{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/c824b2xs10/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Dottie Zellner Oral History"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eDorothy “Dottie” Zellner (born in 1938) discusses growing up in Manhattan as the daughter of immigrants in a Left, Jewish family in Manhattan. She recalls being a young child during the second World War, when Nazi hatred of Jews and the potential for Germany to attack the United States were experienced as imminent threats. Zellner discusses how McCarthyism affected her family in the late 1940s through the 1950s, and her experience at Music and Art High School, which she attended from 1951-1955. She then touches on her time at Queens College, where she became editor of The Crown newspaper and attended a youth festival in Moscow in 1957.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eThe bulk of the interview is dedicated to her time in the U.S. Civil Rights Movement, and lessons from the movement for today’s political climate. She participated in the sit-ins in 1960 and worked with the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) for five years. She discusses James Forman, Julian Bond, Rita Schwerner, Fannie Lou Hamer, and meeting her husband, Bob Zellner. She also talks about what it was like to live in the segregated south as a white Northern woman working in an interracial organization.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["http://digitalarchives.queenslibrary.org/search/browse/45770"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2019-06-10 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Tags"]},"value":{"en":["Queens College Alumni"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Audio"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Dorothy “Dottie” Zellner (Interviewee)","Bridget Bartolini (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["1938-present; bulk 1940s-1960s (temporal)","Queens, NY; Manhattan, NY; Atlanta, GA; New Orleans, LA; Mississippi; Moscow, Russia (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eDorothy \u0026ldquo;Dottie\u0026rdquo; Zellner (born in 1938) discusses growing up in Manhattan as the daughter of immigrants in a Left, Jewish family in Manhattan. She recalls being a young child during the second World War, when Nazi hatred of Jews and the potential for Germany to attack the United States were experienced as imminent threats. Zellner discusses how McCarthyism affected her family in the late 1940s through the 1950s, and her experience at Music and Art High School, which she attended from 1951-1955. She then touches on her time at Queens College, where she became editor of The Crown newspaper and attended a youth festival in Moscow in 1957.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eThe bulk of the interview is dedicated to her time in the U.S. Civil Rights Movement, and lessons from the movement for today\u0026rsquo;s political climate. She participated in the sit-ins in 1960 and worked with the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) for five years. She discusses James Forman, Julian Bond, Rita Schwerner, Fannie Lou Hamer, and meeting her husband, Bob Zellner. She also talks about what it was like to live in the segregated south as a white Northern woman working in an interracial organization.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/111/014/small/Screenshot_%2848%29.png?1617096319","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - Dottie_Zellner_Volume_stabalized.mp3"]},"duration":6004.36258,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/111/014/small/Screenshot_%2848%29.png?1617096319","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/111/014/original/Dottie_Zellner_Volume_stabalized.mp3?1617032507","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":6004.36258,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Full Interview Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: OK, so this is Bridget Bartolini with Dorothy Zellner. It is June 10, 2019. How are you, Dorothy?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1.0,9.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Fine. And you?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=9.0,11.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Good. Thank you so much for agreeing to do the interview. I guess if we can start by telling us about your early life experiences and where you grew up --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=11.0,25.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: You have to qualify. I can't tell you all my life experiences. In what way?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=25.0,28.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Okay, so where and when were you born?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=28.0,33.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Okay, so I was born January 14th, 1938, and the first apartment that my parents took me to as an infant was on East 12th Street, 12th Street between Second and Third. And then at some point in my early childhood, I actually don't know when, they moved to 18th Street and Second Avenue. My father was a dentist, and we all lived -- and his office was -- in the basement of an apartment on Second Avenue between 18th and 19th Street. And that's where I grew up until I was 13. And then my parents bought a building, a brownstone. And just whoever listens to this will understand about real estate values -- they bought a brownstone that I think was from 1830 or something, and they bought it in 1951 for $25,000.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=33.0,97.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Wow.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=97.0,97.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And they had a 17-year mortgage, and it took them 17 years to pay off that mortgage. So when I say that my father was a dentist people think, \"Oh, Park Avenue, money rolling in,\" but it was not like that. It was actually a mom and pop shop. My mother acted as his assistant-slash-secretary in the first two rooms of the apartment, and the five of us -- I have a brother and a sister -- we lived in the back three rooms. So, I like to qualify that because then people think it's kind of odd that I turned out the way I did. If my father had been on Park Avenue, it would have been. That would have been odd.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=97.0,141.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So, I'm a native New Yorker. My parents are both immigrants. My father's people came from Lithuania to England -- he was born in England -- to Canada, to the United States. My mother was born in Kiev, which now is considered to be the Ukraine, but she never called it the Ukraine, she called it Russia for her entire life. As a babe in arms, six months old, to Toronto, and they met in Canada. And then they both, at different times, came to the United States. They were naturalized citizens. And I sort of like to explain the trajectory because most Jewish people who are American citizens, if they don't have that kind of pathway in their immediate past, they have it in their distant past by great-grandfathers, or great-grandmothers, at least, except for the German Jews who came in the 19th century before the Civil War. But the vast number of people came after the turn of the 20th century. And my parents were in that group. My father was the only one who went to college, of six children, and the others were sort of lower middle class-slash-working class people.