{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/hq3rv0dv68/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Ray Franklin Oral History"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eDr. Raymond S. Franklin is Professor Emeritus in the Economics Department at Queens College, where he taught from 1964 until his retirement in 2002. He is also Director Emeritus of the college’s Michael Harrington Center for Democratic Values and Social Change, which he helped found in 1990. A self-described “radical economist,” Franklin has written numerous influential books and articles on the intersections of race, class and economics.  \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eIn this interview, Franklin looks back on a life and career filled with adventure and intellectual curiosity, beginning with his youthful days hitchhiking across the country, working odd jobs and encountering influential figures such as economist and social activist Scott Nearing and UAW organizers Emil and Ernie Mazey. He then recounts his brief, unhappy teaching stints at Vassar and City College before settling into his position at Queens. Shortly after receiving tenure, he was a leading faculty supporter of the student protests of 1969, along with fellow professors Sol Resnik, Frank Warren and Michael Wreszin. In the 1980s, Franklin co-founded Social Scientists Against Nuclear War, which ran an important conference at the CUNY Graduate Center for eight years. Franklin also reflects on some aspects of his personal life, such as working as a single father in the early 1960s, and meeting his wife Margery, now Professor Emerita of Psychology at Sarah Lawrence College. \u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["1948 - 2019 (temporal)","Detroit, MI; Denver, CO; Seattle, WA; Vermont; Flushing, Queens, NY (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2019-10-16 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Ray Franklin (Interviewee)","Dean Savage (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Audio"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["http://digitalarchives.queenslibrary.org/search/browse/40394"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eDr. Raymond S. Franklin is Professor Emeritus in the Economics Department at Queens College, where he taught from 1964 until his retirement in 2002. He is also Director Emeritus of the college\u0026rsquo;s Michael Harrington Center for Democratic Values and Social Change, which he helped found in 1990. A self-described \u0026ldquo;radical economist,\u0026rdquo; Franklin has written numerous influential books and articles on the intersections of race, class and economics. \u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eIn this interview, Franklin looks back on a life and career filled with adventure and intellectual curiosity, beginning with his youthful days hitchhiking across the country, working odd jobs and encountering influential figures such as economist and social activist Scott Nearing and UAW organizers Emil and Ernie Mazey. He then recounts his brief, unhappy teaching stints at Vassar and City College before settling into his position at Queens. Shortly after receiving tenure, he was a leading faculty supporter of the student protests of 1969, along with fellow professors Sol Resnik, Frank Warren and Michael Wreszin. In the 1980s, Franklin co-founded Social Scientists Against Nuclear War, which ran an important conference at the CUNY Graduate Center for eight years. Franklin also reflects on some aspects of his personal life, such as working as a single father in the early 1960s, and meeting his wife Margery, now Professor Emerita of Psychology at Sarah Lawrence College.\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/198/521/small/Ray-Franklin-2019-10-16-portrait.jpg?1689619926","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - Ray-Franklin-2019-10-16-full_-boost.mp3"]},"duration":4341.42041,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/198/521/small/Ray-Franklin-2019-10-16-portrait.jpg?1689619926","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/198/521/original/Ray-Franklin-2019-10-16-full_-boost.mp3?1689619646","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":4341.42041,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Full Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Hi, this is Dean Savage. I'm doing an oral history today, October 16, 2019, with Ray Franklin, retired professor of economics at Queens College.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=5.0,21.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: I think we can go, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=21.0,22.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: So now, Ray, start out at the beginning and tell us something about your life and the kinds of things that you did in your life and what your experiences have been.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=22.0,33.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Well, I'll start off with just real turning points. I went to an all-Jewish high school in Detroit, Michigan. I graduated in 1948. The last year of that graduation was, of course, the founding of Israel and the high school, my high school class was, all the leaders at least, were dominated by Zionists and they had a big influence on me. Before that, up to the 12th grade, I was sort of a jock. I was on the baseball team. I was also in golf. I got reasonably good grades, but not great grades, good enough to get into the university. But they had an influence on me in two ways. Politically, they had an influence, but socially they were free spirits, unlike the rest of the students who were in school. So that was the end of 1948. Then upon graduation, I went to the University of Michigan. There I lasted three semesters, I dropped out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=33.0,113.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: I was not very happy. I [don't] know, exactly know what it was about, but maybe it was related to pressures from my parents who wanted me to become a lawyer or a doctor. And none of those things influenced me. When I told my dad that I was taking a sociology course, he said 'socialism is for the rich, that's when you should become a socialist.' He didn't think it was an academic field.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=113.0,142.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: So at the end of my third semester, very depressed, I remember it so clearly, we lived, my room was in the attic, which was converted into a bedroom. And, it was 1949. We are, I was on Christmas vacation. Very depressed. It was raining hard for about...snowy, rainy, froze the whole period of time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=142.0,167.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: And I read two books from cover to cover. One was The American Tragedy by Theodore Dreiser and the other was Theory of the Leisure Class by Thorstein Veblen. Why I read those books, I have no idea. I heard about them and they put me into a very depressed situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=167.0,198.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: And what the, those two books had in common, for me at that time, was that they were about invidious comparisons and invidious aspirations. And I, I was, they affected me, and at that moment in 1949, in the winter recess, I decided to drop out of school. It was that fast. I didn't tell my parents. I went back to school and worked in a sorority house, room and board, but I wasn't going to school. And I decided then, at that point, at the end of the semester or somewhat before then, with 35 dollars in my pocket, to hitchhike west.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=198.0,250.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: In 1949.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=250.0,252.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: 1949, the end, that's when I made the decision. I left a little, probably a little bit after. The, maybe the earliest, '50 when, somewhere around that time. I don't -- I hit, I went west, and I got odd jobs. The market was very good for jobs at that time. It was the '50s, the economy was booming everywhere, so I got very odd jobs until I got to Denver.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=252.0,287.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: In Denver, I got my first serious job at Gates Rubber Company. I worked in temperatures that were 104 degrees in the basement. I pulled out slabs of wire of -- of rubber, from the furnace in the basement, which were molded into tires. And I worked there until I accumulated a lot of money. I had a very funny incident. I lived in a sloppy motel with gravel roads, you know, it was an offbeat motel and there was a bar about two blocks away.