering. With all the things going on, what did it mean for, sort of academic life? What did it mean for studies; what did it mean to be a student?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5058.0,5063.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: OK, it meant different things. For a lot of the radical students, it meant not doing much about schoolwork. I had one student in class, he never did any work. I forget if I gave him an F or a D. I never, I never made, you know, you had to do the work. Wally Rosenthal, he was one of the big student radicals, was in my survey, I think he got a C. I never, never. Later he [the student who got an F or D – not Wally Rosenthal] turned up in a graduate class. This is a graduate, I had them reading a book a week and writing a, a response to it. His were great. He had a, he was just into other things. There were some student radicals who were able to maintain their academics, but a lot of their own academics suffered. One, one of the few mistakes I made was in a little seminar with this one very bright radical kid, didn't get his paper in and he said, “I'll get it in, but I need the grade because of graduate school.” And I knew it would be an A and I gave him an A, and he never got the paper in. And I met him at the Poor People's March in Washington. This was after King's assassination, an encampment  of people demanding justice. And I met Jeffrey and I said, “Jeffrey, where is my paper?\" And Jeffrey's “I'll get it to you.”\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5063.0,5173.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren : This is like two years later.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5173.0,5176.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: So, other students, I think, I think some of them were impacted but other things you remember were going on at this time. You know, you walk down Powdermaker Hall and the whiff of marijuana was, was there. So there are a lot of…you had kids walking, walking into the class, you know, some of them stoned.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5176.0,5204.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: How was it like to be a teacher while all of this is going on, and you have this, radical as you are or aren't, you have this commitment to being a professor and teaching?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5204.0,5215.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: I, I always, I always believed that you continue teaching and that incidentally, that's what prevented Mike Wreszin from not suffering the fate of this one kid, guy who was fired. He, that professor, made the mistake of not coming to class. Mike Wreszin would sleep overnight [at the protests] with the students, but he came to class. And so I always felt that I, you know, I had an obligation to all the students that, and so there was I. And I tried to, you know, keep the same standards for everybody.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5215.0,5256.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield: [unclear] OK, the history department sounds like it's –\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5256.0,5264.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Divided.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5264.0,5268.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nRebecca Rushfield : – the more radical department.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5268.0,5276.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: No, no, no. The history department was very divided. There were, there would be Mike and two or three others that were sympathetic. There were a number of liberals who were against the war, but they didn't want to get involved. There were faculty that I thought would be involved that never got involved. And then there was a contingent who was very, very anti. There was one faculty member who didn't, who wouldn’t speak to me. I would, I would go down the hall and I would say, “Hello, Alan.” You know, I wasn’t going to let [unclear].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5276.0,5306.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Was there a generational thing involved?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5306.0,5308.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: No, he was…he may have been a little older, he had been in, in the end of World War II. Some of it was generational, perhaps. I mean, the chairman of the department, I went to set at Rosenthal Library [the hearing was not set at Rosenthal Library, which did not exist at the time, but at a public building in Queens], Rosenthal was a congressman, an anti-war congressman in Queens. He had some hearings. And I went in there just to see what I knew the chairman was going, the chairman testified about America and Vietnam. And, and he was glad we were in Vietnam, he rested easily in his bed. And it was very…In 1970 or ’71, I, we were, Mike and I were so alienated from the department in terms of ability to get elected, anything, Mike didn't even show up to a meeting. I went to a department meeting where the election was held and I got one vote for the curriculum committee, one vote. Now, nobody wanted, curriculum committee is not something that people are clamoring [for] and that – one vote. Now, two years later, I was elected to the P\u0026B [Personnel and Budget Committee, executive committee for the department]. So things…but it still lingered. So that, and continued on. Just quickly, when I was elected chair for the first time, the divisions primarily were lingering things. People thought I would somehow overturn the department and, and, and, and the people supporting me felt that the other person running was a tool of the ultra-conservatives. He and I were friends. And, but those were basic divisions, and the ballot went 20-some ballots, tied.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5308.0,5426.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: So he and I sat down together and we – at that time, the government of Israel had given the Likud one semester, one year, and Labor for the other. And we said, we'll have the Israeli solution. I would serve for one and a half years; he would serve for one and a half years. And that's the only thing that really brought the department [unclear] together.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5426.0,5445.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent : Ah, last week [referring to Jon Peterson’s talk in this class].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5445.0,5450.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: That’s what Jon Peterson thought.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5450.0,5455.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Great example here of the testimony on the same event from two different persons.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5455.0,5462.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Jon was the person I was running against. \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5462.0,5465.