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=141.0,235.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: I grew up in a left home. I'm called a \"red diaper baby.\" And that's an expression I don't know if you're familiar with. What it means is that the children of people whose parents were either in the Communist Party, or around the Communist Party, near the Communist Party, and to this day, I don't exactly know for sure if either of my parents -- I suspect they were, because by the time I was a teenager, we were in the dreaded McCarthy days. And that's really what I'd like to talk about most of all because, you know, the memory, the living memory of those days has failed.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=235.0,277.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: My parents believed that the Russian revolution was a new step in the evolution of the human race, and that societies did not have to be based on the profit motive, which we of course think is natural. You know, with your baby's milk, you want to be an individual as you want to make profit, make money, buy things and stuff. And the Russian revolution was an abrupt change in that. For the first time in human history, there was a society that was organized not on the principle of profit, but on the principle of collective good. Now, the fact is that they didn't do a good job of working it out, but at the time people didn't understand that and didn't know that. And I think even if they had understood it and known it, they still would have bought in for the experiment. The experiment. That's very important, I think, for young people to know: things don't have to be like this, the things that we just take for granted are not necessarily foreordained. We can behave in another way, we can organize our lives in another way.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=277.0,359.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So they were very faithful to this experiment, and throughout their lives, they were faithful to the Soviet Union. And my father died before the Soviet Union split up. He would have been very much depressed, I'm sure, by that. My mother was alive and she wasn't so depressed. I think she was probably more realistic than he was.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=359.0,390.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: We grew up in a household that was not -- it was Jewish, very Jewish, but not in the least bit religious. So that's another thing I think that people should understand. You can be Jewish and not religious. It is not just a religion. It is a culture. We would say it is a people. Now, we can get into the definitions and wrangle back and forth, but there are several million of us. Then I would say, even in Israel, which I have a lot of criticisms about, there are secular Jews who do not go to synagogue, are not religious, and they consider themselves Jewish. Obviously they are Jewish citizens in Israel. But we were very Jewish.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=390.0,441.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And so the Second World War, I remember I was seven when the war was over. And I actually remember my mother hanging black curtains over the windows in the air raid drills. And I like to tell this to young people because it was actually a living threat. It wasn't just something over there, over there. It was something that could be here. And if you study World War II and what happened, it was conceivable that Hitler could've won. It was not necessarily foreordained that he was gonna lose. So when the airway wardens -- I guess they came around, I don't know how they did it. That's in some books somewhere, no doubt. But they said, you know, \"lights out\" to all the -- there had to be curtains over the windows. And the assumption was that if planes were going to come to attack us, I guess if the British had not held out and the Germans had made the UK a landing base, then it was easy peasy for them to come across the Atlantic. New York is right here on the harbor. So this was a realistic thing. This was not just flight of fancy. And of course we were Jewish.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=441.0,519.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: My father was, you know, he hated the Nazis with a passion. And we were just talking about it the other day, my brother and I; my father called them \"Nazi swine!\" And he would rage and rant and carry on. So I remember all of that from being a very, very young child. And it was, I suppose, in my imagination, that they weren't far away. You know, they could be -- there was a menace, let's put it that way. A menace. Then of course, when the concentration camp opened, I don't know if my parents had heard rumors about it, but certainly when they were open and the Times covered it, that was starting in January of 1945. That's when I was seven. So that was a nightmare. Yeah, that was a total nightmare.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=519.0,576.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And the family lore is that there was a book that had been written prior to 1945, which was called \"the black book.\" And it had pictures of what had been done to the Jews and the concentration camps that had been liberated by that point. And I throw the book away in the garbage, because I was the oldest of three. I was very -- what's the word -- protective of my young sibs. So I threw the book away. Now, the only interesting thing about this is that my mother was furious with me, that I threw a book away. Which is, I think very instructive of the kind of culture that I came up. She said, \"You never throw a book away! No matter what it says, you never throw a book away.\" So that's what sticks with me, you know? And my brother told me just this weekend, actually, that he told my mother, he said, \"Oh, she did it to protect us.\" He seemed to know, you know, he was just a little kid. But that's not what stuck with her. It was that I threw a book away. That was really important.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=576.0,652.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So anyway, I grew up -- I can't say that we had a whole ton of black friends. I don't think we did. There were certainly no black people who lived where we lived, that I can remember. There were lots of other nationalities. The babysitter that we had came from Albania. I mean, there were Italians around, Albanians. I tell people that growing up, well into my teenage years, the only time I ever saw a woman in a sari was if she worked for the UN. There were virtually no South Asians. Actually, when I was a teenager in the fifties, that's when huge numbers of Puerto Ricans started coming from the islands. And that made the city much more diverse than it was.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=652.0,700.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: I think black people were pretty much trapped in Harlem, and maybe a few other neighborhoods. But where we grew up, it was not a ritzy neighborhood because we lived one block from the el. There was an elevated train on Third Avenue. Did you know that?