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=287.0,331.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: The day after -- the day that I planned, the day before I quit to go on [unclear]. I raised, accumulated enough money. I got paid. I went into a bar. It was -- the bar was all Spanish. They were all speaking Spanish. There was one seat at the bar and I sat in the seat and I asked the guy next to me. He looked like about my age. I said, ‘Do you speak English?’ And he said, 'Only English.' And then we started talking and I said, 'Where are you from?' He said, 'Detroit.'  And I said, ‘I'm from Detroit’ and we had another drink. And then he said, 'I' he said, 'I know two people.' What we talked about, he knew two people in Detroit, they were Trotskyites. And I knew those two people. Not well, but I knew them well enough. And we were going to take over the world and...And then we finally, I went to my place, he went to his place. I never saw him again. But that was a coincidence that stuck in my mind at that time. In any event. I got my hitchhiking experiences. Those were great stories for my children.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=331.0,417.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: You traveled by hitchhiking.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=417.0,418.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: All over, I learned the art of hitchhiking. The art of hitchhiking, aside from looking reasonably good, you put up a sign, not where you're destined, you put up a sign where the next town is, 20 miles. People feel that's safe. And sometimes they like company. And then once I got, I got a ride, we started talking and I said, I'm really going much further. Oh, fine, fine. He felt, he felt safe and so that was the Denver experience. I finally got to Seattle, Washington. I got a room on Cherry Lane or Cherry Street.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=418.0,463.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Cherry Street.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=463.0,464.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Which at that time was a slum, completely. It was very shady. I got a basement room, I couldn't see out of the room except for legs that walked by. One room was a bathroom, and that's where I stayed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=464.0,485.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: I know I took a bus to the plant, but I don't know what the name of the plant was. I know what I did. It was an easy, comfortable job. As planes came down this, the assembly line, there were tables, round tables, and at each table, someone did something different. I had a stencil, I was stenciling pieces of aluminum that would be then cut and pasted on the plane. But, Boeing was a very good place. They offered people a chance to go to school, to get promoted, to get more skills. I really found it very pleasant.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=485.0,531.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: There was one funny incident there, one of the planes, as it came by, there was a little line, a little line and a ladder to the cockpit. And so I asked one of the guys, what are you doing there? Why is there a line under this? Well, it turned out there was a prostitute in the cockpit and they were taking turns for five dollars. For five dollars, an opportunity to work off their sweat and....And, at 5 o'clock or 4 o'clock, she came down. She was a very attractive woman. And earning, not only her salary but this extra money, and of course, the foreman knew it. Everyone knew it, except maybe the higher people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=531.0,589.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: In any event, I hit the road again. I didn't go, I went a little south, stopped off at places in Texas, but eventually I hit the road. I had enough money to hit the road and I often hitchhiked at night because then I didn't have to have a place to stay. So I slept in parks and then got into a gas station, shaved, fixed myself up and then got [rides]. In Amarillo, Texas, I once got stuck for two days. The people would stop me and said, buddy, you'll never get a ride here, two people were just killed, by hitchhikers. You know, so it would, crickets all over those beats, bitten all over. And finally, a truck driver, at 11 a.m., 11 p.m., picked me up. He didn't know about [the murders], and I got a long ride and got out of Amarillo, Texas.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=589.0,659.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Now, what explains why you decided to move on? You've got a job in Denver that seemed like it was a good job. You have a job in Seattle and Boeing and you...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=659.0,669.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: I wanted to see the West Coast, I wanted to see the country. And I was OK, I wasn't worried about money because I was getting pretty good money for... OK, so, I got to Vermont, and -- is this working?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=669.0,699.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: I don't know. I do not know. Let me stop for a moment. [PAUSE IN RECORDING]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[Editor’s note: Due to a technological malfunction, several minutes of the interview were not recorded. At this point, Franklin described his travels back to the East Coast with the intention of seeking out the famed economist and social activist Scott Nearing, who was then living and farming in rural Vermont. The recording resumes with Franklin recalling his conversation with one of Nearing’s neighbors.]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=699.0,713.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: So he said, and then all of a sudden he said, 'but he's a Goddamn good farmer. He taught us how to grow the tomatoes and carrots and corn.'","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=713.0,724.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: He taught the farmers?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=724.0,727.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: He taught the farmers. He was a good organic farmer, Scott Nearing. 'And we win the state fair for the best tomatoes in the state every year.' So that was acceptable. They didn't care about his politics, but he was a good farmer. He knew about organic farming and he taught the neighborhood, the whole neighborhood, the whole neighborhood of farmers how to do organic farming.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=727.0,754.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: So that was the, and then I asked him [Nearing], I want to go to college, but I don't want to take courses. I just want to read. 'So, aah, aah, there is a place in Plainfield, Vermont, called Goddard College. I don't know anything about it, but I think you could maybe just read.' So I hopped up there and I enrolled for the following, for the fall. I was there in the spring. Scott Nearing himself. Enrolled right on the spot. So that's how I got into Goddard College.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=754.0,792.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: And Goddard College at that time? Say some more about what it was like?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=792.0,797.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yeah, well, there were 250 students. It was a John Dewey school. It was started by, uh, I'll think of his name, the president who, the one who started was the president of the college, and it was... classes were very small. There were no grades. There was written evaluations. The kinds of students that were there I found out after I did, there were a few like me, who were sort of on the radical bent and were intellectual. There, I think the dominant group were artists who wanted to paint and write, and there were also rich Fifth Avenue dilettantes who couldn't get in to any other school, but they promised, the school was promised a contribution upon graduation. And I did, that I didn't know until later. But everyone wore clothes that were really sloppy, looking like total bums. But comes vacation time, Christmas vacation, all of a sudden, I see limousines lined up. And the limousines had chauffeurs, they came and picked up the Fifth Avenue students, etc. So that was a surprise to me. I didn't know anything about that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=797.0,898.