{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/np1wd3qh3j/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Stan Shaw and Michael Wenger Oral History"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eStan Shaw and Michael Wenger discuss their experience initiating, coordinating, and participating in the Virginia Student-Help Project and the Jamaica Student-Help Project of Queens College in the early to mid-1960s. The Virginia Student-Help Project was an intensive education effort during the summer of 1963 in Prince Edward County, Virginia where public schools were closed for five years in massive resistance to integration. The Jamaica Student-Help Project took place closer to home. Starting in schools near campus, it eventually engaged 500 Queens College student volunteers in tutoring more than one thousand educationally challenged, under-resourced students across New York City. Shaw and Wenger discuss the support they received from faculty, what it was like to live in the black community in Prince Edward County, and life-long skills and lessons they gained from their experience. They also describe attending the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom in Washington DC in August of 1963. \u003c/p\u003e (summary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["http://digitalarchives.queenslibrary.org/search/browse/45813"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2020-07-15 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Tags"]},"value":{"en":["Queens College Alumni"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Video"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Stan Shaw (Interviewee)","Michael Wenger (Interviewee)","Annie Tummino (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Interview conducted as part of the “Queens College Student Help Lived Experience Project”"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["1960-1965 (temporal)","Queens College, Flushing, and Jamaica, Queens, NY; Prince Edward County, Virginia, Washington, District of Columbia (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (primary)"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eStan Shaw and Michael Wenger discuss their experience initiating, coordinating, and participating in the Virginia Student-Help Project and the Jamaica Student-Help Project of Queens College in the early to mid-1960s. The Virginia Student-Help Project was an intensive education effort during the summer of 1963 in Prince Edward County, Virginia where public schools were closed for five years in massive resistance to integration. The Jamaica Student-Help Project took place closer to home. Starting in schools near campus, it eventually engaged 500 Queens College student volunteers in tutoring more than one thousand educationally challenged, under-resourced students across New York City. Shaw and Wenger discuss the support they received from faculty, what it was like to live in the black community in Prince Edward County, and life-long skills and lessons they gained from their experience. They also describe attending the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom in Washington DC in August of 1963.\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA\u0026nbsp;Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/100/299/small/ScreenShot_Wenger_Shaw_Tummino_07152020.jpg?1603962763","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - SHPInterview_SShaw_MWenger_ATummino_07152020_CUT.mp4"]},"duration":7808.08,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/100/299/small/ScreenShot_Wenger_Shaw_Tummino_07152020.jpg?1603962763","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/100/299/original/SHPInterview_SShaw_MWenger_ATummino_07152020_CUT.mp4?1603962142","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":7808.08,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Full Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Okay. So I think we are officially recording. So I just want to start by saying our names. I'm Annie Tummino. I'm Head of Special Collections and Archives at the Queens College Library.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=0.0,15.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I'm Mike Wenger. And I was a Queens College student in the early '60s. Class of 1965.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=15.0,26.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I'm Stan Shaw. I likewise was a Queens College graduate, '65. Currently Professor Emeritus, University of Connecticut.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=26.0,38.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Okay. So today is Wednesday, July 15, 2020 and we are recording this interview using Zoom Video Conferencing. And this is being recorded for Queens College Special Collections and Archives and the Queens Memory Project.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=38.0,54.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: And it's a part of an initiative to better understand and document activities of civil rights, students of Queens College who were active in the Civil Rights Movement and the 1960s. With this particular project, the Student Help Project being one of those initiatives of Queens College students that we're exploring in more depth. So that'll be the primary topic of this interview today.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=54.0,80.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: So, and a little bit later, we'll touch on a little bit of the history of what this project is before we get too much further into it. But I just want to start by asking where each of you grew up.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=80.0,96.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I grew up in Brooklyn and Queens in New York City. Went to public schools. Graduated from Andrew Jackson High School.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=96.0,110.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I was born in Brooklyn and lived there 'til I was about eight or nine years old. My father bought a small hardware store in Woodmere on Long Island in Nassau County. And we moved there in 1949 or 1950, somewhere in that range.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=110.0,132.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I went to Woodmere-Hewlett public schools. Graduated from Hewlett High School. Spent two years at Cornell University studying civil engineering. And when it appeared that any bridge that I built would fall down in a hurry, I transferred to Queens College in 1961 and graduated from Queens in '65.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=132.0,162.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: And Stan, when did you start at Queens College?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=162.0,165.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I started in '61.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=165.0,168.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Okay.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=168.0,169.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. I actually started college in 1959 at Cornell. I started at Queens in 1961.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=169.0,181.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Okay. So today we are going to be talking about your involvement in a project called the Student Help Project. So I thought I'd just read a little bit off of our description that we made for this project of what the Student Help Project was. The Student Help Project, and feel free to chime in or make corrections, had two different components to it. One that was more local and one that involved traveling to the South.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=181.0,205.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: So there was the Virginia Student Help Project, which was an intensive education effort during the summer of 1963 in Prince Edward County, Virginia, where public schools were closed for five years in massive resistance to education, where the black children of the community were locked out of public education. And we'll talk more about that later.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=205.0,228.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Whereas the Jamaica Student Help Project— Jamaica refers to, my understanding is South Jamaica area of Queens, which was a predominantly black and low income area, not too far from the college. And the Jamaica Student Help Project was an effort to have Queens College students volunteer to tutor under-resourced students across New York City, especially starting in that South Jamaica community.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=228.0,256.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: It involved over, at its height or at the end of the project, at least 500 Queens College students volunteering, who reached over a thousand youth in the city at the time. Does that sound about right for kind of just starting definitions?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=256.0,272.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: It does.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=272.0,273.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yep, absolutely.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=273.0,277.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Can I comment that an important point to understand is that at that time, Queens College was overwhelmingly white. Very few minority students. And so part of the processm, in terms of these projects, was getting middle-class white students out and to see and be involved with a diverse population.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=277.0,312.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, I would agree with that. I would also add that this predominantly white middle-class student body, most of them were children of immigrants. And so that made somewhat of a difference in that they had some— how would I say this? Some feeling for people who were less fortunate than they were.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=312.0,342.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Thanks, that's really helpful historical context. So just to start off, what in your personal backgrounds kind of led you to want to be active and to volunteer on a project like the Student Help Project?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=342.0,355.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: That's interesting because you'll get two very, very different answers from the two of us. In my case, my family was not at all and never supportive of any of my civil rights activities. I saw as a fairly typical middle-class family, discovered over time that there was more prejudice than I would have imagined. And throughout all my activities, my father, for example, essentially told me I was being a fool.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=355.0,410.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: So as Stan said, my story is totally different. My parents were activists before I was born. They were union organizers. They were, when we lived in Nassau County, they were the only white members of the N double— nearby NAACP. They applauded any activist stuff that I did. And, and in fact, until I got to Queens College, I felt somewhat guilty because I had not been involved in any real activist work and I felt that somehow I was letting my parents down.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=410.0,463.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: My mother, I often have described her as the stereotypical little old lady in tennis shoes who never met a peace march, civil rights march, or pro-choice march that she didn't want to be part of. My father was more of an intellectual. He read Russian history and all of that sort of thing. And actually I think, ran for public office in the early '30s, long before I came along, ran for public office. He didn't win cause he was way too left wing. But so that's my background.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=463.0,503.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: So I guess as a follow up, I'm interested from Stan since— and after this, I might disappear for a minute to close my windows. There's some background noise here. I'm interested from Stan, since your family wasn't very involved or particularly progressive, or maybe less progressive than you thought, wass there something else that sparked your interest in being active in something like civil rights movement or activities?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=503.0,526.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I guess I discovered, maybe in, in high school I guess pretty much, that I did not appreciate hate, hate. I did not go along with prejudice. I ran into folks in high school who were very diverse. A lot of, a lot of Black folks, some Hispanic. And many were good friends and I started moving in, in a different direction than my family was. And got involved in high school with some, what were then called, human relations organizations. And began my focus on equal opportunity and equal access for, for people.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=526.0,598.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Another important point, which we can deal with more later, is that in high school, I began to meet some role models, mentors who supported this thought and they became surrogate parents in a lot of ways. By the way, I'm not showing up on the picture ever at all. Do you see me?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=598.0,625.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Say that again?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=625.0,625.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Is it— am I showing up in the screen? Okay.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=625.0,630.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: I'm seeing you Stan. And if you'd like, up on your right, upper right under \"View,\" I think you can switch to like a gallery view so you can see—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=630.0,639.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I, I— the little picture's on top. That's fine.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=639.0,643.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I should add something cause I actually went to public school on Long Island, the Woodmere-Hewlett public school system. There was not a single person of color in the entire student body from kindergarten through high school. There was not a single faculty member of color, a single administrator of color. The segregation in that area was—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=643.0,675.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: —successful.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=675.0,678.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, it was overwhelming. There's a book called \"Sundown Towns\" by Jim Loewen. And although I didn't know it, didn't realize it at the time and I don't think my parents did either, Woodmere and Hewlett really were \"sundown towns.\" The only time you saw people of color was in the morning when they got off the bus to be sitters, maids, or servants in wealthy white households, or in the evening when they were going back on the bus to go back to Inwood where most of the Black families lived.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=678.0,720.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: That was the only time you saw Black folks in our area, except some employees of retail establishments in the town. But it was a dramatically segregated community. And the only reason we were there was that my father, as I said, owned a small hardware store there and we lived on the second floor on the main street in town, over a barbershop because that's all they could, they could afford.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=720.0,761.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: And going back to your, your dad, I know you said he read Russian history. Does that mean he was actively interested in things like socialism or communism?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=761.0,770.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Absolutely. And you can take that however you want, but they were— I repeat, they were both union organizers and both radical left wing, I guess to the time they died.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=770.0,788.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=788.0,789.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: I know a lot of the folks that, you know, donated collections were alum from the early '60s who had those progressive parents refer to themselves as red, \"red diaper babies,\" for example.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=789.0,799.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. I didn't know that term until Mark Levy mentioned it to me. But given that definition, I think my parents would have definitely qualified. In fact, they were places where our friends could go and get a healthy dose of liberalism that they couldn't get from their own parents.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=799.0,824.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: So I guess moving to the student health, not student health— Student Help Project specifically, what are your first recollections of, of hearing about this project or wanting to get involved with it? And, and what, what interested you in getting connected to that project specifically?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=824.0,842.