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=700.0,718.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Mmhm.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=718.0,718.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: A lot of people don't realize that there even was one. And this train what came up through the Bowery. And the Bowery was famous. This is where the drunks were, the homeless and the drunks. So the only characteristic of this neighborhood in Manhattan was that there were tons of hospitals around, and they all had blood banks, and the alcoholics would go into the blood banks and sell their blood. And then they would go to the nearest liquor store and buy liquor, and then they would pass out on the streets. So this was not exactly a ritzy neighborhood \n[laughs].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=718.0,756.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: I now know that almost immediately after World War II, McCarthyism started, even without McCarthy. I happen to know, because I've done some research on this, that in 1946 Winston Churchill made his famous iron curtain speech. So it was already only a year after the war was over. There were warning signs about coming conflict between the West and Soviet Union -- the then-Soviet Union. And it affected us in a very direct way, because we knew people who were in the Communist Party. And by 1949, some of them had been arrested. And in 1951, others were arrested. And one of the people who was arrested was a man whose family we were very close to, who lived in our building. So even though we weren't personally touched -- I mean, my father, my parents were never arrested or anything -- we knew people who were. And so it was personal, close and personal.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=756.0,836.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So it was an age -- I realize now that there was no rest for the weary, you know, right away, people had to gear up again. So it affected us in a lot of ways. Like, I was not forthcoming about who I was and what I believed. There were certain verbal conventions in those days. You never said the word \"capitalism.\" You said the word \"democracy.\" So you'd say, \"The struggle in the world is between communism and democracy,\" or \"socialism and democracy.\" If you said the word capitalism in your high school class, you were immediately marked as a red. There were other little linguistic betrayals. The country at large never said \"China.\" So you're in a generation where you say \"China.\" They said, \"Red China.\" It was like one word: RedChina. RedChina. Well, those of us who actually read, we never said Red China. We said, China. If you didn't say “Red China,” your language gave you away.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=836.0,920.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Then you sounded sympathetic?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=920.0,921.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Yes. You sounded sympathetic. Now why that convention should've been, it was bizarre. Totally bizarre. And of course, if you raised certain issues, you were definitely suspect. I remember in high school when we had a substitute teacher -- I went to Music and Art High School -- and he evidently said something, you know, the way that people say about the Nazis, \"Well, at least they made the trains run on time.\" You've heard that expression. Well, he said something about, \"Well, at least slavery, people were fed and housed.\" And I remember one of the young red children jumped up and took him on. So that of course made her a pariah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=921.0,968.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So I'm compressing a lot into a short period of time. I started high school in 1951. 1951 was already near the height of the McCarthy period. I graduated from high school in 1955. And one of the things that happened when we were in high school was that we -- I think the seniors, if I remember correctly, had some say over who would be their graduation speaker. And there were a group of us who wanted to invite \n[J. Robert] Oppenheimer, who was a famous atomic scientist, who was a liberal lefty guy. And that caused such a commotion with the administrators, they almost passed out cold. And now I'm thinking about it, here this was an atomic scientist, who actually, I think he had worked on the bomb, but he had foresworn the use of atomic weapons. So right away that made him on the left, that made him suspect.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=968.0,1036.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Thinking about my high school days, there was a class of 500 at Music and Art in my class, which graduated some very famous people. In my mind it was very diverse. Well, I looked in the yearbook and of the 500 students, 50 were black. 50. And I think I probably put in Latinos also, in that. So in my mind it was very diverse. It wasn't very diverse. Of course now they're finding out with the specialized high schools that this probably is a large number. Isn't that ironic now?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1036.0,1079.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: It's even worse today.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1079.0,1079.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Even worse. Yes. So, but it wasn't really very good. But there was an NAACP. I joined the NAACP. And even though we didn't have too many black people in our close lives, we had them in our general lives. And that was one of the things that we were brought up with, that racism was horrible. And it was always connected to the fact that we were Jewish, that we should know what had happened to people, what could happen to us. How could we not care about what happened to other people?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1079.0,1116.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And, you know, my father read The Daily Worker, the communist newspaper, and he read The Nation, and he read PM the newspaper; he read five newspapers a day. And I actually was very unusual in the sense that even as a young college student, I actually knew who Harriet Tubman was. I actually knew the words to Lift Every Voice and Sing, which was then called, and is still called, the Negro National Anthem. And I was taught to stand. And to this day, if I'm anywhere and they play that music, I stand. So we had certain -- oh, and my father treated veterans of the Spanish Civil War. There was one veteran who came, who was blind. Do you know what the Spanish Civil War is? The Spanish Civil War took place in 1936. It was when the people elected a legal left-wing government after the King had abdicated. And the right-wing generals performed a coup --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1116.0,1189.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: In Spain?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1189.0,1189.