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: In any event, I went back. I dropped out after the third [semester]... At Goddard I met my mentor, a guy named George Woodard, a very unusual man. He was born in Wyoming. He knew everything about cattle breeding that you had wanted to know. He read the Bible. He was brought up in a very religious atmosphere. He knew the Bible by heart, Old Testament. He could cite it for any event in which... And he also was a Shakespearean, he knew Shakespeare.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=898.0,937.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: I don't know exactly how he got from there to New York. But in the course of his life, he became a member of the Communist Party. He taught at the Jefferson School. At Goddard, at Goddard, he inspired me. He was a very, a very slow-moving teacher. He wasn't, not -- he wasn't a popular teacher. He made a few points each semester, but they were really powerful points. He introduced me to all the classics: Marx, Smith, Keynes, John Stuart Mill, Ricardo as an economist. He introduced me to Freud. And Dewey and philosophers of all kinds.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=937.0,996.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: So this was not just an economics class. This was broad social theory.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=996.0,1001.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: He taught economics.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1001.0,1002.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: OK.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1002.0,1008.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: But, I was, I was impressed with him and he was impressed with my eagerness, so he introduced me to the old Socialist Party of Eugene, dominated by Eugene V. Debs. That's who had a big influence on me. And so, I kept up with him after I left, when I left. He died at 57th Street, of a heart attack in New York. But I had retained his, I knew his family and I knew his wife. Now he was expelled. How he got to Goddard was an interesting...Pickens was the president of Goddard [ed. note: Royce S. \"Tim\" Pitkin was president of Goddard at the time].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1008.0,1046.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1046.0,1047.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: And how I got to Goddard, how he got to Goddard... He was expelled from the Communist Party because he sided with Browder in the [William Z.] Foster-[Earl] Browder...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1047.0,1059.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: A debate which almost everyone has forgotten.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1059.0,1062.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yes, absolutely. And what, how he got to Goddard was that Pickens,.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1062.0,1069.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Pitkin.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1069.0,1070.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Pickens, the president, anyone who was, didn't cooperate with HUAC was called and said, do you want a job? No, no interview or anything.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1070.0,1080.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: HUAC is the House UnAmerican Activities Committee, which was essential in exploring or investigating, harassing, people who were reputedly members of the Communist Party in the late '40s and early '50s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1080.0,1095.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Right. So that, that's how he got to Goddard. And there were other people. There was a German dramatist who was just unbelievably brilliant. So he got a lot of good teachers for no, almost no salary because they were happy just to get out of New York.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1095.0,1114.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: An unusual recruitment policy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1114.0,1115.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yeah. So that was really fun. I got...I get...Goddard was divided into two schools. The first two, first two years was, you took courses; the second two years, you created your own curriculum. And so I listed 100 books that I wanted to read in my second two years and they rejected me. They rejected a promotion for me because they thought it was too ambitious and too immature. So I decided I couldn't take it and I went back to Detroit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1115.0,1157.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: After three semesters, you returned to Detroit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1157.0,1160.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: From. Yeah. OK. And then, there I enrolled at, at Wayne State University, I worked in the auto industry, I worked in the union, and I started what was called the Joint Labor Forum, which met every month in the Detroit Public Library, and we had about 200 people attending each month. This is a time when the Democratic Party couldn't gather 12 people at a public meeting. And in the course of that, I met a very active unionist, Emil Mazey, who was a brother of Ernie Mazey, who was head of the UAW [United Auto Workers]; he was president of Local 13, which I think made Packard automobiles. But we, I started the forum and then he joined, so we had a big crowd and the forum was just general education. We invited C. Wright Mills, we invited Paul Sweezy, we invited a guy who wrote -- anyone who had concern with power in America, but they were mostly academics. It wasn't a left wing, it was a liberal left forum, but it was very successful. And I worked day and night in the auto industry. It was easy to switch to night shift, or day shift, depending on my course load. At Wayne I got a B.A. degree in sociology and was, the teacher I remember was Harold Shepard, who did a big, who did a big study of how UAW votes. And I participated in that study, interviewed workers, mainly in bars, and that was an experience for me. Then I got an M.A. in economics.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1160.0,1290.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Also at Wayne State?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1290.0,1293.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: At Wayne State, absolutely. And, and I had, I got married and I had a baby, Ken. And in 1958, I decided it was time to get on with my life. And I applied to Berkeley until...I applied to Stanford, too, by the way. I got a scholarship from Stanford, but I was rejected as a student. I don't know how that happened, but apparently the two processes were independent at that time. At Berkeley, I got a tuition scholarship, a stipend to become a teacher's assistant, which was very good because I learned economics more seriously.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1293.0,1343.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: So you're starting graduate school on your doctoral work at age 28?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1343.0,1348.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yes. In 1958.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1348.0,1352.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Fifty-eight.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1352.0,1352.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Absolutely. And, it was, after three years I didn't have a single, I came out even. I had enough money to pay for room and board and tuition, because I had the scholarship for both, and in the course of that, I got divorced, or separated, at Berkeley and I came home. I came to my first job at Vassar College. Now, that was funny. I -- every job I've had, almost, was without an interview. The chairman of Vassar, economics chairman, called up and they said, asked for, they called up the placement person at, in the economics department.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1352.0,1407.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: At Berkeley.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1407.0,1408.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: At Berkeley. And he said, 'I want a Berkeley man' to quote, 'to teach in our department. And it would be best if he had a social science background, not just a narrow economist.’ And the teacher who was the rotating placement officer of the time, who taught the history of economic thought, he said, 'We have one person who qualifies for that job. You have 24 hours to decide. He'll be gone.' He [the Vassar chair] said, 'We'll hire him.' [laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1408.0,1447.