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Well, first of all, we're talking about two different branches, so we'll talk about each one separately. With the Jamaica Student Help Project, I had been President of the NAACP chapter at Queens College and met with— a meeting was called by one student and two faculty members, Dr. Kornberg and Dr. Rachel Weddington. We met at Dr. Kornberg's house. He was kind of the one who was beginning to talk about getting Queens College students out into the urban area.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=842.0,892.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: And we met and— Dr. Kornberg was ill and I don't think he lasted very much long after that meeting. I never saw him again, but— and the student who was there may have graduated very quickly. But Dr. Weddington and I moved forward. And the NAACP chapter at Queens began to be the focal point for organizing this tutorial.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=892.0,928.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: And we had support from, there was a minister of one of the churches and a lovely lady, Rosemary Beatty, who was a Community Action Coordinator for the Board of Education in New York City. And she opened up schools and gave us access. That was very, very, very helpful. And we started on a small scale that spring and that also became the training ground for the Virginia Student Help Project students. And Mike can tell you how that began.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=928.0,975.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Well—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=975.0,976.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Just to clarify, before Mike dives in, you know, really it sounds like both of you were pretty involved. It's not like something you heard about, and then you just signed up to volunteer. You were both integral in the beginning of this project since it started.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=976.0,990.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Okay. The Student Help Project was essentially my major focus. And I was Chairman and with the support of the amazing Rachel Weddington, who I'd like to talk about later, I moved forward and managed that project. And again, Mike could talk about who was involved in making the Virginia project work.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=990.0,1027.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: So I— actually Stan is the reason that I got got involved at all. I was in night school at Queens College in the fall of 1961, as I was transitioning away from Cornell into Queens College. I was taking night classes and also working during the day for a local newspaper in Coney Island. And I had decided that I was going to be a sports writer. I had worked on the newspaper as a sports writer at Cornell and I was working for this newspaper in Coney Island.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1027.0,1074.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And there's an interesting thing that doesn't have much to do with the Student Help Project, but that's worth sharing. There was a newspaper strike in New York City in the fall, I think it was the fall of 1961. And the newspaper— and all the seven, there were seven major daily newspapers in New York City at the time and all of them went on strike. But the newspaper I was working for, which was called the Brooklyn Daily, was under a— it was the printers who had gone on strike, but the Brooklyn Daily was printed in a commercial printing house and they had a different union contract and so they were not on strike.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1074.0,1121.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And so the Brooklyn Daily overnight went from a circulation of about 40,000 to a circulation of about 300,000 as a result of the strike. And I became the Sports Editor of the Brooklyn Daily. I was twenty, nineteen years old and I didn't know anything, but there I was. And I covered— I was the, I think the only working sports writer in New York who covered the opening of the New York Mets. But that's a, that's an— so I was going to be a sports writer.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1121.0,1160.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: But I was still thinking about, you know, I needed to be an activist because I was fully aware of what was going on in Civil Rights Movement in the South. And I knew I had to be involved in some way, just because of my parents. And I was walking in the hallway at Queens College one night going to a class and Stan who I had, didn't know, was standing outside of a classroom. And there was a meet, looked like a meeting going on inside the classroom.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1160.0,1197.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And I stopped and I asked Stan what was going on, and he said it was a meeting of CORE. NAACP by that time had transitioned to be a college chapter of CORE, the Congress of Racial Equality. And Stan said that's what was going on. And I think Stan was the head of that at the time.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1197.0,1215.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1215.0,1216.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And I said, \"Oh, I'd like to see what's going on.\" So I walked in and that was the beginning of my time. And after that, I gave up my idea of being a sports writer and sort of dove right in to what was going on with CORE.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1216.0,1234.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: When the Student Help Project formed, I was not part of that meeting that Stan describes with Dr. Weddington and Dr. Kornberg. But at some point, and I don't know that I remember exactly when, the Student Help Project was formed, I think it was in 1962. And Stan became the head of the Student Help Project and I became the head of CORE. And so that, that's sort of the chronology of how that happened for me.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1234.0,1271.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: But that, that doesn't fully answer the question.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1271.0,1274.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I forgot the question already.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1274.0,1276.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: The question was, how did the Virginia Project start? And that relates to a good friend of yours.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1276.0,1284.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, that's right. So at some point in late 1962, or maybe early in 1963, another student whose name then was Fred McCarty and he now goes by the name of Hanoch McCarty. But he was part of our activities. I can't remember exactly what his role was, but he had seen a piece on television about the students being shut out of public school in Prince Edward County.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1284.0,1324.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And he shared that information with Sid Simon, who was another faculty advisor of ours and what— his main goal was to make us, \"make our deeds match our creeds,\" is what he used to say. And I can't remember exactly how it evolved, but Sid came to Stan and myself. And Reverend Griffin from Prince Edward County had apparently contacted Rachel Weddington. And Stan may have better memory of this than I do, but—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1324.0,1368.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Let me jump in for a second. Fred McCarty, I believe it was Paul Friedman, were the two students—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1368.0,1376.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: —right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1376.0,1376.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nNew Speaker : Sid—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1376.0,1376.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I don't know Paul but I, I know Fred— Hanoch well.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1376.0,1382.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: They called a meeting at Queens to discuss the involvement of Queens College students in Prince Edward County and there was a huge turnout of hundreds. And that was essentially the beginning. And then with, with CORE, Mike and I were— got quickly involved in that. Never saw Paul again, and Fred quickly was focused on other things and that's— So therefore Mike and I, through CORE started moving forward with planning to, to spend part of the summer in Prince Edward County.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1382.0,1429.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, it's interesting cause I still, I'm in touch with Hanoch McCarty and we talked recently about this in fact. And the reason he did not stay involved with the Prince Edward County project was because his parents were diametrically opposed to it and he, for whatever reason, felt he couldn't cross them. And I think he carries regrets about that into this day because he actually was the driving force behind the idea at the beginning and, you know, for him it never happened.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1429.0,1476.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: But in any event, there were two key faculty advisors. Rachel was one and Sid Simon was the other. And I don't remember the meeting that Stan describes. His memory— he's younger than I am, so his memory is good. But we eventually recruited, I can't remember exactly if it was 20 or 25 students, who actually then did training at Sid's house on Long, at Long Beach on a Saturday. And at the end of that training, several of the students were deemed not, not sufficiently mature, I'll put it that way, to go to the South. And so 16 students were selected to go to the South out of that day-long training session at Sid's house.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1476.0,1547.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Let me follow up on that. Mike's words are correct and frightening, given that I was 20 years old. And having just re-read my diary of my experience in Prince Edward County, I was not that mature either. But nevertheless, it was one of many, many times collectively with our advisors, mentors, and specifically Sid and more so longterm Dr. Weddington. We made hard decisions, thoughtful decisions. For some reason there were five of us, I think, who were at that point in time, designated as, as leaders of the project. Mike and myself, Lenny Hausman, I'm not sure who else.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1547.0,1608.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Was Marjorie Sulkes?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1608.0,1610.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1610.0,1611.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I can't remember.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1611.0,1613.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I don't know.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1613.0,1613.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I know that you and Lenny and I, and I don't remember if there was anybody else.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1613.0,1618.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Okay. But we made those hard decisions and how to tell people, \"Thanks, but no thanks. You weren't selected.\" And that was a pattern of this group making challenging, difficult decisions for the course of the next number of months.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1618.0,1640.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, I think that's right. And I would add something and this just occurred to me. As Stan said, our two primary faculty advisors were Rachel Weddington and Sid Simon. Sid's primary goal, primary belief was that we had to make our deeds match our creeds. And whatever it took, that we couldn't just talk a good game, we had to put our, put our feet where our mouth was. I can't think of the metaphor at the moment.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1640.0,1685.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: But Rachel, on the other hand, was a stickler for being responsible and being mature. And the combination of the two of them, I think helped us a lot in the decision making that Stan refers to. Because on the one hand, we had Sid, who said, \"You can't just talk about this, you have to act on it,\" and then there was Rachel saying, \"But you have to be responsible and you have to be mature about it.\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1685.0,1717.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: And this is how to do it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1717.0,1719.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1719.0,1719.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Or, \"let's talk about how to do it and we'll figure it out together or you'll figure it out while I'm listening to you.\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1719.0,1725.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Right. So I think we were very, very fortunate to have those two faculty advisors who complimented them, complimented each other quite well.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1725.0,1740.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Rachel Weddington was one of the only Black professors on the campus that time, at that time, as I understand it, or one of the few and she was in the Education Department. Do you want to talk just a little bit more about her?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1740.0,1751.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yes, I do. Doc, as we called her, was a remarkable woman. You know, getting a doctorate in the, what? Fifties? A black woman. And she was, as unassuming as you could be, as straight as you could be. And she always snuck up on people because she had a will of steel un— you know, ethics and morals that were straight upfront. And yet she had tremendous background in psychology and was always able to help us as students work things through. And I can't tell you the numbers of times I sat in her office after doing something stupid, which happened often.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1751.0,1819.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: You weren't the only one.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1819.0,1822.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I think I, I win that battle. But, and she wouldn't tell me I was stupid. She would not tell me what to do, but in the course of that discussion, she would help me figure things out. And that was her style and that's what she did forever. I call her my, my godmother.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1822.0,1851.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: She was—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1851.0,1851.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Sid on other hand was straightforward, do it. And in fact, I— Sid was one of those mentors in high school. I had met him in high school when I was involved with the National Conference of Christians and Jews. And so I met him. I met the, the then president of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, SNCC, in high school. And so I've had those wonderful mentors, but number one was Rachel Weddington.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1851.0,1889.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, I would, I would certainly agree with Stan. I think Rachel was, was the rock for all of us. Sid on the other hand, as Stan said, was just go do it. And that, but that was important for us to hear. It was important for him to push us to, to do what we were talking about, to go beyond just words. And he has done that all of his life. He's now ninety-two or ninety-three and still going strong. And he has spent his entire life encouraging people to be activists, and being an activist himself on a number of issues. He's particularly, was particularly active in the whole area of whether grading in college was a good idea. He was opposed to A, B, C, D, F grading. So he's been, I think he's probably been more of an influence in my life than in Stan's.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1889.0,1967.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: But both he and Rachel were irreplaceable for us as faculty advisors in college. A couple of other people who I think deserve to be mentioned though, and both Sid and Rachel were in the Department of Education. Another person in the Department of Education who helped us a lot, doing a lot of the training for tutors, was Mickey Brody. She was a Field Coordinator, I think, in the Department of Education and so she played a significant role in training tutors for South Jamaica. And the other person who kept both of us in college was Helen Hendricks, who at that time was a secretary in the Dean of Students office. And as both Mark and Stan, and I will tell you, none of us would have graduated without her protecting us.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=1967.0,2036.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: So I'll just mention, we're hoping, hoping that we can interview Helen Hendricks and Sid Simon for this project as well. And unfortunately, Rachel Weddington passed away. Do you know what year she passed away? Not too long ago.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2036.0,2049.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Two years.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2049.0,2051.