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: In Spain. A horrible civil war, vicious civil war, with the Nazis and Mussolini helping the coup makers, and the Communist Party and the left in general helping the people of Spain and their legally elected government. And there were volunteers who came from the United States to fight in that war on the side of the elected government. When they came home, there were many veterans who were injured. And one was blind. I remember him. And my father treated him.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1189.0,1227.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So that's what I mean. This was the center of -- we were brought up, to say the words \"America first\" was a scandal. Those words would never come out of our mouths. Never. First of all, never are we going to be first. We have to be with people. We can't be first. The idea of being first is loathsome to me this very day. And it's loathsome I'm sure to a lot of other people, but they don't know the history of this. So we never said -- the idea of immigrants dying at the border because they can't get in is to me -- you know, when 9/11 happened, my first thought was, I hope they didn't go into the Statue of Liberty, because that really meant something to me. Oh, I have to warn you that I get weepy at times, can't help it \n[laughs]. So, we grew up caring. We cared about this stuff. This was not just something that had nothing to do with this. You know, when people were lynched in the South, we didn't know what to do about it, we didn't have much to do about it, but we cared about it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1227.0,1303.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: How often did that happen?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1303.0,1305.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Lynching?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1305.0,1307.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Yeah. In your lifetime.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1307.0,1307.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Oh, my lifetime? Well, the lynching museum, which I just went to last November, which is called the Legacy Museum in Montgomery -- I think lynchings went until 1952. So it was my whole life, up until 1952. I was 14. We should check that on Google. I mean, it was certainly in my lifetime, absolutely in my lifetime. And some of the worst lynchings that ever happened were after World War II, when black soldiers came back and the white people considered them to be, you know, uppity, and that they weren't minding their station in life. So that was all in the newspapers that we read. I mean, all of it was -- we were engaged, let's say. I'm talking about my sister and brother and I, we were engaged. That doesn't mean we all reacted in the same way and that our life paths were the same. They're not. But we were engaged. We were expected to be engaged. It was, well, this is who we are, who you are. Of course you care.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1307.0,1375.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: I remember actually telling my father's friends -- my father was a maniac about bridge. He played bridge every week. And I remember coming in one time when they were playing bridge and they were taking a break and I said, \"You know, my teacher\" -- this was probably 1954. I said, \"My teacher says that we have nothing to do with Vietnam.\" And one of my father's bridge partners, he listened to what I said. Then the next week he brought me a clipping from the New York Times, which said the United States is supporting the French in their fight in Vietnam. You know, the French were in Vietnam first. So I took that clipping into class. And I said to the teacher, \"Actually, this is what happened.\" Of course, it was in the New York Times, so that was irreproachable. So that's what I did when I was 15. That's what I'm saying. We were expected to be engaged.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1375.0,1443.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And then we were very engaged when the Rosenbergs were killed. If you don't know about that case, you can fill it in, but it's the case of a young Jewish couple who were charged with being spies for the Soviet Union and giving them atomic weapons, and both were executed. And they left two young sons behind. An execution, which was actually, I think, 60 years ago, 60-something years ago, um, 1953. And it was an execution that could never have taken place today. Never. Based on the absolutely flimsy evidence, and the fact that the wife Ethel Rosenberg had nothing to do with this, but was used as a pawn to pressure her husband into confessing. And he wouldn't. That was a big issue growing up. That was when I was in high school. So I was 15 then. No, maybe that was 1951. I was 13. I was young. I was young. We went to Washington, we demonstrated in Washington. So already I had been in May Day parades and demonstrating, but I don't want to say that I was the most active kid. If you talk to some of these red diaper babies, I mean, they spent their lives on picket lines and everything.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1443.0,1528.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: So your whole family would go to demonstrations together?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1528.0,1528.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Often. Yes, yes, yes. I actually don't -- my father would often be working, so my mother would be going. So that's the kind of environment I came from. So I went to Music and Art High School. Then I went to Queens College.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1528.0,1547.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So now we come to Queens College. So it took me -- they were very kind, and I went through all of these old issues of the newspaper \n[The Crown, Queens College’s student newspaper], and it looks like it took me about eight or nine months to get involved in the newspaper. And I thought in retrospect that I was putting much under the radar, but I wasn't actually \n[laughs]. I was the one who wrote a story about Langston Hughes when he -- do you know who Langston Hughes is? The black poet -- when he came to speak at Queens College, I wrote about that. And I wrote about another article about black people having problems in housing. So I wasn't undercover. You know, I was sort of out there. But nothing happened to me. People treated me quite well. I can't say that anybody said anything to me.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1547.0,1597.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And in 1957, when I was 19, I went to Moscow in the first big group of Americans who went to Moscow. And we went to the youth festival, which is something that the Russians put on. When I came back, there were articles written about me in The Crown, that I had been to Moscow. So for those days, that was quite, you know, sort of quite out there. So despite all of this, I managed to become editor. And when it was my logical turn, I was not chosen. Somebody else was chosen. I was very crushed. But when my turn did come, and I was the editor in the fall of 1958. Then I was the editor.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1597.0,1648.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Can you tell me more, first, about the trip to Moscow? You said you were in the first group that went.