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: So in the fall, in a Volkswagen bug, which I had, and my son wasn't with me at that time, but he came a month later, I got my first job at Vassar, taught economics. And technically, it was a seven-year contract, but it was renewed each year. That is, I could stay seven years without my Ph.D. I didn't, I had everything but my dissertation when I came to Vassar.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1447.0,1496.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: So you were there for two years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1496.0,1499.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Two years, 1962 to ’64. 1961.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1499.0,1506.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Sixty-two to ’64, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1506.0,1507.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: And that's where I met Margery. She was in the psychology department.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1507.0,1513.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Your wife, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1513.0,1514.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Right. But, why I, why I was, after two years, fired was not clear to me. Margery has several speculations. She was very successful. They wanted her, she was a perfect person – professional, attractive, a woman. She was going to be – at an all-woman's college. She was going to be a dean, someday.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1514.0,1548.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: But, see, I didn't go to faculty teas, which were every Thursday afternoon, because I had a son to take care of and I wanted to spend as much time as I could with him. That was one reason.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1548.0,1566.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: You were a single parent at the time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1566.0,1567.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: I was a single parent, a single father. And yes. I enrolled him in nursery school. Vassar had a nursery school for children, so he was right on campus, so I could drop by at lunch and see him, you know. It was convenient. The second reason was, the department chair, Howard, his name was...I think maybe Howard was his last name, I don't remember. Howard was his name [ed. note: Dr. Howard Marshall]. He was jealous of me. All the good students were attracted to my class, especially the seminars where they had a choice of two or three seminars. And I had really great students, some of the best students I ever had. And it was a seminar in Keynes. And so that, he got jealous. And I lived right next door to him, and I lived in a big house. The college supplied cheap housing for, yeah, I had to pull the shades down because I didn't have much furniture and I was living alone so I pulled the shades down, because it was visible right up, right across the street from the campus. You know, students walk by.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1567.0,1659.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: In any event, I was fired, let go. Now, he asked if I wanted a recommendation. I said, ‘No, no need.’ 'No, I'll write you a recommendation and I'll show it to you.' This was the exact words of the recommendation: 'Mr. Franklin is a very engaging teacher.' First sentence. 'Secondly, this is an all-girls school.' Period. And he sent that off to Ben Ward, who at that time was the placement officer.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1659.0,1705.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Ben Ward was the placement officer at...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1705.0,1709.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: At Berkeley.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1709.0,1710.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: At Berkeley.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1710.0,1710.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: And he sent it. I knew Ben Ward as I took a class with him. So I called him up and he said, before I said anything, he said, 'Ray, don't worry, it's not your fault.' Now, there was some redemption. Ten years later, he invited me back, this Howard, to be, to be a commentator on Solow, Robert Solow.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1710.0,1746.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: He was invited for the weekend. A Nobel Prize winner. And I was going to comment on his [unclear]. Paid me $2,000, and he introduced me as one of the most prominent radical economists and – which was not true. I was, I just happened to have published in a prominent journal, 'What Is Radical Economics?' But I was not a big player. But I did follow. I was a member of the Union of Radical Political Economists at that time. And I wrote an article just for people, all the different ideas that buttressed radical economics. So he, that was his way of apologizing for it since. OK, so...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1746.0,1795.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Then you went on to City College.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1795.0,1797.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: I went, how I got into City College. Again, no interview. That Howard, um, no, you -- what was his name?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1797.0,1808.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Villard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1808.0,1808.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yeah, Villard, Henry Villard, [Chair of Economics] at City College, called me up and he said, 'You had my daughter in class and she said, I asked her if there are any good teachers in economics at Vassar. And she said, there's only one and his name is Ray Franklin.' So he – and his wife was on the board of directors of Vassar, so how could you go wrong?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1808.0,1844.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Oh, yes. The third reason, flashback, why I was fired. I was a second reader of a senior thesis. And I wouldn't give that student a C minus, because she didn't do any work. She did write. And they came up to me, the department chair, and said, would you change the grade? Because she won't graduate, and her father has promised the school a lot of money. I said, ‘I'm not going to change it. If the dean wants to change it, I don't want to know anything about it.’ I would have – if she had, if this student had tried a little bit, I would have given her a C, but there was no effort. She didn't care, she was [unclear], she didn't read anything I suggested. So that was the third reason probably for being let go. In any event, I stayed on about a year later and worked at the Hyde Park Library in Hyde Park, the FDR [the Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1844.0,1916.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: I started off to write a dissertation on Roosevelt. But after six months there, I realized that what I wanted to say had already been pretty much said. And I didn't want to take a small, little thing. I'm not good at taking one little, tiny point and working it to death. So I gave that up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1916.0,1940.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: So on, August 30, I get this call from Villard: ‘You want a job? Teaching four elementary courses?' It's good because you have four courses, the same courses. Easy. So I said, ‘Sure. Shall I come in?’ And I, I'm teaching, that's all.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1940.0,1967.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: You're back in the classroom.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1967.0,1968.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: I'm back in the classroom. And he [Villard] said, 'I ordered my textbook for your four classes.' Besides, you know, I came in in August, I didn't have anything ordered. So he ordered his textbook, he wrote a textbook. He made everyone in the department use it. So the next year, at a department meeting, he went, he pointed, 'Morris, you're going to use my text?' 'Yeah.' 'Henry?'  'Yeah.'  ‘John?’ 