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: How—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2051.0,2051.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Two years.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2051.0,2053.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I thought it was longer than that, but somewhere in the \n[crosstalk]—.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2053.0,2056.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: —\n[crosstalk] but somewhere in the last five years, yeah. So going back to when you met in the corridor, did you two become friends after that?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2056.0,2067.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I think we did right away. I don't remember there being any lag time. I walked into that meeting and I think I probably hung on to Stan a little bit in the beginning because I was new to Queens College and new to CORE. But we became pretty close friends pretty quickly, I think. We used to play pool in Stan's basement. We took classes together. We struggled with some classes together. We became pretty close friends and we've been friends for what? Fifty-seven years or something. Like fifty-eight years.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2067.0,2110.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I'd second that and want to add something that is important. We have very different skill sets and we have been friends for these times partially because we never stepped on each other's feet. From day one pretty much, or day six maybe, Mike has been the spokesman for he and I, Mike is the lead author and my role then, and just generally has been visionary and—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2110.0,2165.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: —and planning.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2165.0,2167.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: And planning. And we both had our lanes and we were incredibly compatible.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2167.0,2176.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I think, I think that's right. And I didn't fully understand that until we were planning to go on vacation together. I think it was 1996 when we were going to Nova Scotia.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2176.0,2193.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yep.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2193.0,2193.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And I, I don't know that I've ever been a visionary and I've certainly never been a planner, that's for sure. And my wife, Jackie is a planner and Stan is a planner. And if, if it had been up to me, we'd have said, \"We're leaving for Nova Scotia tomorrow, and we'll figure out where we're staying when we get there.\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2193.0,2216.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Stan and Jackie were on the phone constantly leading up to the summer of 1996 planning the trip. The trip would never have come off without Jackie and Stan. And it's at that point that I realized, that I really became conscious of the fact that that Stan's planning and vision was what really helped to drive our work at Queens College.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2216.0,2248.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Another follow-up question for Stan before we continue. I want to continue into the Virginia Student Help Project, but I'm just curious about that transition from NAACP to CORE. It seems like that might be an important thing to at least touch on. Why, why did that happen?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2248.0,2265.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Interesting question. I'm not sure if I have a good answer. I think my best answer is, we young whippersnappers saw the NAACP as an old and stodgy organization and CORE as the more active and effective organization, and we made that transition. I'm not sure if that really made any sense, but that's what we did.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2265.0,2300.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: I guess, at this time CORE would have been doing Freedom Rides that were widely seen on the news.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2300.0,2308.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2308.0,2309.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. And there were only, if I recall correctly, there were only for northern students, there were really only two organizations, NAACP and CORE. SNCC was Southern, predominantly Black students. Dr. King's organization, the SCLC (Southern Christian Leadership Council), were minister, primarily minister activists in the South. So I don't think— I absolutely agree with Stan that the NAACP seemed stodgy and CORE seemed much more activist, but I also think there weren't any other alternatives, that I can recall, for northern students.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2309.0,2352.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2352.0,2355.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Okay. So we have a sort of a set of questions about Virginia specifically, and it seems like we've been talking a little bit more about that. Should we go through that first? And then we can come back to Jamaica?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2355.0,2368.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2368.0,2368.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Sure.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2368.0,2368.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: So I guess one of the questions we had was just, and you already touched on this, were there any other campus activities that you participated in before you went to Virginia that you'd like to talk about, in the run-up to going to Virginia?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2368.0,2382.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Well, I let me mention a couple quickly. There, there was, I think the— well no, maybe it wasn't before. The World's Fair Boycott. Was that before or after, Mike?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2382.0,2395.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: That was after. That was 1964.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2395.0,2397.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Four, sure it was. Okay \n[crosstalk]—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2397.0,2397.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: —\n[crosstalk] still talk about it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2397.0,2405.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Mike, you were in charge at that point?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2405.0,2409.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, I think I was.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2409.0,2411.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2411.0,2412.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. I, I was not involved in any other activities other than civil rights activities at Queens College. What Stan refers to is the march on the Worlds Fair in 1964 because we were upset that the city was spending money on the World's Fair and not on affordable housing and other issues in the city. And so we organized, I think with Stan, myself, Ronny Pollack, who was then the student body president,—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2412.0,2454.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: —Carolyn.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2454.0,2456.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Carolyn Hubbard? Yeah, who was the only Black student who went with us to Prince Edward County. And there may have been others, but anyway, we organized a march on the World's Fair to protest the spending of city money on the World's Fair. And we— at that time, one of the, one of the activities that was gaining some prominence were stall-in's and so we stalled-in on the Van Wyck Expressway, marching to the World's Fair. We did pretty good job of screwing up traffic on the Van Wyck at that point.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2456.0,2498.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Appreciated by all.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2498.0,2500.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Huh?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2500.0,2500.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Appreciated by all.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2500.0,2505.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, right \n[laughter]. That was— then there was Freedom Week. Can't remember who organized that, but we were involved in that as well. But we were involved in whatever the civil rights activities were on campus, but I wasn't involved in anything else.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2505.0,2524.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: One little vignette, I think I was still president, whether it was an NAACP or CORE. We invited Malcolm X to campus.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2524.0,2536.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: That was before my time.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2536.0,2538.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: That was before your time. And I guess I had written— and, and, and the Dean of, the Dean of Student Activities, Dean Kreutzer, called me into his office. And I had written some kind of letter, maybe to him or whatever, and he sat there for twenty minutes— he was an English professor. And he corrected every misspelling, every missed period or phrasing, or, and it was an interesting thing that would not, I don't think, happen today anymore. But it was, it was part of the in loco parentis, students really don't matter and shut up and behave. That was part, not only of Queens College, but of most colleges at that point in time.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2538.0,2597.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And by the way, it's still the, in many cases, the, the same today. I've been an adjunct faculty member at George Washington University for about fifteen or sixteen years. And more than once, I have heard professors say with regard to students who were raising some issues, \"Oh well they're only students. Don't pay any attention to them.\" And that's 2016, 17, 18, et cetera. So that's still, still an issue on a lot of college campuses.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2597.0,2635.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Did Malcolm X come then, or I know there was— I thought I had heard that there was a time when he was sort of banned from coming to campus.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2635.0,2642.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: That was then.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2642.0,2643.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Oh, so they basically nixed it then?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2643.0,2645.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Oh, they did.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2645.0,2646.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Okay. And there were protests about his getting canceled.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2646.0,2652.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yes. Yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2652.0,2653.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: I think some of that is documented just in the student newspaper, so I should dig that up.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2653.0,2657.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2657.0,2658.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And Mark, Mark Levy would know a lot about that too, I believe.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2658.0,2662.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Do you remember what year that was? What year would you think?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2662.0,2668.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: '62, '63.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2668.0,2671.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: It was before '63 'cause I would have been very conscious of it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2671.0,2674.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2674.0,2675.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: So it had to be probably early '62, maybe.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2675.0,2679.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Okay.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2679.0,2681.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: So going back to the Virginia Project, how did— do you know how the, you all and your faculty advisors like Sid and Rachel got, how do you get connected to the folks in Virginia to kind of establish that you were coming?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2681.0,2699.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: My recollection is that Reverend Griffin and Rachel connected. I'm not— Stan may remember how that happened. But the connection was between Reverend Griffin, who was the pastor of the First Baptist Church in Farmville, the county seat, and the leader of the Black community essentially. He, he and Rachel somehow connected. Maybe Rachel connected with him after Hanoch, Paul Friedman raised the issue.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2699.0,2740.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: There was also a meeting in Richmond, Virginia that I attended. Might've been with Rachel, not sure who else.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2740.0,2752.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I didn't go to that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2752.0,2754.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: No you didn't. But we met with an NAACP lawyer. And I don't know if Reverend Griffin was there, but that also was part of the planning for our trip down.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2754.0,2771.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: I thought \n[crosstalk]. Go ahead.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2771.0,2773.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Well, I was going to say the other thing that stands out to me about the planning for Prince Edward County was the fundraising concert that we did that featured Dick Gregory, who was then a, before his real activist days when he was really a very prominent stand-up comedian. And we had a lot of— thanks to one of the student's parents, we had a lot of prominent people at his fundraising concert, which was at Carnegie Hall.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2773.0,2809.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Some of the great names in jazz were there.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2809.0,2812.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Quincy Jones. Quincy Jones was there. I can't remember who else. The young woman who sang the song, \"It's My Party And I'll Cry If I Want To.\" It was a big hit in 1963 and I can't remember her name. What I remember was that she opened the concert and she was lip-syncing, and the lip-syncing got screwed up and there she was on stage lip-syncing without sound. But that fundraising concert raised what? Seven or eight, $9,000? Filled Carnegie Hall.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2812.0,2857.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Did not fill Carnegie Hall.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2857.0,2861.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I thought it did. I prefer to remember that it filled Carnegie Hall—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2861.0,2865.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: —I'm sure you do. Not even close \n[laughter]. But it gave us all the money we needed for the trip. Also, Reverend Griffin, for example, his role, he set up everything for us in Prince Edward County. So we had— he had contracted with local Black families for us to live in their homes, eat in their homes, and we paid them whatever was needed.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2865.0,2899.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: We also raised enough money to buy a whole boatload of books to take with us.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2899.0,2904.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Right. So there were— it was through Reverend Griffin there, with the support of Rachel, with what we had. We had a coordinating committee to get the job done. And in looking back at what we did, I really do marvel at, in spite of our immaturity and youth and lack of experience, we pulled off something pretty amazing in terms of just the logistics of planning this, getting all of us down there. Spending six, eight weeks, whatever it was, and getting back out and getting out alive. It really blows my mind for, for the most part that these twenty, twenty-one year olds.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2904.0,2956.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: So one of the questions that you had was just, you know, what motivated you to, to give up your summer and to do this?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2956.0,2966.