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1648.0,1654.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Yeah. Oh, it was fabulous \n[laughs].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1654.0,1658.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: So, Americans were not allowed to travel there then?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1658.0,1660.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Americans, in their passports there was an advisory from the State Department. Now, it didn't say you are absolutely forbidden, but it advised not going. You were forbidden to go to certain other countries like China, “Red China.” But I didn't. Some of the people that I was with from Moscow went to China, but I didn't go to China. And actually the reason I didn't go to China was that I wanted to be editor of the paper. That's why. They thought that was very strange. I could've had a free trip to China.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1660.0,1697.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Who organized that trip?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1697.0,1700.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: It was organized here locally, and no organization, actually I happened to know, it was individuals who organized it and they would -- of course the Russians were delighted to have Americans, you know, delighted. And, oh, it was colossal. I can't even begin to tell. I mean, there were 30,000 people under the age of 30 in Moscow \n[for the youth festival]. I mean, the Russians must've been pulling their hair out, but the opening day was, um, there was in a stadium packed of about 60,000 people, and each national delegation marched in. And of course the theme of the whole thing was peace and friendship. Now, \"peace and friendship\" in the Cold War, that was already on the left. The only people who were saying that were leftists and liberals. The people on the right were saying \"armament and deterrence.\" And so to this day, I know those words in Russian. Mir i druzhba. Druzhba is friendship, and mir is peace. Mir i druzhba. And so, you know, the Japanese marched in, everybody went wild. But when we marched in -- and of course we looked unbelievably raggedy taggedy, there were 150 of us, and we had the flag. When they saw the American flag, oh my God, did people go wild! There's a picture of me actually that appeared in Pravda \n[a major Soviet newspaper], in the newspapers, that I could probably find somewhere.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1700.0,1805.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: How did the numbers of Americans compare to the number of other --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1805.0,1808.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Oh, the other side, hundreds and hundreds. Oh yes. And some of them had identical clothing and uniforms, and they had put a lot of time and effort and money, because some of their local organizations, their local left organizations had done. But that didn't happen here. Oh no, that was tremendous. So, I didn't try to hide it at all. When I came back, there was an article in my very own paper. I don't know if I cut out, if there's a copy of that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1808.0,1838.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Is the nature of this article an exposé?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1838.0,1841.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: No, no. It's very factual, that I went and what I said, some quotes from me. I just looked at it when I was at Queens College.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1841.0,1850.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Were people at Queens College supportive of your decision to go there, or was it scandalous or --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1850.0,1854.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Well, I think a sort of horrible hush came over everybody, but I \n[laughs] -- I didn't have anybody rushing up to me and saying, \"You dirty red\" and pushing me around. I think people were looking. But considering the times, I think it was actually pretty good. You know, I don't know if you could say it was accepted, but nobody rejected me on the newspaper. They probably thought I was strange. I'm sure they thought I was strange. And still, the Red Scare was going on during that whole time that I was in school. It only started to decline in the sixties. And it declined in the sixties basically because some of the people who had been subpoenaed to testify at these investigating committees just refused to cooperate anymore. And now that I think that all of these people are defying subpoenas, I really am amazed, because in our day you didn't defy a subpoena. If an investigating committee was going to call you and ruin your life, you still went. You went.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1854.0,1929.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And I personally know two people who went to jail for a year because they took the first amendment and refused to -- see in those days, they wanted to know what you believed. Now, you know, the whole, the standards are different. \"Are you a member of,\" \"do you believe in this\"? Spending valuable taxpayer money on that? I mean, there was no -- If you had evidence of a dangerous conspiracy, arrest people and go through the legal process. But it was all shaming. Public shaming. That's what it was. And now I'm looking at television and there's \n[Jerrold] Nadler, he's sending out subpoenas and they're ignoring them. They act like they don't even exist. It's making me mad. Here we went to jail. We played by the rules and we went to jail. And now people are just ignoring these subpoenas. Double standards, double standards.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1929.0,1987.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So it won't come as any surprise that when the sit-ins started, I went South. Right? Is that a surprise? No. And you've been reading about me, so you know what happened pretty much after that. Your listeners should know that I went South first in June of 1960, which was five months after the sit-ins started. And I should say parenthetically that I've always thought that the sit-ins, which started on February 1st, 1960, that that date should be our national holiday. I actually thought even more so than Dr. King, because though that event started -- well, I shouldn't say started -- re-kindled the civil rights movement in an absolutely amazing way. So, I went. By then I had graduated from college. I graduated in January of 1960. The very next month the sit-ins started, and I had a succession of jobs, which I left in a second.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=1987.0,2057.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And so I went to a workshop that was sponsored by the Congress of Racial Equality in Miami. We all did a sit-in at a segregated restaurant, and I was arrested. And then I went on with the group to New Orleans and they were planning the first sit-in, in New Orleans. By that time, I was in love with the South. I said, \"Oh, this is for me.