'Yeah.' Came to me -- it was a terrible textbook, had mistakes, but it was also tedious and had a monetarist orientation, it wasn't general. People didn't learn anything. So I said, 'No, Henry, I have standards.' I said it very lightly, you know. I just, you know, I whispered it, just [unclear]. Henry Villard was very rich, and he wasn't even getting paid for his job. He was a volunteer head of the department. He lived on, he had a big mansion on the East Side. So I walked out and Morris Silver, a colleague of mine, said, 'Ray, you just lost your job.' 'Come on, Morris, I was just kidding, you know that, everyone had a little smile on their face.' 'Yeah, they had a smile on their face, they were saying goodbye.' I was not aware of the, I didn't know Henry, you know, he was – I didn't know how big his ego was about this shitty textbook (sorry). So in any event, I lost my job. So I finished the year.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=1968.0,2088.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: That was after two years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2088.0,2089.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: After, in the middle of the second year, he dropped, he and his assistant department chair, came unannounced into my class of 12 students. They sat in the middle of the class with a yellow pad. The class was awful. They had no discussion. The class was full of questions...[unclear] So I, when class dismissed, they stood at the door of the classroom and they said, ‘We didn't like the way you defined savings.’ So I said, ‘I don't think, I don't remember talking about savings.’ And that was it. And the next week I got my dismissal. Margery was really mad at me for rejecting, because I didn't have a job. I had this interview at.some college in Maryland, a woman's college.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2089.0,2163.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Goucher?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2163.0,2163.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yeah. So, but I heard that Queens had a job. And so I applied for that, and Hamovitch wanted to interview me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2163.0,2179.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: This was Bill Hamovitch, who was a professor in the economics department at Queens College.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2179.0,2184.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yes. And, I remember this interview because it was pretty funny. He asked me why I wanted to come to Queens College and I said, 'I don't know anything about Queens College, but I have a custody case and I have to be in New York.' And he said, 'No one has ever given me that as a reason for coming to Queens College.' And he was concerned, because at that time it was three years, up and out. And if you were in the system and you were teaching continuously, you had to then be evaluated at the end of the third year, and I'd broken the period of time. It wouldn't have been a problem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2184.0,2230.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: So, he called up Henry Villard. I don't know what the conversation [was]. Henry never sent in a written recommendation. Henry said, according to Hamovitch, and maybe Hamovitch made this up, because it was a very laudatory, a very positive interview. Hamovitch said, he said I was the next John Maynard Keynes. But then, so Hamovitch asked, ‘Well, why are you getting rid of him?’ 'Well, he conflicts with a senior, his interests conflict with a senior member of the department.' And that was it. So Hamovitch then knew there was something going on that wasn't kosher.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2230.0,2277.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: So now you're at Queens College.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2277.0,2279.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yeah. I was at Queens College, and that turned out to be a blessing for me. I quickly, I quickly felt extremely comfortable in the economics department. I didn't know anyone else, but I felt – I was there for 30 years and my period there was just great. I got up every morning and said to myself, 'Thank God I don't work for a living.' I enjoyed it so much, and I enjoyed it for a lot of different reasons. Not only was I productive, not only was the last book that I had published, Shadows of Race and Class, which got a national award, and some other awards...and in that course of life at Queens I co-founded the Social Scientists Against Nuclear War. What we had, a co-founder, we organized a whole university conference which was held at the [CUNY] Graduate Center. We invited famous people and we got a little money for it. We invited well-known people all over the world known for anti-nuclear war activism. And it was just a very successful conference and out of that, we developed an organization. We had a newsletter. We circulated it and it lasted about eight years and I got, uh...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2279.0,2378.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: And what period was this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2378.0,2381.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: This started in 1984.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2381.0,2384.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: 1984, and it lasted for eight years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2384.0,2387.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Eight years. It just petered out. But I got inquiries from high school students wanting to know more because we had a newsletter. And that should be circulated. And they found that they wanted to know more about what to do about nuclear war. Things like that. So it was fairly successful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2387.0,2408.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Could you say a little more about how it happened after two rather difficult starts at other colleges that Queens College turned out for you to be a place where you felt very comfortable?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2408.0,2422.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Well, I think the first thing is Hamovitch, the head of the department, liked me and we bonded. I found out, many years later, that I was part of his redemption need; he didn't do very well in the period when HUAC was firing people, and he had two friends in the economics department, which he did not support who were fired. There, it was well-known case, well-known cases. And he looked at my résumé – now, I had published already before I even got into, I published a couple articles in Monthly Review and one, two little pieces in The American Socialist, which was a break from the Trotskyist group, a split. So he knew I was radical. And I hadn't, I couldn't, I never lied on my résumé. I just couldn't. I wouldn't. I was, whatever I wrote, I wrote this [unclear], which at that time I believed and I wrote it accurately, it wasn't...So, I don't even know if he read them, it's not clear, but they were on my résumé. And also I had one article, a professional article, on the physiocrats in the 18th century, that came out of my, it was in a professional journal, and it was published because the teacher who I had at Berkeley, I had to submit a paper for the seminar, and he liked that paper and he said it's worth publishing. And I said, ‘Well, I don't know where to publish it,’ and he said, ‘The Journal of Economics and Sociology publishes articles about economists interested in land reform and things of that nature.’ So I submitted. It was accepted. So I had that [unclear]. That was a class project, I mean, everyone had to write a paper or an essay. I found Berkeley very, very [hard]. I worked literally 10 hours a day between my [being a] teaching assistant and assignments. It was not casual. Maybe for brighter students, it was easier, I don't know. At any event....","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2422.0,2601.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: You're there at Queens and you've got colleagues that you appreciate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2601.0,2605.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: No. Oh, yeah. That was a little later. Hamovitch decided that he didn't want – we were hiring a lot of people, and he wanted – we both drank martinis, and he wanted me to come with him [to conferences] because he enjoyed my company. And so, I said, I'll come with you if you will, we will hire the best people. I will contact people who I think would be good for the department and will fit the slot that we needed, and you can invite anyone. So, I called up Bowles, from Harvard, who was teaching [there], and another guy...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2605.0,2651.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: That's Kenneth Bowles [ed. note: Samuel Bowles].