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: We were going to go and help these Black kids who had school ripped from them for four years. So, you know, we were coming in on our white horses and we were gonna do a great thing. As I look back on the experience, it was an absolutely remarkable time and through serendipity, the things that were going on were the— SNCC was organizing hundreds of kids to protest segregation. Halfway through we discovered, well, when we got there, we saw Vanden Heuvel and knew that Bobby Kennedy was supporting getting those schools in September.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=2966.0,3029.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Maybe three or four weeks in, heard that schools were going to open. And so that dynamic with the community, with the kids was phenomenal. So it was— and then ending our teaching and then we, and also the kids, heading down to Washington D.C.for the March on Washington. That timing was just stupendous and again, serendipity. But it was just a remarkable, remarkable time which made it much more meaningful than we deserved, I think, and made it a remarkable experience for us.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3029.0,3069.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. I would add some, some stuff. One of the reasons that we survived was because Rachel was with us. Sid did not go with us for the summer for personal reasons. But Rachel did, and she was the person who made sure that we acted in a way that would keep us safe. For example, in the middle of the summer, SNCC came to Farmville and organized Black teenagers, organized boycotts of the stores in Farmville and had student— organized students to march.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3069.0,3124.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And a number of us wanted desperately to be part of that. And Rachel and Reverend Griffin, but mostly Rachel from our perspective, made sure that we didn't because SNCC and Reverend Griffin wanted this to be, wanted the marches, the boycotts to be locally run and not to have them \"contaminated\" by \"outside agitators.\" And so we were kept on a pretty short leash and it was Rachel Weddington who made sure that we stayed on that leash. You know we were, like Stan said I was 21, there were some students among us who were as young as 19 and I think we'd have jumped at the chance to be part of the protests. And we were kept away from them largely because of Rachel and she probably saved our lives.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3124.0,3189.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I agree with, with some clarification. Rachel never said, \"You can't do that.\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3189.0,3197.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3197.0,3197.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Or, \"You won't do that.\" She would say, \"Should you be doing that?\" And, \"Let's have a discussion about that,\" and allowed us to figure that out for ourselves. And that was— we had group meetings, I don't know, at least once a week, sometimes more often where those kinds of issues came up and certainly Rachel was a precipitating factor. And then she'd sit back and let us figure it out and work it out and come to an agreement and so on. And it was a pretty amazing performance in retrospect.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3197.0,3239.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I think that's right. Although I actually remember her being a bit more directive than Stan does. I remember her at times saying, \"No, this is—\" not necessarily about that issue, but that other issues, \"No, this is stupid and you are being irresponsible.\" Stan and I had a political science class together at one point.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3239.0,3268.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: You had to bring it up.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3268.0,3268.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Well, I won't bring up all the details, but the bottom line is both of us acted irresponsibly and she didn't mince any words about telling us that we had been immature and irresponsible and we needed to grow up. So I remember her being a bit more directive, although generally I think Stan's recollection is correct.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3268.0,3296.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: So I thought it might be worth just touching on a little bit of the timeline for people who aren't familiar with this history. I was looking up before this interview that, you know, you said in your own article that you weren't necessarily so aware of the history in Prince Edward County before you got there. But, you know, dating back to 1951, there was a student named Barbara Johns who led a student strike in her school there. You know, at that time the demand, I don't think was for integration, but for more funding and for a new school for the Black students in the community. And then after that the lawyers who were organizing the Brown, Brown v. Board of Education case approached them and they became plaintiffs, one of the four groups that were plaintiffs in that case that ended school segregation in the United States.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3296.0,3351.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: But after that in the state of Virginia, there was a white supremacist, I guess, call for massive resistance to integration efforts, which meant that despite what the legal ruling was, the schools didn't actively start to integrate. And so in 1959, finally, a judge ordered, started to order, you know, that these schools had to start to integrate. And rather than do that, in Prince Edward County, they closed in 1959, that is when they closed the public schools. They opened a school for white children that was a private school and kind of figured out ways to ensure that all the white children in the community had access to that school. And that's when the Black children in the community got locked out and they didn't get back to school— was it the fall after you left in, or was it not until the year later? You were there, you went to Virginia in 1963.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3351.0,3420.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. Stan had mentioned a few minutes ago about Bobby Kennedy. I think we were unaware, I speak for myself, unaware of the school strike in 1951 until we actually got there. But it did— you're correct that, thanks to the influence of Thurgood Marshall and Oliver Hill, who was a Black, Black attorney in Richmond, they joined the Brown v. Board of Education case before the Supreme Court and eventually they were one of the four. Topeka, Kansas, Clarendon County, South Carolina, Newcastle County, Delaware, and Prince Edward County, Virginia, that were part of the Brown decision. Then between '54 and '59, there was a lot of violent resistance to desegregating schools. Little Rock comes to mind as perhaps the most prominent one, but far from the only one. There was Clinton, Tennessee, and a number of other places that violently resisted desegregation of the schools.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3420.0,3499.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: In Prince Edward County, they didn't, there wasn't violent resistance. There was this policy of massive resistance. And Prince Edward County was not the only county in Virginia that decided to close the schools, but they were the only ones that, that actually closed them and kept them closed. The others— there are several others, and I think they eventually reopened, but Prince Edward County closed them in 1959, set up a private academy for white students. Offered to set up private schools, a private school for Black students that was resisted by Reverend Griffin because it would only perpetuate segregation. Some of the Black students had family outside of the county, and so they sent their kids there. One of Reverend Griffin's sons actually wound up in, in school in Boston, I think. The American Friends Service Committee played a significant role in finding places for some of the students who had the wherewithal to leave the county.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3499.0,3576.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: But in total, I think about 1,700 Black students were shut out of school for four years. What happened prior to the summer of '63, I think, Bobby Kennedy had heard about this I'm not sure exactly how, but he was quite upset by it and he worked with the Ford Foundation. Eventually the Ford Foundation, I think itwas the Ford Foundation, provided the money to reopen the schools in the fall of 1963, pressured by Bobby Kennedy to do that. And there was a, a member of the Department of Justice under Kennedy named William vanden Heuvel.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3576.0,3630.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3630.0,3630.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Daughter is now, has been the editor of The Nation for many years. And he was instrumental in, in helping to open the schools. And like Stan said, we found out about that about halfway through our time down there. And our last act in Prince Edward County was actually going into the schools and cleaning them up and making them ready for students to go into, to go to school in the fall.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3630.0,3660.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: What I remember— this was the Black high school, and what I remember most vividly was going into that school and things were just scattered all over and in there and rodents and whatever. And I went to, into one of the classrooms and there was a calendar open to the date in June 1959 that the schools had closed. The last day anybody had been there and that calendar had not been touched for four years. It was still open to that day in June of 1959, when it was the last day anybody had been in that school.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3660.0,3701.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: And so two of our Queens College tutors stayed on and worked in that first year at the school set up by the Ford Foundation. The following year, the public school began.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3701.0,3718.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, I think there was a Supreme Court decision.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3718.0,3722.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3722.0,3722.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Maybe sometime in the fall of '63 or the spring of '64. And like Stan says, the school, public schools opened in '64. If I recall correctly, Stan, there was one white student—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3722.0,3737.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/184","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: —yes—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3737.0,3737.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/185","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: —in the school that opened in the fall of '63, the Ford Foundation school.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3737.0,3745.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/186","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: It's the Dean's son. There was one incredible white guy, the dean in the Longwood College, who sided with right all the time. At one point, he invited several Black folks into his church and they got tossed and arrested. But yeah, his son attended the new Black school and vied with Skip Griffin for quarterback of the football team.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3745.0,3782.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/187","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Right. I think his last name was Moss.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3782.0,3784.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/188","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yes, Dean Moss. Right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3784.0,3789.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/189","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: So going back to your experience, how did, how did your parents feel about you traveling to Prince Edward County and living with Black families there?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3789.0,3800.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/190","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: My parents \n[crosstalk]— go ahead.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3800.0,3801.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Go, go ahead.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3801.0,3801.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: My parents were fine with it. In fact, they offered to call parents of other students if those parents were being resistant. My mother— my father was a little iffy, but my mother was all for it, you know. You believe in civil rights, you gotta do this.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3801.0,3827.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I had a little different response. My parents told me I was crazy and shouldn't go and wouldn't support it and that I get myself killed. And so it was a total rejection of my values and what I did. And that's just the way things were.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3827.0,3858.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Were you able to maintain kind of your relationships with them despite these differences?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3858.0,3865.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Good question. Kind of a funny question. As I said, they hated the whole idea. It embarrassed the hell out of them that I was doing that, until all of the media started reporting on, on us, and particularly the Long Island Press, which you know is the paper for that, for Queens and Nassau. And we kept showing up in the Long Island Press with these glowing editorials, pictures, articles. All of a sudden my parents were proud. Not to me, but when they dealt with their friends.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3865.0,3909.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And I had the opposite experience. My mother wanted everybody in the world to know that her son was going to the South in, in the summer of '63. My father, he was concerned about how the customers in his hardware store would feel about it. So he was torn between his principles and his need to earn a living. And so he was a little, I mean, he was fine, but a little less enthusiastic than my mother.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3909.0,3942.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: So for yourselves, what were your, you know, assumptions, fears/anxieties, hopes, or expectations regarding this experience?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3942.0,3952.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I, I think I was too young and immature to really have any clear thoughts, feelings, understandings. It was more, this needs to be done, I can do this, let's do it and we'll figure it out how. The fact that it was going to be dangerous, possibly. The fact that, you know, there, there were all kinds of social and personal issues that could have been raised, never gave it any thought. Just put my foot on the gas and said, \"Let's go.\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3952.0,3994.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, I think that was basically right. I don't think we were mature enough. I don't know about Stan, I was scared, but that wouldn't have stopped me from going. But I think it's important, and Stan sort of alluded to this earlier, I had this sense that we were the white saviors, white knights on white horses coming in to save these poor Black people. And what we learned, I think I speak for both of us and probably for a lot of other people in the group, is that A) people in Prince Edward County could pretty much take care of themselves. The leadership of Reverend Griffin and then Reverend Douglas, who was the pastor, young pastor of the AME (African Methodist Episcopal) Church, were powerful leaders. We were there to be helpful.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=3994.0,4064.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: But, I think it was— I think the best thing I can say about it, it was an important and invaluable lesson in humility. And it has helped inform my entire approach to advocacy in my entire professional life. It was a very, very clear lesson in humility. That we were not the saviors, we were helpers and that was it. What would you add to that, Stan?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4064.0,4107.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/201","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I would certainly agree. There is no doubt in my mind, retrospectively, that we got a whole lot more out of it than they did.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4107.0,4123.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/202","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Absolutely.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4123.0,4124.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/203","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Now I say that, however— Annie, you were there with us in 2009 when we went back. I was shocked by how positive people talked about that experience. And again, I think the time was very, very important in making it such a positive experience, for them as well as for us. But the things I, I think I can speak for both of us, that Mike and I learned helping lead that, that, that process and planning and carrying that out, they were lessons that have kept us doing good stuff for the next fifty years, without question.