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: That’s funny. I was listening now and I was like, wait…\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5465.0,5467.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Of course, some of the, some of the ultras retired. The ultra conservatives did retire and that enabled. And you brought new people in and then we, yeah, I forgot Jon had preceded me [as a speaker in this class].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5467.0,5469.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: I’m glad that happened…\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5469.0,5471.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Because nobody wanted to turn the election. If you can't come to a – nobody wants to turn you over to the president to decide. And that was always the threat, that if you, because I had run for chair before, very unsuccessfully, and other people had run unsuccessfully before and, and, and then and nobody got enough votes; it wasn’t tied, but we [didn't] want to turn it over to the president when, then the one with the least votes would drop.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5471.0,5511.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Students don't know about academic politics. I was at a place where the president made all of the decisions. And then…Our department was so split, City College history department, and one time they had to have an outside committee to hire a new chairman. That's when Gutman came in, which was a big mistake.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5511.0,5530.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren : Oh that’s right. Brooklyn had to have that too when John Hope Franklin came in and then later on, just a few years ago, Brooklyn had it, and that the two sides fighting. And they brought this historian in from St. Louis, who they, they thought would be the candidate. And they had, I guess, they met, and the two sides started fighting in front of him. And he said, forget it, I'm out of here.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5530.0,5554.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Something about the city colleges, I don't know why, but there’s a lot of animosity.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5554.0,5556.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Well, part of it, of course, is there is democracy. At a number of colleges, the president, for instance at Brown, where I went to graduate school, the president or the dean of faculty, or the provost, he would go to the department and kind of get their feeling. But he would appoint the chair of the department. The department didn’t elect the chair.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5556.0,5581.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: I remember the stories at Temple, where I did my graduate work, was that there had been such a huge blowout over the union and it was bitter, bitter, bitter over whether to go out on strike or not, that they couldn't resolve anything. They couldn't decide on, not only president of the department, they couldn't resolve committee membership. And ultimately, I think it was for five years, that the presidents of the college, the college president's office stepped in and not only appointed the president, but composed the different committees.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5581.0,5617.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Let me, let me just finish up with a few things. The next year, [after] '69, next year, of course, was Jackson State and Kent State. Most of you know Kent State, and Jackson State was a Black college where two students were killed and that led, led to a student strike nationwide. I know some colleges weren't affected, but you're amazed that the colleges that were affected there, North Dakota students struck and, and so, and actually classes then were called off. They realized they couldn't function. And what would [be] reconstituted is, you could continue your class if you want, but you were meant to turn your class really into a discussion. Either cancel it or turn it into a discussion session about the issues of the day.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5617.0,5668.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Remember the graph that Dean shared with us last week with a spike in 1970 that showed the highest GPA?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5668.0,5671.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: This one, this graph.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5671.0,5679.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Oh, that's interesting. Oh, that's right, because people, you basically gave people what they had gotten on the midterm. But, or you, or some people gave their students all As. There was a young, young historian who Larry knows better than I do.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5679.0,5687.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan : Zoller\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5687.0,5690.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Bob Zoller—   \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5690.0,5695.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: How was I to know you were going to mention…\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5695.0,5700.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: —who earlier had refused to give his students grades because they might get drafted. And I don’t know what happened at the end.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5700.0,5711.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: He's still going.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5711.0,5711.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Yeah, he's still going. He was one of the conservatives who was radicalized by the war.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5711.0,5718.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Yeah. A lot of people were radicalized by the Vietnam War who would never…Well, the ’50s, they came out of the ’50s, they were conservative. And all of a sudden the Vietnam War occurred.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5718.0,5727.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Although on the other side of the professorial level, there were lots of professors who were concerned, who were liberal and got burned. Two examples. I could go on. One, I don't know if you remember Louis Filler, who wrote one of the first books on abolitionism.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5727.0,5770.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: I know.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5770.0,5777.