\" So it won't come as any surprise to you that I, who had grown up on the war and had grown up reading books about the Warsaw ghetto, the Jewish rebellion against the Nazis, and who had all of these very romantic ideas, found myself in the middle of this huge movement that was starting. Who knew?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2057.0,2117.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: I came home and I said, \"Oh, I got to get back down there.\" So I spent all year trying to get a job. I was not brave enough to just take a suitcase and just arrive. Later on when I was an actual staff member, I noticed that a lot of people did that. A lot of people got in the car and just went. I never did that. I had, by a peculiar fluke, I got a job in Atlanta. And that was in June of 1961. The only reason I got a job was that the person who hired me had been a professor at Queens College, and he was black and his contract had not been renewed. And he had come to speak to me as the editor of the newspaper about this.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2117.0,2172.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Did you write about that in the paper?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2172.0,2174.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Well, he didn't want it to be written about. But I was prepared to write about, sure. So, he knew that I was okay, you know, at least on race things. He was looking for a research assistant and he hired me. So there I went. I packed a trunk. My mother helped me pack. We put sheets in it, all kinds of things, like I was going to set up house. I didn't even know if I was going to stay there two months, but I went down there as if I was going to stay forever. Which I did! I actually almost did. So there I was in the South. This was really interesting. I was working for an interracial organization on the white side of town. I was now in totally segregated territory, and I was working with black people, but they could not come to my house during the daytime, cause I lived on the white side and it would raise a lot of suspicions and I would get evicted, the thought went, if I invited them. So I did invite them, but I did it at night. So after dark people came to the house, and it wasn't such a big deal.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2174.0,2253.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: But it would have been if they were seen, right?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2253.0,2255.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Oh yes, I would have been evicted. Everything was segregated. And as I have given innumerable lectures -- I've been lecturing for 25 years already -- when people think of segregation, they think of Mrs. \n[Rosa] Parks and the buses, but they don't realize that the doctors' offices were segregated. All the restaurants were segregated. The department stores were segregated. The dentist's offices were segregated. Literally, your race determined your entire day, from the minute you woke up to the minute you went to bed. My favorite example, and the one that seems the most potent to people, is if you were a middle class, black woman -- and there were many in Atlanta, they had a healthy, or relatively healthy, black middle class -- and you went to Rich's Department Store, which was the equivalent to Macy's, and you bought a $400 dress, you couldn't try it on. No try-on facilities for black women. So the subtext of that is so humiliating. So demeaning. If you try on a dress, it's tainted, it's contaminated. So you had to take that dress home. It could look horrible on you. It could not fit. If you bought it, it was yours.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2255.0,2337.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: And you couldn't return it?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2337.0,2338.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Could not return it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2338.0,2339.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Cause it was tainted.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2339.0,2339.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Yes, exactly. And that's the example that seems to stick most with people.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2339.0,2346.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: But, stores were not segregated? Some of them must've been, but, like, black people and white people could walk in to the store and buy the same things?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2346.0,2353.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Oh yes. Oh yes. You could stand up and be integrated. The bathrooms were segregated. There were no dressing rooms for black people, and no sit down eating facilities. There was a thing about sitting down, sitting down next to somebody, but that made no sense either because some babies had been raised by black women who had even wet nursed them. So what was the big thing?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2353.0,2382.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: I experienced myself the difference when I lived on the white side and I ordered a telephone. I called the phone company and I went to tell them. \"Oh yes, Ms. Miller\" -- that was my name, Miller -- \"you know, we'll be out on such and such a date,\" and they fixed the telephone. So within six months I moved in with -- I had a black roommate, and she is the sister of Julian Bond. She and I lived together for a year and a half altogether. So I moved in with her, and I called and I said, \"I want a telephone.\" \"Oh, alright, Dorothy.\" So segregation wasn't just -- it was, you weren't called \n[by your last name], no honorific. You were called by your first name.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2382.0,2431.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And the worst thing that ever happened -- when I said this in front of an audience of black people, I mean, people were shocked. The worst thing was, one day I was walking along in Atlanta, in a residential neighborhood, and towards me came an elderly black person, probably younger than I am today. A man. And he took off his hat and stepped into the curb to let me go by. And I remember standing there being dumbfounded. I didn't know what to do. I mean, I didn't know. I didn't know what to say to him. And if I had even said something to him, he might've thought I was truly crazy. You know? I wasn't going to correct him and say, \"Don't you dare step down on the gutter for me.\" Or, \"Why are you doing that?\" I knew perfectly well why he was doing that. I should have said, \"I'm sorry. I beg your forgiveness.\" That's what I should've done. But I didn't think, I just thought about that right now. I just should've said, \"I beg your forgiveness.\" Whoever heard of being in a place where an older person is going to step off into the street with the cars coming, because this young white thing is walking along? I mean, really, how dehumanizing is that?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2431.0,2511.