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4124.0,4173.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/204","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. Life changing, life changing experience—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4173.0,4176.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/205","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: —Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4176.0,4178.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/206","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yes, but also skills that I learned through this process that I was able to use again and again and again, in my next fifty years of advocacy.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4178.0,4195.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/207","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Yeah, I'd love to hear— that was sort of one of the questions that we had on the list to touch on later, but I'd love to hear just more about what those skills were that you think you took with you.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4195.0,4206.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/208","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Well, certainly pulling this sucker off was really hard. You know, selecting folks. And again, that was a very painful day that's burned in my head, my head in, in Long Beach. Telling folks— first of all, arguing for a couple hours as to who should go and who shouldn't, and then telling those folks. Training people to go to educate, to be educators in Prince Edward County over the course of a couple months. Mike and company, particularly managing and running the Carnegie Hall concert that funded this process.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4206.0,4255.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/209","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: All of the issues we had to deal with individually, but more so collectively, in terms of group process to, to survive, to succeed in Prince Edward County, especially when— and interestingly, our group and then we had all of the individuals from the United Federation of Teachers. And I said, I use my words very carefully, they were— well first of all, it was unfair 'cause they, they were in for a week or two at a time so they were coming and going and there was no group process. But we were there, we were holding down the fort, holding down each school for the, for the entire time. And we worked together and had regular meetings and discussions on how to manage and stay safe and considering were we going to go and do a march and so on, so forth.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4255.0,4325.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/210","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: As I said, I re-read my log the other day and it seemed every other page I said, \"I want to go march! I want to go march!\" And somehow, the group and Rachel kept me from doing that, which was totally appropriate. So again, lots and lots and lots of planning skills, logistics, organization, and looking beyond oneself for the good of the group and the good of everyone there. This was a serious time. These kids were being thrown in jail when they were marching. Their parents were being threatened with losing their jobs. This is serious, serious stuff and we kids were in the middle of it and had to try to function and we did pretty damn well.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4325.0,4379.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/211","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, I would say the biggest thing I learned in Prince Edward County was humility. I think the skills that Stan refers to, the leadership skills, planning, et cetera, came not only from Prince Edward County, but from the entire Student Help Project, both Jamaica and Virginia.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4379.0,4403.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/212","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: But the biggest thing I learned from Prince Edward County project was humility. That this was everybody's fight, but we were soldiers in that fight and nothing more than that. That there was strong and effective leadership throughout the Civil Rights Movement and that we were foot soldiers. And that was an important lesson and it's a lesson in addition to whatever planning, leadership skills I may have learned. It was that lesson, that we were just foot soldiers, which has stuck with me throughout everything that I've done since.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4403.0,4463.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/213","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: As you mentioned, there was, SNCC was there and, and NAACP and they were organizing. It wasn't just the schools, right? I mean the movie theater, the beach, bathrooms. Everything was very segregated. To talk about what it was like, I guess, just to, what was your sort of— I know in the article that you wrote, you talked about kind of having a daily routine and how, you know, you were only there for six weeks, but it sounds like it was such an intense period that, like you said, almost overnight, it felt like you were integrated into this community. So just, what was that like for you both?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4463.0,4503.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/214","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: For me, and I write about this, I think I wrote about it in the article that you have, but I also wrote about it in my book. As a result— when we were in Prince Edward County, the only place I felt safe was in the Black community and for the most part, and this interesting lesson in stereotyping, everybody there who was white was the enemy. And by the time I got back to New York after the August 28th March on Washington, which we attended on our way back from Prince Edward County, I viewed most white people, other than my parents, as the enemy.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4503.0,4562.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/215","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I had become so enmeshed in, in the Black community in Prince Edward County that I felt safer in, among Black people than I did among white people and I suspected all white people of being racist. It took me a long time after that to kind of get past that. And there's still remnants of that today, about how I approach white people who I don't know when it comes to issues of race. I forgot what the question was. Where was I going with this?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4562.0,4616.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/216","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Just sort of the everyday experience and what you took away from it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4616.0,4619.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/217","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: That was it. And I remember the Dairy Queen experience. Do you remember that, Stan?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4619.0,4625.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/218","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Of course.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4625.0,4626.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/219","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. So, and this sort of symbolized, I think, what I was just talking about. We had been told to not go out at night, period. And when we went out at any time, to go out in groups, not to be alone. So we were feeling pretty safe about the second or third week there. We hadn't had any serious problems. And so one night, Dr. Weddington, Reverend Douglas, and I guess five or six of the students, went out to a Dairy Queen on the outskirts of Farmville. And we were all ordering ice cream and there were two cars that pulled up after we did, full of young white teenage guys, I guess. And before we knew it, and I don't remember all the details now, but before we knew it, we were surrounded by these white, young white guys.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4626.0,4700.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/220","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And I, I remember being pretty, pretty scared. And we didn't exactly know what to do. And Reverend Douglas got kicked by one of them. But it was Rachel who saved us. She just decided she's not standing for this and she started walking right through the circle of white guys, and we followed her right through. Got into our cars and went back to Reverend Douglas's house and called the police. Police station was about a block from Reverend Douglas's house. It took them an hour to get there. And before they came in, they buzzed the house a number of times. And then several cops walked up the steps to Reverend Douglas house, heard what we had to say and left with a warning that we should be careful, or words to that effect. That's when it hit me that this was a different place.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4700.0,4769.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/221","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Let me work on a different approach. Two incidents I can follow up with. One, and I don't recall where it happened, but I recall we were walking along and we saw a figure and we were, for some reason, we were concerned. And, uh, all of a sudden, one of us said, \"Oh, thank goodness. It's a white— it's, it's a, it's a Black person.\" We were safe. And that's to reinforce what Mike said before.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4769.0,4799.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/222","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: The other was, I guess we were at maybe a meeting or getting together at someone's house. I was driving back home at night alone through the center of town and a cop car pulled behind me, and I did not see the cops as my friend. And it was just an interesting experience and nothing, there's nothing going on, but it was just, reinforced what Mike said that it was in my head that the authorities were not our friends and could not be counted on.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4799.0,4835.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/223","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Exactly.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4835.0,4837.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/224","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: On the other hand— go ahead.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4837.0,4838.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/225","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: No, go ahead. Finish.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4838.0,4839.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/226","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: On the other, on the other hand, the support we got from the Black community was just remarkable. Our host homes were phenomenal. Lenny Hausman and I were with these two, I don't know, they're eighty, eighty-five year-old ladies. Just wonderful human beings, just smart and had experienced it all and had survived it all and had done well.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4839.0,4878.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/227","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: You just broke up Stan.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4878.0,4878.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/228","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: It was just an amazing experience. And again, they were dealing with this through the possibility— their kids were getting arrested and they were worried. They had, could possibly lose their jobs and yet there was never a hint of anyone not supporting us, getting rid of us, whatever. It was just a, a loving community that accepted these white kids.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4878.0,4923.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/229","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Oh, did we lose? We lost—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4923.0,4926.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/230","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: —Yeah, he may have.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4926.0,4931.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/231","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Should we give a minute, a minute?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4931.0,4934.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/232","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Hey, Mike. Welcome back.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4934.0,4936.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/233","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Somehow I got cut off or something.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4936.0,4939.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/234","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Yeah, I don't know what happened. Stan decided to use this opportunity to take a quick break.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4939.0,4946.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/235","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Okay. I forgot where we were.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4946.0,4948.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/236","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: I think we were kind of at the end, sort of coming to the next question. So, I was going to actually just ask about the fact that you all went to church with the folks in the community and what that was like.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4948.0,4962.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/237","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. Well there's a— you know, I'm a, you know— welcome back. You know, most, most of us, I think were good old Jewish folk from New York, Jewish kids from New York. And I don't think I had ever been in a church in my life, I was 21 years old. And so going to church was a new experience for me, but it was an uplifting experience, and there's a story that goes with that as well. And I whatever I misremember, Stan can, can fill in.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=4962.0,5005.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/238","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: During the marches, the SNCC marches in Farmville, a number of the teenagers had been arrested one afternoon. And Reverend Griffin was concerned that if they stayed in jail overnight, they'd be in trouble. And so he had us make sure that all the Black parents came to his church at about seven o'clock that night, I think. And I think they were told that it was for a meeting to do something or other, but they were not told the exact reason. And the church was filled and we were there. And Reverend Griffin started talking about whatever it was that they were supposed to be talking about at the meeting.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5005.0,5069.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/239","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And he moved very smoothly on to a typical Baptist fire and brimstone kind of speech and he got everybody kind of really emotionally up. And at some point when he reached the apex of the emotional pitch and talking about freedom and safety and what have you, he came down off the pulpit and marched up the aisle to the door and we followed him and everybody else in the church followed him, and we marched to the courthouse. And that night, or shortly thereafter, the kids were released.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5069.0,5116.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/240","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And that was my first in-person experience of the power of the church in the Civil Rights Movement. I've come since having been married to a Baptist, African-American Baptist woman and now to a white woman who's a born-again Christian, I've come to have a much closer relationship with the church. But at that point, it was all new to me and it was an amazing and uplifting experience.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5116.0,5151.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/241","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: I'm just \n[crosstalk]—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5151.0,5151.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/242","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I agree—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5151.0,5151.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/243","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: —Go ahead.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5151.0,5155.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/244","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: One quick caveat, we had said, we're not going to be marching. Reverend Griffin had said he doesn't want us marching and there we were \n[laughter].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5155.0,5164.