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: He taught at Antioch, which is a traditional liberal college. He simply got burned. I don't get angry very often. But I exploded at him at a, when I was with a group of faculty, when he started mimicking the African-American students, you know, when the dialog, and I just ripped into him, I called him a racist. But he was a liberal. He was one of the guys before all this happened, was one of the liberals. The other person was a person – I was at Brown – that I taught under in a senior seminar and he was a senior professor. And when I met with him, he once said, “I never met an intelligent Republican or an intelligent Christian.” And in 1972, he endorsed Nixon in a big ad in The New York Times.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5777.0,5840.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: I saw that ad.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5840.0,5843.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren : And I was tempted, but I didn't, to write, “Dear Professor X. Have you lost your intelligence?” So, but let me, so, this was Kent State. Jackson State. Here, in terms of my activity was, we wanted an anti-war speaker at the commencement. And they agreed. They agreed, they had. And we had Howard Zinn, an historian some of you may know, People's History [of the United States]. But they moved the commencement that year from the campus to Madison Square Garden because they were afraid, even though we had another anti-war there might be some demonstration or some walkout. You know, and walking out of Queens is one thing, but what do you walk out of Madison Square Garden? You know, 8th Avenue or something?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5843.0,5863.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: In the midst of that, all that, a lot of high schools were going on strike, too. And somebody came up to me one day and said, you got to come down to one of the rooms down in Powdermaker 143 or 145, and there are a bunch of junior high kids who have walked out of their junior high. You got to come down and listen to it. I went down, we went down and we listened to them and they were holding this sophisticated political discussion of strategy. You know, what if, what if they offer us this? What if they do that? You know, and I turned to him and I said, my God, what will it be like when they come to Queens?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5863.0,5905.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: And of course, when they came to Queens, not, I don't mean literally, but that generation, it all had changed. That was ’70. They would come, let's say, ’74, ’75. There was still radical activity on campus. It was still, but nothing great. There was still there, in fact, of the major things that the faculty was involved in, it was off campus. In response, I think it was a response to the bombing of Cambodia. Faculty led. What, ’72?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5905.0,5930.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: 70.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5930.0,5933.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: But maybe it wasn't Cambodia, maybe it was, it was something that had just come out or maybe it was renewal of bombing. Anyway, a group of faculty from Queens had gathered faculty across City University, organized a sit-in in front of a Honeywell Corporation, I think it's on Fifth Avenue. And were going to serve an arrest warrant on the president for, of Honeywell, they made the fragmentation bombs, you know, we're going to, on him for war crimes. And so we had a sit-in and tried to serve him; of course we didn't get to him. And eventually the police came and arrested and I was arrested with this group of other faculty members.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5933.0,5993.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: But that was off campus. I mean, in some ways, it was, by then we had a, that Joe Murphy was president of Queens and Joe Murphy was against the war. And he had a reputation as a liberal, and he knew how to co-opt people, if he didn’t…He once, Sol Resnick and Mike Wreszin, he had us up to his, his office and said, “How would you like to go to North Vietnam?”\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=5993.0,6022.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: I don't really know, you know. And Mike, of course, said, “I'd love to.” And of course, I think he was trying to seek, really, tell us, he's on our side, you know, I don't know if he ever had the connections, but, so, so the president had changed, the mood, and then we had the beginning of economic problems in the country, and in the city, leading up to the budget, through the budget crisis of ’76 and…\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6022.0,6053.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Yeah, Ford to New York: drop dead.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6053.0,6054.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: And, and then out of that comes tuition. And then so, by the end of the ’70s, you were into a different thing and then, and then Carter is elected president. But what is the defining moment in Carter's administration? Maybe it's past history now. But for the generation of students who entering the college, the defining moment was the Iran hostage crisis. And now you have students who are, you know, think America is being pushed around. And, and, and that's it. It's interesting to think about what is that, what, when do students gain a kind of perspective on life, a political perspective? You know, World War Two, the McCarthy period, perhaps Vietnam, civil rights and Vietnam. But now it was Iran crisis and students, a dramatic change, even sometimes when their opinions don't change, but their politics had changed. In 19,  what was, what was the first Reagan, ’80?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6054.0,6128.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Yeah, '80 election.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6128.0,6129.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Eighty, it may have been the ’80 or...\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6129.0,6132.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: First time he ran was [unclear].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6132.0,6133.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/184","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Carter\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6133.0,6134.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/185","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: was ’76.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6134.0,6135.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/186","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Well it was Mondale, that was '84. In the Mondale election I developed a questionnaire for my class on issues and who they were planning to vote for. The majority of the class by a clear majority was going to vote for Reagan. On the issues they vote, they supported Mondale. So, something [changed] had, you know, they were either, you know.