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2651.0,2652.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yeah, and another guy. [I said], just let me know if you, any of the Ph.D.s are interested in coming to New York at Queens. So he gave me a list. And then I met people that I was, I met some people, I was head of a seminar, a political economy seminar at Columbia for five years, which I founded. I was chair for two years, but it continued for a longer time. This was an academic faculty seminar that met once a month. It was mostly done by Columbia professors, but a few outside. So that's why I met Edelstein.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2652.0,2709.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Michael Edelstein.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2709.0,2709.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: And Carl Riskin.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2709.0,2709.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Carl Riskin. Both of whom are on the faculty at Columbia at the time. They later came to Queens College.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2709.0,2719.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yes. And they were part of the.seminar and so...and there were other people we hired, some didn't turn out too well. One had to be de-tenured because he had two full-time jobs, which he lied [about]. I've forgotten his name, and he turned out to be a real right-winger at the end. Another guy from the University of Michigan was a very good teacher, but unfortunately an alcoholic. So that didn't work out very well. But there were enough people. And then, I met Peter Manicas in the philosophy department. We used to talk on, we talked at night. Peter attributed my influence. He was an analytical philosopher at the time. He essentially became a Marxist philosopher from my influence, and I am not sure that it was that direct, because I introduced him to books like The Limits of Growth and things of that nature, which were not that radical, but they were more interesting. And so we would meet for lunch and then people gathered around lunch, and then pretty soon we decided to go into the faculty dining room and have a regular lunch every Monday. And I think Smith was involved with that, too.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2719.0,2819.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Charles Smith from sociology.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2819.0,2820.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Oh, yeah, but I sustained it. They were interested in the first two meetings, but they didn't want to make certain we had a person invited.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2820.0,2832.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: And this was what came, what became a rather well-known Monday lunch series where you had the faculty, mainly from the social sciences, but actually from all over Queens College, gather every Monday, and they would have a speaker in. And this turned out to be a very attractive, very reinforcing kind of continuing seminar series that happened at lunchtime at Queens College. It was one of the glorious things of the 1980s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2832.0,2863.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yes. I agree. And that, that expanded my contacts with the social science, people in the social science division, like you and Sol [Resnik] and other people. And that just made my life. So...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2863.0,2883.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Can you say something about the students that you had during this time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2883.0,2889.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yes, I had a lot of fairly good students, but I had two or three really excellent students. One was Jeff Isaac, who I see today, who became professor of political – he was a double major – he became a professor of political science at Indiana.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2889.0,2914.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Indiana.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2914.0,2914.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Right. Joan Nix, who became, joined the faculty, she was a student...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2914.0,2928.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: At Queens College.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2928.0,2928.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: She was an undergraduate student at Queens, and I bumped into her sort of accidentally. She was roaming around the office and she didn't know what to do. She wanted someone to sign her program. I was there. I said, 'Can I help you?’ She started talking, and she took a class, and I liked her, she was really... She was quiet, but I – but she, when the first exam was given, I began to realize that her being quiet was just being shy. But not.  But very studious. So we became friends. I recommended her in various positions as she went up the ladder, got her Ph.D. at NYU, and worked to get her back. But I wasn't really the only one who was influential in getting her back. Because by that time I had, became director of the Michael Harrington Center.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=2928.0,3001.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Say more about the Michael Harrington Center. Maybe start by saying something about Michael Harrington's presence at Queens College.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3001.0,3007.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yes. Well, Michael...Michael and I had martinis every night at 5 o'clock in the faculty dining room when they were serving, and we talked. That's how I met Michael. And we had a continuous argument about whether the socialists should go inside the Democratic Party or work outside. I was for outside, he was for inside. But it wasn't, you know, it wasn't necessarily fired up, but we, we talked, about other things, too. I didn't know him personally well, but I knew him well enough about, on that, in that context. He was a great lecturer. I don't think, students tell me, he paid enough attention to the papers that they wrote, things of that nature. He was always on his way to give a talk here and there, but they were stimulated by his lectures. And I got that from Isaac, Jeff Isaac, who took his class. So, how the Michael Harrington Center [unclear] in the course of...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3007.0,3090.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Joe Murphy is crucial here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3090.0,3092.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yes, absolutely. Joe Murphy, first place; Joe Murphy, and myself, and Michael Wreszin...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3092.0,3109.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Perhaps Bogdan Denitch?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3109.0,3109.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: No, Denitch was not there. Michael Wreszin, myself...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3109.0,3111.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Sol [Resnik]?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3111.0,3122.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: No. Michael Harrington. Yes, Mike. We met every Thursday, more or less. His office was downstairs in the front building.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3122.0,3134.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Jefferson.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3134.0,3135.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Jefferson.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3135.0,3138.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: That's when the presidency, after the students took over the tower [in 1969], the presidency was moved down to the ground floor on Jefferson. That's where you were meeting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3138.0,3148.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: That's right. We, we drank and we told stories. I don't think I should tell some of the things he said. But we talked about all kinds of things. And then...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3148.0,3162.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: This is a very unusual thing where you have several faculty members who are really active at the college meeting every week to have a drink with the president of the college. This is not something that happens very often in the history of Queens College.