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/245","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Right, right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5164.0,5165.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/246","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: And so I would say, \"What's going well, what do you do now?\" And we marched happily.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5165.0,5173.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/247","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Right. I think we knew instinctively that we were supposed to do that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5173.0,5177.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/248","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5177.0,5180.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/249","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Stan, what is your religious background?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5180.0,5184.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/250","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Similar, but the difference is I have flunked out of all religions. I was a bad Jew, a bad Christian. So, I am not good with organizations. Particularly hierarchical organizations.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5184.0,5209.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/251","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: And just going back, you had mentioned, you know, many of the, you know, working class families attending Queens College at this time were largely white, but, you know, there was a large Jewish population and a large population who maybe, whose parents were immigrants. Were either of your— what was the story in your families? Were either of your parents or grandparents immigrants?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5209.0,5229.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/252","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Grandparents, immigrants. Arrived about 1912 from Russia.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5229.0,5237.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/253","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: My mother's parents were immigrants and arrived probably about the same time, also from Russia. My father was an immigrant from Poland. He came here 1920, and I think he was about 13 when he came here from Poland.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5237.0,5261.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/254","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Are there any other— oh, I wanted to ask you about just the teaching, what the teaching was like? You know, I think one of your questions was, you know, did you feel prepared to take on the education aspects? What was it actually like?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5261.0,5275.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/255","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I think some of us had very different experiences. For me, teaching was hard and Lenny Hausman, who was my roommate for that six weeks, we spent hours and hours every night, sometimes 'til two in the morning, just preparing lessons for the next day. So it was challenging. I worked with the high school kids for the most part, and it was hard getting them to respond for just, I don't know, me being white at first, being out of school for all that time. But to get them to, to say words, to get in some kind of discussion was very, very difficult. And yet, again, I still have great relationships with most of those high school students. I had my class.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5275.0,5331.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/256","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: On the other hand, I switched with Marjorie Sulkes. She took my class and I took her second, first, second, third graders, about 30 of them. I had never worked with that population before, I had always worked with secondary. And it was the most exhausting, fun experience I've ever had. We would do counting and math kind of stuff, so we'd count people and count rows and stand up and sit there. It was more fun, but I needed a long nap afterwards.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5331.0,5366.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/257","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. I, I had the, not the fun experience that Stan describes with second graders, but I also had high school students and I had the same difficulties that Stan did. I felt significantly underprepared to do what I was doing. Part of it was, I was not much older than my students. And at the time, I had a buzz cut and I had a, I looked like I was their age, not older and that was problematic. We had a pretty good relationship, but I'm not sure what I taught them.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5366.0,5426.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/258","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Oh, something went wrong, but now it's back. I think our internet was getting a little shaky for a minute there.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5426.0,5432.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/259","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Okay.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5432.0,5432.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/260","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: The last thing I heard was you said you had a good relationship, but you weren't sure quite what you taught them. Uh oh.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5432.0,5445.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/261","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Can you hear me?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5445.0,5446.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/262","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Yeah, I can hear Stan just fine, but I can't hear Mike. But he's not muted, so I'm not sure why that's happening.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5446.0,5456.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/263","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Mike, are you there?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5456.0,5456.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/264","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Oh, now he is muted. I'm going to unmute him.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5456.0,5463.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/265","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Michael?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5463.0,5470.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/266","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Okay. Say hi to us now, Mike. See what happens.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5470.0,5474.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/267","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: No.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5474.0,5478.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/268","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Okay, shoot. Do you want to try going out, Mike, and then calling back in? Rejoining the link? Sometimes that magically fixes things.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5478.0,5488.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/269","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yes. Still there.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5488.0,5494.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/270","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Can you hear me now?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5494.0,5496.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/271","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5496.0,5496.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/272","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5496.0,5498.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/273","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: There you go. Okay.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5498.0,5499.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/274","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Stop touching things!\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5499.0,5502.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/275","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: It's back!\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5502.0,5504.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/276","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I have no idea what happened. But, I tried to be— so I didn't, I didn't look older, I was not much older than them and I didn't look any older than them. And I tried to be a little creative. I used the song, \"Blowing in the Wind,\" as a tool for teaching and that may have worked some. But the answer to the question is I felt grossly underprepared to do what we, what we did. That doesn't mean I don't think we had an impact. Clearly we did, but we were not, I was not prepared.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5504.0,5557.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/277","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Were both of you education majors at this point and plan to go into education or become teachers?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5557.0,5563.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/278","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: We planned to, but had not had an education course yet.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5563.0,5566.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/279","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5566.0,5566.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/280","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: We were going into our sophomore year, I mean our junior year when that started, so.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5566.0,5572.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/281","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, the first ED course we took was Sid Simon's Education I course, and I think that was in the fall of '63.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5572.0,5580.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/282","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Right, when we got back.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5580.0,5583.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/283","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I think we had an impact in, you know, in, in a variety of ways, but I'm not sure, at least for me, I'm not sure that I taught my students much in terms of academics.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5583.0,5600.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/284","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: So on the positive side, the fact that they started school right after we left, they had six weeks of school.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5600.0,5613.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/285","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5613.0,5613.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/286","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Of getting up, of coming to class, of different subjects. I have to believe that was a very, very, very helpful transition. Again, serendipitous, but just, just being there turned out to be very, very important.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5613.0,5631.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/287","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I think that, I think that's absolutely correct. And, and I should add that even though I don't think I taught my students much, they came every day and they were anxious to be there, and that was inspiring to me. So the fact that I don't think I taught them much, didn't diminish their enthusiasm for being back in school.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5631.0,5657.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/288","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah, that's a really good point. It was a hell, hellacious hot summer in Virginia, even for Virginia. And these kids came out by the hundreds every frigging day to go to school. Good thing.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5657.0,5674.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/289","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, absolutely.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5674.0,5676.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/290","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: What other impacts do you think you had then, aside from the academics? You mentioned that you felt you did have an impact.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5676.0,5685.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/291","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Well, I think one, they came back, they were anxious to be back in school and so we provided the vehicle for them to do that. I think for some of my students, they were pretty surprised to see a white guy who cared about what was happening. And so I think that was important. I'm not sure— what, what would you say, Stan?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5685.0,5716.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/292","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I would certainly agree with that. Especially going in, again, going into the next year of school, where there were a lot of white teachers. So again, lots of positives. And I know I started worrying much less about subject matter if I was teaching history. More talking, working with the kids about how to learn, how to study, how to think, how to process information. So I think as I went along, I figured out what was important and did some good stuff.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5716.0,5755.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/293","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. I think, I think that's right. Part of that learning came from Sid Simon and Rachel Weddington. And it has influenced me. I did not have a career in teaching as Stan did. I've been an adjunct at GW for the last fifteen or sixteen years. But it taught me the importance of critical thinking of— how do I want to say this?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5755.0,5792.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/294","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: The classes that I've taught at GW are all about racial justice, institutional racism. And what I learned from Prince Edward County and what I learned from Sid Simon and Rachel Weddington, I think has had a huge impact on my ability to be successful as a teacher at the college level over the last fifteen or sixteen years. It has, it has helped me to understand the importance of critical thinking, the importance of students learning history, but not, not the kind of history that we typically learn in high school, but the more three-dimensional, complete, accurate history of, of this country. And I, I feel the impact of that. Um, almost every day I've been in class.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5792.0,5865.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/295","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I can't hear—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5865.0,5866.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/296","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: I was muted \n[laughter]. Are there any other before— we're kind of, I'm thinking that maybe for today, we could talk a little bit more about Prince Edward and the March on Washington and then we have a set of questions about Jamaica and general questions, and maybe we could do a second interview to cover that?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5866.0,5888.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/297","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Jamaica will be much shorter.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5888.0,5890.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/298","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Okay. Or we could keep going?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5890.0,5892.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/299","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Because I think our memories about Jamaica are very limited \n[laughter].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5892.0,5896.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/300","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: \n[unclear] to keep going then. So I guess I just wanted to ask before— I want to ask you about the March on Washington. But before we get to that, just were there other stories or anecdotes, strong memories from that summer that you'd like to share from your six weeks there?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5896.0,5912.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/301","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: One that comes to mind was we had taken on Saturday, a group of us had decided to go to Richmond, which was about an hour away and just wander around Richmond and see what it was like. And we did that. And I think we, we were feeling pretty good, a little anxious 'cause we had New York license plates on our cars, but I don't think we had any incidents in Richmond.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5912.0,5943.