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6135.0,6167.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/187","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: When I think of the students going back to ’37 were always very liberal at Queens and probably in the ’50s, they began to dealing with that change; the ’60s changed that too.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6167.0,6180.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/188","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: I think the students now, I would say, are liberal. They're not always politically active. But as far as the student body is concerned, Mike Wreszin would get very upset if the students aren't demonstrating, you know, in the Iraq war, in Afghanistan, the same way they did in the ’60s. He, he, particularly we'd talk about Columbia, ’cause he lived up to Columbia. He said, “What's happening at Queens?” I said, well, you know, there's a little thing, but nothing, but I said, but the generation, they're working, you know, it's, it's harder. They're holding, some of them, many more. I mean, in the ’60s, you have some nontraditional students; you know, older students, especially in the evening session. But in the day session, basically, they were all kids out of high school. But now in the, in the day session, we, we get nontraditional students. We get students who are going to class, taking one or two courses a semester because of full-time workers.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6180.0,6242.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/189","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Or parents.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6242.0,6244.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/190","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: So I would defend the students. I would say, yeah, be nice if they protested. But I think, you can't blame them. You can't criticize them. They're different, they're leading different lives. They have different responsibilities. I don't say that excuses everything. But I think there is that element to it. So I go, I rattle on and on.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6244.0,6267.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Let's open it for questions from the class. Somebody has comments and thoughts.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6267.0,6270.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Getting out of Vietnam, colleges had seminars to help them, help the students get out of the draft.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6270.0,6275.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Teach-ins, they were called.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6275.0,6277.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Help the students get out of the draft and show them how to avoid the draft at Queens College.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6277.0,6285.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Oh, they, they had the, they had draft counseling, because I knew one of the draft counselors who was a history graduate student. They, I don't know if they had any, any psychiatric counseling and all that kind of thing that maybe some colleges did. I went to, the only time I've ever been to a Board of Trustees meeting was to testify against, to, let's see – I guess was that the time when if you were in the upper half of your class, you could be, you wouldn't, you would be exempt; in the bottom half, you wouldn't, is that it?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6285.0,6331.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Like, I can't, I can't, you know, some of this. It was one of the draft things that were, maybe it was even not, not sending the, the draft, the grades to the board, to the draft board or something. It had to do with the viewing, in a certain percent of your class, you were exempt. And if you were in the bottom, low and, and, and tried to persuade the Board of Trustees not to cooperate with the draft board. But I do want to say, you know, Queens College students were, you know, were pretty sophisticated, too, in terms of avoiding the draft. Although all of, all of them didn't. I mean, there were students that went into the draft.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6331.0,6377.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: That raises another question, too, about the possibility of lingering resentments by those who did go versus those who didn't.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6377.0,6384.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: There was some, probably some of that later. We, when I was chair, I introduced, because I knew would be popular, a course on Vietnam. And it was taught by a Vietnam vet who is a Columbia graduate student who, but who was big on anti-war veteran activity. And he had in his class, he told me, he had vets who were on the other side, who supported the war. But what was interesting is they bonded because they both have been through the same experience. They could talk to each other. They understood each other. But we had also on campus, there were anti-protestors. And when the students were occupying Kiely, there were a couple, one was my student, who came in and threw some kind of acid, I don't know if was terrible acid, but threw some, you know,  stuff into the students who were sitting in and then they chased these students out. Later, the government came and asked me about this right-wing student, who had applied for a job with the park department and given my name as reference. And they wanted to know, and I said, well, he had this episode, but I said it was, he was young. You know, this was years later. And I said, you know, it's nothing dangerous, I don't think. But so there was some, there was antagonism on campus. There were students who wanted to charge the, Kiely Hall, and drive the, them out. I think they were dissuaded or something.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6384.0,6488.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: But there was, there were, you know, it wasn't everybody sitting in and supporting; there were opponents.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6488.0,6497.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Did Queens College have a selected social service during the war?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6497.0,6505.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/201","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: A what?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6505.0,6506.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/202","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: A selected social service. It's a, it's, it's a policy with you in college, there at Brooklyn College, they're asking if you went to college, you didn't have to be drafted or if you were drafted, you would be drafted as like a, like a, like a cook or something like that; you wouldn't be on the front lines of the war.