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3162.0,3182.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: No. No. And we talked with one of the – Al Levenson was made a dean. Al Levenson was [from] the economics department, not terribly liked. And so I asked him [Murphy] what – this was when he became president, Murphy became president – I asked him, how, why did you make him a dean? He said, 'Ray, I make him a dean, he shuts up. I'm president, he's not going to say anything. And he wasn't a very good teacher, and so I got, I got two things. I got him out of the classroom and I shut him up. And I was, in fact, all the conservatives I appointed as deans were against me, they hated me. That's why I made them deans. Deans don't do anything, they just shuffle paper.' \u003claughs\u003e He was very clever in that sense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3182.0,3238.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: He was president at Queens in the 1970s and later became the chancellor of the entire CUNY system.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3238.0,3244.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: That's right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3244.0,3246.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: And that was when he was chancellor that he was instrumental in helping to found the Michael Harrington Center.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3246.0,3256.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Exactly, and he, uh, Shirley Strum Kenny was the president [of Queens] at that time. And he said, ‘I'll give you some money.’ This is when he was retiring and he had a bunch of money to distribute. He'll give me some money. How much do I want? I went to Shirley. First I went to Marvin, who was...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3256.0,3287.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Marvin?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3287.0,3288.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: He was the assistant to the president.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3288.0,3291.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Yeah, I know Marvin. Marvin Taylor?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3291.0,3298.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Um-hmm, and Marvin Taylor thought that [unclear] ask him for $100,000. Then I went to Shirley. She said, ask him, don't ask him for a specific amount, ask him for as much as you could provide, because I want to set up a social justice center in Michael's name. And he liked Michael. And so he said, ‘How's $600,000?’ Fine. And he wrote it, the grant, in such a way it couldn't be touched. It was put into my bank account and I couldn't really...then I decided I had to get a secretary to, just to keep track of the money. And I did. So I got another guy was moved from the economics department to one of the secondary temporary buildings and we developed projects. And our most successful project was a prison project, in which...The day the Michael Harrington Center opened, shortly after the Michael Harrington Center was established, a guy named...it'll come to me. [Eddie Ellis]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3298.0,3397.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: I remember him, we can add it later. I remember hearing him talk.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3397.0,3401.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yeah. He talked at the Monday group.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3401.0,3435.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: All right. Well, OK. We'll fill that detail in later. And so the Michael Harrington Center. You were the director of the Michael Harrington Center from the time of its founding until 1995 when you retired. And along the way, toward the end of your career, you won an award for teaching, in 1993. You were one of the recipients of the Teacher of the Year Award.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3435.0,3462.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: That was the best thing that happened to me. If I had any, I had a few other little awards, but that was the one that I really cherished most, and was so pleased to get it. And I got a little note, I don't know if everyone got this little note. Shirley Strum Kenny sent a note announcing, you probably got one, I'm happy you got the award, but she wrote afterwards, she signed it, she said, 'Ray, I'm so happy that you got this award.' It was a little special. And that was nice. So.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3462.0,3498.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Before that, I brought this labor studies program to Queens, I brought that from Hofstra College. And that's still going under, uh...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3498.0,3514.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: It's still going, it's now directed by somebody in urban studies. But it's kind of become a little less active than it had been in the past. Now, maybe we should go back to an earlier time, since the college has recently had an exhibit about that, and I'm talking about the student takeover of the administration tower in Kiely in 1969.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3514.0,3542.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3542.0,3543.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: And you were actually a leading participant among the faculty in that event. Tell us more about that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3543.0,3550.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Hamovitch called me up at 3 o'clock in the morning and said, ‘I want you to come up to the tower and guard the door.’ And I said to him, ‘I can't do that.’ And by the way –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3550.0,3569.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: And what was the issue, what was developing here? Why were the students unhappy?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3569.0,3574.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Well, we were working on a demonstration. Well, there were a number – two issues. One was the Black students at – what was the program?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3574.0,3587.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: SEEK.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3587.0,3587.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: SEEK – who were rebelling, and the students who, the regular daytime students, were protesting the war. And I hadn't gotten tenure yet. In fact, the day I got tenure, I, the very day, Hamovitch tried to get into Powdermaker Hall and I was there to block it, because that was one of the things I had to do. You know, I maybe wasn't very smart about those things, but I, you know, I knew I had been submitted, submitted for tenure and so forth. But, so, the war was really at a demonstration when we took over Powdermaker Hall. And we had a division of labor. There were four people who were very prominent: Sol Resnik, myself, Michael Wreszin and Frank Warren. And each of us had a different kind of responsibility. Frank Warren, for reasons I don't know, had a key to every building, and they locked us out. But at 7 o'clock, the students would get up. And Frank Warren opened the door, I don't know. And he also provided access to a printer that could print paper, mimeograph, to distribute notices. [Editor's note: Frank Warren would like to make a friendly clarification that he did not in fact have a key or let students into buildings. He explains his role in the protests in his essay, \"\u003ca href=\"https://jstor.org/stable/community.31795204\"\u003eSpring 1969:The Bonding of Four Friends\u003c/a\u003e\"] Michael, Michael Wreszin was kind of a rabble rouser, he gave good speeches.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3587.0,3703.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: He gave good speeches.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3703.0,3706.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: I was, by the way, I was told this by somebody who was in the, I think history department. She went to NYU. What was her name? She did women's history, uh, German women.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3706.0,3728.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Marion Kaplan.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3728.0,3728.