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/302","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: But on the way back, one of the young women who was among us, had to go to the bathroom. So we stopped at a gas station and she went— this was Jeannie. So she went around to the back and came right back, before she couldn't possibly have done what she had to do. And so one of us said to her, \"What happened?\" She said, \"Well, there was a 'whites only'' sign on the bathroom and we had decided we weren't gonna use 'whites only' facilities.\" And so she got back in the car and we made it back to Farmville. But that was an important lesson in being true to our principles.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5943.0,5992.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/303","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Wasn't, I wasn't there, but wasn't there a Chinese restaurant in that trip?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5992.0,5998.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/304","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I can't remember that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5998.0,5999.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/305","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: That denied, denied service 'cause you had Carolyn? Okay.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=5999.0,6006.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/306","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I, I don't remember that. I've been denied service several times when I was married to Tempe, but I don't remember that. But it might well have happened, it might well have happened. But the one that stood out to me was that Jeannie refused to use the bathroom because it had a \"whites only\" sign. And she obviously had a pretty significant need, otherwise we wouldn't have stopped in the first place.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6006.0,6036.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/307","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: So yeah, I guess we didn't say, well we might've said this, I can't remember. That there— my understanding is there were seventeen Queens College Student Help students there. Sixteen were white and then one was Black. I'm curious, did that kind of come up in these, you know, it sounds like you have this very close community, having these meetings where you reached consensus and talked through issues. Was it obvious that, you know, was it true that she had a different experience? I'm just curious, what was your sort of perspective on, on what her experience was like as a Black woman there?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6036.0,6073.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/308","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: She has been in the South, so she had a much better perspective on what the South was like. So in some cases, she could interpret for us what was going on. But— this, this sounds a little, will sound weird, but for all intents and purposes, for those six weeks, we were all Black. And so I don't think there was any real difference and certainly I recall nothing in our discussions where Carolyn had a different perspective than the rest of us.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6073.0,6114.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/309","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: I do want, I do want to comment on group process. Again, we had those weekly meetings. We were, a lot of us were stressed and tired and dealing with the \n[unclear] but for again, a bunch of young immature people, we worked very, very, very, very well as a group. We were thoughtful, we made mature decisions. I then, and, and in retrospect, I'm very proud of how the group functioned.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6114.0,6158.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/310","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. I, I would agree with that. And although we've labeled ourselves as immature several times during this conversation, I also think it's fair to say that we were pretty strongly committed to principle. That we believed in certain principles and we were willing, in part due to Sid Simon and Rachel Weddington, we were committed to certain principles and we were willing to stand up for them. And so for me, even though I think we were immature and had an enormous amount to learn, I'm actually proud of how we lived out what we said we believed.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6158.0,6209.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/311","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6209.0,6209.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/312","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Yeah. And to the degree that there's a little bit of naïveté sometimes I think that's necessary. I mean, I know when I was younger, it was easier to do activism because I didn't have a kid and my job wasn't that important. And, you know, I think it just gets a little harder when you get older, so.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6209.0,6224.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/313","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Well, yeah. And I've had as an adult with children, I've had several experiences where I had to make choices between the stability and financial security of our family, as opposed to doing something that really aligned more with what I really believed, but that would have cause significant, could have caused significant harm to my family.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6224.0,6255.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/314","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And there've been several times in my professional career where I've had to deal with that, with those choices and they become much harder, much harder when you have children and responsibilities. We didn't have children, we didn't have any responsibilities. We could afford to, to live out our principles. And I see that in the students I've taught and I admire that about them. But I can see why people become a little bit more conservative as they take on more and more responsibility. Makes the choices much harder.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6255.0,6304.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/315","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah. I agree very much with Mike. My experiences in Virginia, I think did help in an ongoing way. I have too often done things which have jeopardized my career, and I made those knowingly. But a little vignette, my daughter, Sarah, not too long ago mentioned to me, and she's forty-eight now, mentioned to me that when she was growing up, she worried about me losing my job and us losing our home and being out on the street. I had no idea that she had that awareness, but it was well founded.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6304.0,6363.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/316","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. And I'm not, I haven't ever heard that from any of my kids, I have three. But I, there were several times and sometimes I made a decision that was more practical than principle, and other times I made a decision that was more principle than practical. Depended on the situation. But I'm well aware of how much more difficult those decisions are when you have a family and responsibilities.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6363.0,6399.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/317","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: It seems very clear that this, you know, this early experience really impacted the trajectory of your careers.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6399.0,6409.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/318","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Without doubt.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6409.0,6410.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/319","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I started out, Stan and I started out together as a junior high school teachers after we graduated. Stan went on to get a master's and PhD and become a terrific teacher at UConn and author of textbooks and that sort of thing. I actually found myself bored with teaching and got involved in community organizing and the anti-poverty program in West Virginia. Got into politics, wound up many years later as part of President Clinton's Initiative on Race. And I've worked on anti-poverty and anti-racist issues for my entire life, entire professional life. It was only in the early 2000s that I got back into teaching as an adjunct at GW, which caused Stan to call me \"Professor.\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6410.0,6481.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/320","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: So, let's go back. At the end of the summer, like you said, what an amazing time. On the way back, you literally organized the trip back to stop at the 1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. So do you want to just talk about what that was like?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6481.0,6498.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/321","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Two quick things, just a little vignette. One is, we had planned to meet our kids who were going down in separate buses at the Washington Monument. Who expected 250,000 people to be at the Washington Monument? So it was really almost a fool's errand that we wouldn't have found them in this massive, quarter million people. And what happened was, they had learned to do version of \"We Shall Overcome,\" was it, Mike?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6498.0,6535.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/322","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. It was Reverend Douglas, who was a young pastor in his twenties at the time, and he had taught the kids an upbeat kind of rock and roll version of \"We Shall Overcome.\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6535.0,6546.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/323","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: And we recognized them from singing and found them at the, near the Washington Monument. So that was just very cool. The second thing was, and I don't, I don't know how this came about, but we were invited to the office of Senator Jacob Javits of New York. And I don't know, maybe you have some recollection of how this transpired—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6546.0,6575.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/324","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: —\n[crosstalk] I was aware of it, but I didn't go to that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6575.0,6578.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/325","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Anyway, there were a number of us who the night, I guess the night before, the day before the march, went to Senator Javits's office and discovered that he had put in to the Congressional Record several sentences, paragraphs or pages about the Student Help Project and Queens College, and the work we had done in Prince Edward County and that was pretty cool.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6578.0,6612.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/326","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: I'll have to see, maybe we could dig out that from, from the archives somewhere.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6612.0,6616.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/327","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah. It should be pretty easy to find.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6616.0,6618.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/328","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, it would be on August 27th or 28th of 1963.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6618.0,6622.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/329","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Or it might've been a couple of days earlier.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6622.0,6625.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/330","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. But it's in that, in that time range.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6625.0,6627.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/331","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yes, yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6627.0,6630.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/332","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. I, I remember the, finding the kids at the Washington Monument, just like, you know, Stan's version. Stan's memory is consistent with mine. I did not go to the meeting with Jacob Javits. I'm not sure why, but yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6630.0,6650.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/333","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: One of my recollections was that it was so clear that Washington D.C. and the powers that be were scared to death about this march, of how many people they expected, 50,000 or whatever, all these Black people descending on D.C. And so one of the things you noticed immediately was that in a ring around the mall, all the buses were required to be lined up within inches of each other so that there was no escape out of that area without going through one or two or three different corridors controlled by the police. It was very interesting.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6650.0,6710.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/334","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. They were, they were very concerned about violence and the reality is that it was incredibly peaceful. Everybody was in really good spirits.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6710.0,6722.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/335","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6722.0,6723.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/336","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Inspired by the speeches and also inspired by the music. There was Pete Seeger and Peter, Paul and Mary, and others. And it was— and the weather was good. It was, it was a really uplifting day.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6723.0,6736.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/337","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6736.0,6739.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/338","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And that was two weeks, somewhere between two and three weeks before the Birmingham Church bombing, which kind of changed the mood in a hurry.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6739.0,6751.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/339","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6751.0,6753.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/340","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Just out of curiosity, since what that, you know, event is most famous for is the Martin Luther King speech, is that something you remember hearing at the time?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6753.0,6765.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/341","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, but wherever we were, and I have often said to my kids, I can show you the tree under which we sat, but I don't think that's true. That's part of my imagination, I think. But I don't think we recognized— speak for myself, I don't think I recognized at the time, the significance of that speech. I don't remember exactly where we were. I remember, it's interesting, I remember John Lewis's speech and I remember Walter Reuther's speech, he was the head of the United Auto Workers. And I remember Rabbi Prinz's speech. I have vague recollection of Dr. King's speech. And I don't think it was 'till afterwards that I recognized how significant and how powerful it was.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6765.0,6833.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/342","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah, I can't recall. I've seen so many pictures and so on of that experience, it's hard to know what I recall \n[crosstalk]—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6833.0,6847.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/343","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: —\n[crosstalk] Right. Yeah, there was a record that I remember a long, long-playing record that was in the era of vinyl records, you know, 33 1/3rd speech. And somewhere in my basement, I think I have that record of the March on Washington. And I can't remember any longer how much of what I think I remember, actually I do remember, or how much of that is from the record that I listened to.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6847.0,6883.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/344","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Okay. So I want to touch on the Jamaica Student Help Project. I guess, what do you recall about that? It sounds like you did a lot of the formulating the program, the logistics. Did you also do tutoring?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6883.0,6898.