\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6506.0,6528.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/203","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: How can a college get that?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6528.0,6532.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/204","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: Would you get exempt from the war if you were in college?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6532.0,6534.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/205","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Well, so there was a college exemption for students, you had to maintain a certain GPA, and you were being in a program.\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6534.0,6542.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/206","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: That's, that's actually, I had that in the, in the Korean War that would just [unclear] down that, that, and then if you went to graduate school, you were exempt. I don't know.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6542.0,6558.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/207","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: I don't know anything where qualify for a non-combatant role. What you may be describing isn't so much related to college students as conscientious objectors or people with religious objections, the Seventh-day Adventists and other like pacifist groups ended up in Second World War, Korea and Vietnam as hospital corpsman, medics and such. And even then they would be exposed to combat, but they wouldn't be in an all-American capacity.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6558.0,6595.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/208","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Yes, yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6595.0,6597.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/209","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: You discussed in the beginning some of the demographics. You said in the ’60s, it was mostly white and you said, and you said it didn't start changing until the borough itself started changing demographically.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6597.0,6608.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/210","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Oh yeah, dramatic change. I mean, when the SEEK program came, was started in the mid-’60s, I guess it would be, SEEK, and I think we know when... Let’s see, it was here.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6608.0,6618.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/211","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: I was involved in that program, I remember, since the early ’60s. You know what it was?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6618.0,6626.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/212","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: It wasn't ’62.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6626.0,6627.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/213","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: No, no, middle ’60s.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6627.0,6628.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/214","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: It had Mulholland and Sol Resnick.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6628.0,6634.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/215","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Yeah. But even then, there were more African-Americans then on campus. But, and some of the people who came through SEEK were highly successful. But also it was a, it was, at least in the beginning of the courses they took self-contained classes, they were SEEK classes they took. And the proportion of African-American students in the history classes may have gone up slightly, but not all that much. But then Asian students, I think the dramatic change was when the borough of Queens changed. I mean, I've tried to think back to the first years.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6634.0,6685.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/216","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: It would be interesting to look at the yearbooks and extrapolate back from the senior picture three years to get a picture of when that demographic shift takes place. You know, like if you see in the 1978 yearbook, suddenly with a large appearance of African-Americans, extrapolate back three years and you'd be looking at ’75 to ’78 when that shift takes place.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6685.0,6713.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/217","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Actually, when open admissions starts, the purpose of open admissions was to try to get, one of the purposes, was to try to get more diversity. One of the first groups that started to come to Queens was the groups that had already been there in a slightly [lesser amount] – Italian and Irish Catholics who, who had previously not made the cut but now could get in, and it was free tuition at that time. Then the tuition changes. So again, it changes the, it may lessen the percentage of Irish and Italian vis-a-vis the Jewish students and increase that, but it didn't dramatically increase in terms of…\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6713.0,6768.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/218","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: That would be both a different demographic class shift at that time, with working-class Irish and Italians entering a middle-class school, but also two populations that will have been highly sought after by selective service during the Vietnam War for military service, so…\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6768.0,6789.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/219","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStudent: I was wondering if there are a lot of transfer students going here, because that's a yearbook thing.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6789.0,6789.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/220","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Transfers would throw that off.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6789.0,6795.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/221","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Yeah. I'm sure there were transfer students, but not as many as there are now. What there was when I started, was a, and it expanded, was a, really a separate evening session. In other words, you were a day session student or an evening session student. I don't mean, I don't think you would be denied if you were a day session going into an evening session course. But there was a separate administration. We had a, there was a dean of general ed of the evening students. We had an assistant chair that dealt with the evening students. So there's, but I mean, I can't say with any authority, but I, just talking to students, I had very few students I can recall who said, I transferred to [Queens College].