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So, I saw it all around. I saw it all around. And when I was in New Orleans, I sat in the back of the trolley. New Orleans was also totally segregated, completely, but in New Orleans, because there was a Creole tradition and a lot of light skinned black people and the French influence, they thought I was black. So nobody even bothered. I would sit in the back and I knew people thought I was black. But you see, that's the other thing about race. I mean, I hadn't changed my color, but they had changed because they could not conceive of the fact that a white person would be voluntarily sitting in the back. So I had to be black. That's what racism does to people. It makes them crazy. It makes their brains stop functioning properly. So then I got involved in SNCC. Happy day, happy day. And I was there, worked for five years for SNCC.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2511.0,2572.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: How did you first get involved with SNCC?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2572.0,2573.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Okay. But you're not going to have me go through my entire life story with them, because are you looking at the time here? Cause I'm only up to when I was 24 \n[laughs]. It'll take another three years to get through.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2573.0,2588.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Yes. We don't have to go linearly.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2588.0,2593.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Well, the way I got involved was, I was working at this other organization living on the white side of town. And I knew my job was -- the director asked me to write a statistical report about the sit-in movement for the first year and a half of the sit-in movement. What he actually meant was that I was gonna sit there and clip newspaper clippings and make some sort of primitive research of the first year and a half, which I did. And it consisted of me reading thousands of newspapers and just adding up how many people got arrested in various places and what happened to them.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2593.0,2632.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So I happened, while I was reading, to read all about these mysterious people in SNCC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. They were going here and they were going there, and I began to, \"Who are they? Who are they?\" And everybody said, \"Oh, you have to go over to SNCC.\" SNCC was like a 10 minute walk, a 20 minute walk. I was too shy. I said, \"Oh no. How can I go over there?\" Here, they are these great heroes. And here I am, I'm sitting there, little white, Miss New Yorker, you know? And so I pushed it off.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2632.0,2662.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: I started working in June. In October -- June, July, August, September, October -- four months later, a Danish journalist came to the office where I was working, and he wanted to go. He said, \"Oh, I want to go over to SNCC office. Will you go with me?\" So I said, \"Okay.\" So then I had to go.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2662.0,2685.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: You had your invitation.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2685.0,2688.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So I went over there and the very first person I met was Jim Forman, who was the great, wonderful, fabulous Executive Director of SNCC. I'll show you his picture up on the wall. And he stuck out his hand, and, \"I'm Jim Forman.\" I said, um, I guess I said, \"I'm Dottie Miller.\" That's what I called myself then. He said, \"Can you type?\" So this exchange became fodder later on for the Women's Movement, as an example of the hideous sexism in the Civil Rights Movement. That was the first question that he asked me. I, however, never felt that way. I was thrilled that he asked me could I type, and moreover I was super thrilled that I could type! Because what else was I going to do? I had a skill. They needed the skill. I was in heaven. Since I have spoken at such great length about my upbringing, this is not a surprise, this wouldn't come as a surprise to you.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2688.0,2756.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: A couple of months later, I said to him, \"And Jim, I can also write.\" And this is why he was not a sexist. He said, just like that, \"I'll put you to work with Julian Bond.\" And Julian and I worked together in the communications department. He was the Communications Director. He was my goombah. You know, there were two people I loved more than anything. That was Jim Forman and Julian Bond. I was just in -- you know what, I don't know who's gonna listen to this, but in the South they say, \"I was like a pig in shit.\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2756.0,2796.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And then of course along came the man who was going to be my husband \n[laughs] who I met also. And now he was an interesting case because I had read about him when I was clipping the newspapers. And it said, this person Bob Zellner has been arrested here and there, and here and there. And he's white. And I looked at his name and I said, \"What is a Jewish boy doing wandering around in the South?\" But he wasn't Jewish. He was the son of a minister. So here I, the Jew, if I had kept my maiden name, people wouldn't -- Miller isn't necessarily a Jewish name, but Zellner has always been taken as a Jewish name. Even when I went to Israel, many times, they never questioned that Zellner wasn't a Jewish name. So I met him in the spring of '62, and we were married in August of '63.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2796.0,2856.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And then, to close this out, we ultimately spent five years working with SNCC. We were in Mississippi for the summer of '64. I did recruiting for the summer of '64. I recruited for the whole Northeast region of SNCC. This is why people like Mark Levy and other people, why I am indelibly engraved in their memory, because they had to pass through me to get down there.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2856.0,2889.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: I had an interview partner, a woman who was the daughter of the famous black psychologist, Kenneth Clark. He was the one who did the doll test in Brown vs Education. For people that don't know that who are listening, he did experiments with young black children and gave them black dolls and white dolls, and the young black children, even at tiny ages of two and three, preferred the white dolls. They knew already that they were inferior, or they knew that people were treating them as inferior people. And that exhibit was part of the Supreme Court case. So his daughter, Katie, and I were the interviewers. And we were very tough. We were tough. You know, because we didn't want nutcases to go down there and everything. So people have actually come up to me 50 years later, people I don't even remember, and they said, \"Oh my God, you gave him the hardest interview ever!\" \n[Laughs] So I'm a little shocked, but I'm also pleased, because that's what we were determined to do.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2889.0,2962.