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Marion Kaplan. Marion Kaplan told me that the roles were, as she saw them, because we drove [her] home and drove her to school, she lived in the area. And she said that Michael was a rabble rouser. Frank had this special [unclear], Sol was like the secret man, the secret agent whispering in people's ears. And I was the strategist. I would design the strategy, whether we should shift places...And I think I was recognized as a leader of the radical faculty, because the dean often called me up and he threatened me with terrible things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3728.0,3783.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Now, one of the things that came out of the meeting, the Queens College Library recently as they were celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of the 1969 student protest, is that the two thrusts, the two factions in this protest, the SEEK [students], interested in the interests of minority students, and the students, the rest of the students, who were interested in protesting the war in Vietnam, they never quite came together, they never coalesced.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3783.0,3817.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Right. And an interesting side note of this. I knew Barbara Kaplan, who happened to be teaching in the SEEK program at that time. And that was a time also when the SEEK people wanted to get rid of all the white teachers, including Mark Rosenblum, who I knew also. So, how Barbara got involved, one summer, the SEEK program – there was a special program for high school students, Black students, to have a summer, you know, a special series of courses to prepare, to increase their skills.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3817.0,3879.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Summer [immersion].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3879.0,3879.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: And they asked Barbara to be the director. And it turned out the Blacks wanted another, a Black director. And so, we worked, I was called by the dean to essentially negotiate this because they didn't know, I was the only radical who had, was connected to the administration. They called me. They called [Charlie] Smith, too, but he was too friendly to the administration. They called me because they knew that I had ground troops. So they asked me to make certain there was no trouble, that, and I said, well, you put Barbara Kaplan, she just lost her job, she has no job, she has no money, make her a co-director. And I negotiated that deal with the Black director. So that summer, my job was to keep the peace. OK, again, this, in that program, I forgot what it's called. And the reason why these students, the college wanted, they got huge sums of government money for that program. They made huge sums of money for two months of a program. So that was extremely helpful. The second I became co[-director?] and I said I would be co[-director?]. I would be responsible. But no, I didn't get any money for it. I refused to have any money. I would take the responsibility because I wanted Barbara to survive. And Barbara was Sol's girlfriend, and Sol was very active in SEEK behind the scenes. So the second I became director, students went on strike. And they blamed Barbara for it, because she was included in the radical SEEK. July 18th, my birthday, that summer, I get a telegram from the dean, Dean....","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=3879.0,4015.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Hartle?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=4015.0,4015.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: [Robert] Hartle. If, if I visit the Upward – it was called Upward Bound, that was the name of the summer program, Upward Bound – if I visit Upward Bound's office at all, if I go near there, I'll de-tenure you, that's what he said.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=4015.0,4035.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: In a telegram.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=4035.0,4036.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: In a telegram. On my birthday. You know, he didn't know it was my birthday. But it was by that time things disintegrated. But Washington didn't know about it. They [the administration] refused, they didn't want us to contact Washington to tell them what the problem was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=4036.0,4059.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Well, things were certainly much more, how should I say, agitated, in the late 1960s at Queens College, than for most of the years after that. That was the high point of student protest and faculty protest, period.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=4059.0,4074.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: I have a side, a side story. When I was at City College, how I finished my dissertation in three months, in the...The college received, the economics department, received stipends for 10 students. It could be research, or helpers of a faculty member, but with one requirement, that these teachers had to be on campus while the students were working.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=4074.0,4112.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: And there was, the faculty were terribly intimidated to be at City College in the summer of ’64, ’65. And so I got, I had 10 research assistants. And I had, the A-frame just came out. And so I had them copy, I had a table, I bought them lunch, I was very, you know, helped them whenever they needed anything. I gave two or three breaks alternately. And so they could, and so they loved it. And they were getting money. And not all of them, they were white and Black, they were mostly white, but there were a few Black students. Then they, they punched the cards. They, they got money. They got the data from the Census, all kinds of occupational industry data. City by city, I had...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=4112.0,4179.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: You had a whole empirical research team.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=4179.0,4180.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: I had 78 cities on my thing and they copied the information in record time onto cards and then put it in the A-frame. In three months, I accomplished two years of work. And I had the thesis, I just needed the validation. So I managed in August to finish my dissertation and sent it off to Berkeley, it was a [unclear], it was an econometric study, income among Negro males, inter-urban income differentials between Black and white urban males. So that was a benefit I got, what I call that, a racist benefit. Because the faculty was so intimidated, they didn't want to be in Harlem at that period.  And that was because they feared racial disturbance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=4180.0,4240.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: It was a different time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=4240.0,4242.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: Yes. So I'm the beneficiary of that event.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=4242.0,4247.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: And so I think we've covered most of the topics that we had agreed to talk about. Are there any, is there anything you'd like to add as a parting shot?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=4247.0,4260.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ray Franklin: No, I've been, doing this led me to a reflection of how lucky I was to have bumped into Queens College because I can't get, given the previous two experiences in college, I became, I didn't know whether I'd ever find a campus that fitted my hope and imagination. Because I did have a dream, where I would walk across campus and I'd say hi, so and so, meet students who were in my class. It was very romantic, but that was my dream, and because I also love teaching. In doing this, I realized that my dream came true for 30 years, and when I retired, I was, you know, I suppose, happy to retire, but sad that I wouldn't be... But then I retired because Sol had to retire. I probably should have stayed on for another few years because I love teaching. And so I'm very thankful for having been at Queens.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=4260.0,4334.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521/transcript/46409/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Dean Savage: Oh, that's a perfect note to go ahead and wrap this up. Thank you very much. And we'll go ahead and see where it goes from here.\n\nTRANSCRIPTION END","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/69822/file/198521#t=4334.0,4341.42041"}]}]}]}