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6795.0,6866.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/222","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Well, you have students who come from the two-year college.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6866.0,6868.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/223","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Yeah. Yeah [unclear]. Once the City University is created, sometime in the ’60s or ’70s ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6868.0,1961.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/224","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":", and you have this expansion of community colleges as well as expansion of four-year colleges and, and, and then you get, now, what half or even more than half have come through the community college levels.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=1961.0,6896.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/225","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: There's another anecdote on that, I mentioned, but when I came to Queens College in the early ’50s, there were about two, three thousand students at most, and the, as the college was transformed, was transformed, especially by all these buildings, the student newspaper had a favorite editorial line because at the first commencement, Mayor LaGuardia spoke and although I wasn't present then, it must have been ’41.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6896.0,6930.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/226","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6930.0,6933.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/227","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: Something like that. And he said something to the effect, “Keep your values high.”\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6933.0,6938.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/228","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: And your ceilings or your roofs low.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6938.0,6940.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/229","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: “Keep your values high and your buildings low.” And the student editorial would say, “the buildings are getting bigger.”\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6940.0,6948.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/230","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Were there, were there a lot of World War Two vets when you were here?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6948.0,6949.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/231","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: I wasn't conscious of…I guess I just missed them. I came in the early ’50s.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6949.0,6960.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/232","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Yeah, they would have cycled out, most of them would have cycled out by 1951. There would've been a still few holdovers.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6960.0,6967.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/233","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: If you talk to, you know, talk to Arnold Franco and some of the vets.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6967.0,6971.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/234","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: We had Arnold here. He once joined us.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6971.0,6972.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/235","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Yeah, I talked to a woman who was at Queens, was in the neighborhood, and she was at Queens right after the war. And she felt, and I’ve heard this, that the vets changed Queens a lot. Made students sit, they were very serious about their education.   \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6972.0,6994.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/236","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nLarry Kaplan: And faculty, I remember wherever you went, the faculty would say, all the best students I ever had were these vets. Donald Hedges [professor at Brown University] used to say. I wonder if it was true or not? Or just always the feeling like that. And in the beginning, they were the best students. Now they're not as good.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=6994.0,7013.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/237","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Not to detract from you guys.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=7013.0,7015.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/238","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: It was, it was in the ’60s, well, when I came to Queens in terms of the department, maybe had 12 full-time members, maybe? [It was] in the ’60s and early ’70s that the student body explodes and the faculty, I mean, the faculty that was hired, let's say between ’62 and ’70, I mean, that's, that was a majority of our department. So that after the budget crisis, literally, we did not hire a new faculty member; we're not given permission from 1976 to mid-1980s. That meant a generation of historians was missing. And so then it comes to the ’90s and now almost everybody in the department had been there so long and everybody was now a full professor, not everybody, quite, but it was really a department, it was one of the very expensive departments because everybody was a full professor and, with a few exceptions, but it was a very top-heavy department because of, because of this expansion in the ’60s and early ’70s, and then the budget crisis, that can affect our department, our college. I mean, we weren't the only ones.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=7015.0,7111.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/239","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: Well, we’re going to wrap it up there. Thanks again, Larry and Frank, for joining us.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=7111.0,7114.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/240","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nFrank Warren: Hope it's good.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=7114.0,7115.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019/transcript/20844/annotation/241","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBobby Wintermute: I hope so. We're going to find out next week.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/32276/file/101019#t=7115.0,7122.36408"}]}]}]}