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/345","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah. Again, my role was planning and being the visionary for that and doing the logistics. I, I did, I did tutor at \n[unclear]. It was this, a church, maybe an AME Church in Springfield Gardens, Connecticut— Connecticut, New York. I don't, I don't recall much about that. I recall several faculty members who signed up as tutors, which I found very cool and were good role models for me as, as folks who, who were following and doing what their, their heads said with their feet.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6898.0,6962.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/346","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I, you know, my recollection is pretty vague. I sort of served the same kind of role that Stan did. He was the first chairman of the project and then I succeeded him. And so I did a lot of planning and arranging and writing. I did tutoring, but I have virtually no recollection of the tutoring experience. My recollection is more about kind of running the project, interacting with our faculty advisors and the Board of Education, and student recruitment, and that sort of thing, so.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=6962.0,7012.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/347","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah, the only vignette I can recall was, I think this again came through the incredible Rachel Weddington, the Grand Street Boys, maybe is the title of this organization. I have no idea what it is except it's old men. But somehow through Rachel, I believe, we were invited to meet with the head of that organization. I was asked to write a grant and the grant was funded, so that, that was how, the beginning funding for the Jamaica Student Help Project.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7012.0,7061.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/348","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I don't remember that. I—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7061.0,7064.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/349","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: —That may have been before your time. I was well gone.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7064.0,7066.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/350","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, could have been. But I—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7066.0,7066.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/351","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: But let me finish.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7066.0,7073.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/352","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Go ahead.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7073.0,7073.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/353","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: And just to put it together, my career as a professor has been highlighted by being the grant writer. And I, as a professor have gotten dozens of federal grants for many millions of dollars. And once again, it all started with the Student Help Project.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7073.0,7106.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/354","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, it's interesting because I've done some grant writing as well, but most of my writing, other than for myself, has been speech writing.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7106.0,7115.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/355","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: And it was then too.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7115.0,7116.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/356","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. And all of my speech has been informed by my experiences in Prince Edward County and my experience at Queens College. And I like to think— I've written for several pretty liberal politicians and I'd like to think that I bring the passion that flowered during my time in Prince Edward County and with Student Help Project. That that passion is infused in the speeches that I've written and in the speeches that I've given over time. So, and I think that's had an effect on my teaching in recent years as well. I think part of why I've had some success teaching is because I have a passion for what I'm doing and I think that that tends to, to come through.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7116.0,7185.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/357","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Likewise.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7185.0,7187.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/358","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7187.0,7189.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/359","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: That has been the hallmark of my career as well.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7189.0,7194.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/360","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nSpeaker 4 : I remember, and Stan was, was not part of this, but in 1964, in summer of '64, when Andy Goodman, Mickey Schwerner, and James Chaney were murdered in Mississippi, seven of us went on a hunger strike to raise people's awareness of what was happening in the South and also to raise money for activities, voter registration activities in the South.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7194.0,7233.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/361","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And there were seven of us, Gary Ackerman, who went on to be a Congressman and who was the editor of The Castle which was a Queens College publication at the time, was on that hunger strike. Ronny Pollack, who, was then Student Body President and went on to found both the Food Research and Action Committee and Families USA, and has played a significant role in health insurance in this country. Seven of us went on that hunger strike and that came out of our experience as well. And I was going somewhere with that, but I forgot where I was going with it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7233.0,7290.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/362","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: And I'm proud to note that I stood next to Mike when he spoke for the two of us on many, many, many occasions \n[laughter].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7290.0,7300.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/363","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: That reminds me of where I was going because— thank you! Because after that hunger strike which lasted five days, my parents, true to their passion and beliefs, organized a fundraising activity at the high school where I had graduated. And I thought they'd get three people because I didn't think that that community, which was all white and not really middle class, but upper middle class and wealthy, I didn't think three people would show up.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7300.0,7336.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/364","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Well actually the auditorium was packed. Andy Goodman's father was on the program. Ossie Davis, famous actor, was on the program. And I was on the program to speak just as a result of the hunger strike. And I gave about a three-minute speech, which apparently was, was pretty powerful because I got a standing ovation.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7336.0,7370.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/365","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: And as I was going back to my seat, somebody said to me, \"Mike, you're getting a standing ovation!\" And I remember that, and Ronny Pollack, who's still a friend, sometimes teases me to this day about some of the lines in that speech. One of which was, \"As long as James Eastland and whoever do what they,—\" I can't remember the line now, but as long as racism exists in the South, Goodman, Schwerner, Chaney will live on. And Ronny still talks about that today, so.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7370.0,7412.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/366","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: I wish we had some videos of this.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7412.0,7416.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/367","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: It, it was in prehistoric times.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7416.0,7421.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/368","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: I guess, is there— you've already touched on this, but is there anything else you'd want to say about how these experiences either shaped your outlook on race relations or racism in the United States or how change is made?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7421.0,7439.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/369","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah, that's something we've, we've edited most of our writing with when we talked about the experience. We, again, immature, naive, passionate \n[crosstalk]—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7439.0,7457.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/370","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: —\n[unclear] but principled.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7457.0,7457.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/371","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Principled college students, went to Prince Edward County and did our thing. But what the, the overriding, most powerful meaning of that for us, I believe, is that we learned that we could make a difference.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7457.0,7486.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/372","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: You know, no way did we solve racism. No way did we— were we wonderful and fantastic, but in numbers of lives, because we were true to our passion and worked together and worked hard, we made a difference in the lives of dozens, hundreds of folks. And when you can, you look at the two Student Help Projects and those alone, we affected thousands of folks. And since then through our jobs, through the writings we've done, through the speeches we've given, that has grown exponentially. And so that was the beginning of numbers of folks saying, \"We can do this. We can affect change.\" And, \"We have some skills to effect change.\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7486.0,7546.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/373","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, I would agree with that. One of the things that I teach in my classes is that you don't have to be a perfect person to be a change agent. And that's something that I think I learned largely from the Prince Edward County experience. That every human being has good points and bad points. That heroes, \"heroes,\" are not stick figures.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7546.0,7582.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/374","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: You know, we learn in school that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln, et cetera, were these perfect people. Well, they were not. They were people with warts. They did some really important things, but they also were people with significant warts. And what I teach is that anybody who chooses to be and has the passion can be a change agent. You don't have to be a perfect person to be a change agent.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7582.0,7618.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/375","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I think one of the weaknesses in public education is we teach that people heroes, quote, unquote, are stick figures, and that discourages students from thinking that they can be change agents because you learn that you have to be a perfect person. Well, the reality is that you don't have to be a perfect person. You have to have a commitment, you have to have principles, you have to have passion. But any one of us can be a change agent if we choose to be a change agent. And I learned that largely in Prince Edward County.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7618.0,7655.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/376","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: This is a perfect coda because I hear Mike and I hear Sid Simon.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7655.0,7661.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/377","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: \n[laughs].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7661.0,7661.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/378","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Fair?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7661.0,7665.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/379","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: That's true.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7665.0,7666.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/380","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Right. And I agree with him, but in my experience in my life, I teach the how to. So you have the passion that's really good, but tough world out there. How do you deal with it?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7666.0,7686.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/381","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah, I think that's absolutely crucial.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7686.0,7688.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/382","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: And that's from Rachel Weddington.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7688.0,7691.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/383","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7691.0,7691.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/384","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Thank you very much.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7691.0,7693.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/385","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Yeah. Yeah. And you can see how we both were influenced in a variety of ways by the faculty mentors we had at Queens College. And I have to say that I was not anxious to attend Queens College. You know, I had been in an Ivy League school for two years, and it just didn't seem right to me to go to Queens College.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7693.0,7721.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/386","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: It was by far, by far, the most enlightening and most experience— most enlightening and significant experience of my life was to go to Queens College and to be involved in the activities that I was involved in to make the friendships that I made. And it has— that experience at Queens College has been instrumental in virtually everything that I've done in my life, both in my professional career and my personal career, in the ways that I've raised my children. Everything, everything goes back to my four years at Queens College.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7721.0,7766.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/387","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Amen.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7766.0,7768.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/388","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Well, that's very powerful. And, you know, we're very grateful that we'll be able to preserve this in the archives and hopefully will inspire future generations of, of people and Queens College students. So thank you so much.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7768.0,7783.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/389","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: I love reminiscing about that. And of course, Stan and I are good friends, perhaps I'd say best friends.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7783.0,7795.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/390","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: You could.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7795.0,7796.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/391","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Doing this together is a particular treat for me.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7796.0,7800.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/392","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Yeah. Thank you, Annie.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7800.0,7803.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/393","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino: Okay. I'm going to hit stop on recording, but then we can talk for another minute.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7803.0,7806.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/394","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger: Sure.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7806.0,7806.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299/transcript/20573/annotation/395","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw: Okay.\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/31663/file/100299#t=7806.0,7808.08"}]}]}]}