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: How did your toughness manifest in the interviews?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2962.0,2965.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Oh, well, first of all, we told them, \"Are you ready to be killed? I mean, you may be killed.\" And they actually, in that film about Freedom Summer, which -- uh, I can't think of who made that, it was on television a couple of years ago -- they have a film of me actually interviewing somebody, and I'm asking them -- you know, but we ask them other questions. Like the question I asked in the film, which I had forgotten about, is, \"What will you do if you get down there and somebody wants you to type up index cards the whole summer? What will you do?\" So of course the guy was smart enough to say, \"Well, I'd be happy to type up index cards,\" but there were some people who said no. We said, \"You're not going.\" They didn't go.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=2965.0,3011.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And we said, \"Will you be prepared to go to church?\" If they refused to go to church, they didn't go. And meanwhile, I was sitting there an atheist, but we knew that if you were not respectful in the black community, if you were not respectful in the black church, you were not gonna get anywhere. And I think one of the questions I asked, you know, \"What if you feel like wearing shorts to church?\" Those are the kinds of things. We wanted to make sure that they would behave. We didn't want people to cut up down there and you know, to either be divas. Cause we knew where they would be living. They would be living with the poorest possible people. And that movie is really, it's a good retelling of that story. That was a colossal organizing -- that was one of the best organizing efforts I was ever in. In six months we, I mean, as an organization, SNCC arranged for the logistics for a thousand people to stay two months in the South. And there were no hotels. Hello, no hotels. We couldn't afford it. And they wouldn't have had black people there. So they stayed with the poorest of the poor people.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3011.0,3090.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And of course, three of them were killed \n[James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner]. You know, that's when the three were killed. Now I had met Andy, I think I met him, like I said, \"Hello, Queens College,\" \n[Andrew Goodman also attended Queens College] and I walked on. I didn't have any relationship with him. But when they were actually killed and they disappeared, I got friendly with Rita Schwerner, and I'm friendly with her to this day, almost 60 years later. And she taught me a life lesson, which has stayed with me ever since: she taught me how to behave as a white person.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3090.0,3127.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: All the cameras were coming over to her. The bodies hadn't been found, but everybody knew that they were dead, and the cameras came over and they asked her this question, they're still asking you today, almost 60 years later: \"How do you feel?\" You know, \"Here, your husband is missing. How do you feel?\" And it would just make me crazy, because what was she supposed to say? \"Oh, I feel terrific. My husband may be dead, laying out there somewhere.\" You know, what is that question? And it goes on today. You know, anybody who's had a catastrophe, \"How do you feel, Mrs. Smith, that your daughter burned up in the attic?\" You know?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3127.0,3166.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So they came at her with that question and she said -- and that's on camera too -- basically what she said was, \"If my husband were black, you would not even be asking me this question.\" And they tried it again, and she'd say it again. And she would not play. And here she was three days a widow. She didn't even know for sure she was a widow. But she knew. And here she had the presence of mind to say that. So that to me, I've talked about that ever since, that was in 1964, this is now verging on 2020. And that's the way a white person behaves. This is the way you acknowledge that you have privilege. There's no point in saying you don't have privilege. You do have privilege. As I pointed out to speakers about a year ago, he said, \"Well, what privilege do I have? I have always worked in a factory.\" I said, \"Nobody tried to shoot you in the back.\" Hello. That's a big privilege. That's big privilege. So we have to recognize that we have the privilege.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3166.0,3232.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Then the question is, what do you do with it? And she did the right thing. She did the right thing. And they covered her saying that. But then they lost interest in her because she wouldn't cooperate. So I watched them, they just sort of, oh, shrugged and wandered away.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3232.0,3248.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Looking back, oh my God, the people that I've met have been unbelievable people. And that's the other lesson that we're left with, is that this person that you are riding on in the elevator may be Mrs. \n[Fannie Lou] Hamer. Why not? And that people have unbelievable power. They just don't know that have it. That's all. They don't know it. Then it burst out, like after Trump was elected and the Women's March, that was a moment when power poked its head out, when all these women looked around and saw each other \n[laughs]. I was totally amazed. I was amazed, an old pro like me.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3248.0,3295.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Did you attend the Women's March?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3295.0,3298.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Yes. Oh, I attended it here. I didn't go to DC. But this was -- I got on the bus on 96th Street with my daughter, and I got on the bus. I didn't know anything about these pussy hats or anything. I didn't know. And I got on the bus, the regular crosstown 96th Street bus. Half the bus were women wearing these pink hats. I said, \"Oh! This is something new! This is new\" \n[laughs]. And for weeks afterwards, they were wearing hats on the street. That was only a tiny glimpse of what people could do. They have no idea that they can do it. And I've told these kids, I've told audiences for years, 50 people in New York City who sat down and knew what to do and worked out a plan, they could change the whole city. No doubt in my mind. Because I saw it happen. I saw it happen. SNCC started out, there were 16 staff members in 1961. 16 people. And in five years, of course, they ended up with hundreds of people, and they mobilized thousands of people. But in the end of five years, by 1965, they had done in five years what the previous 80 had not done. And there's just no question. I mean, it's a fact, it's not even a debatable fact. It's a fact.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3298.0,3388.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And then I was lucky enough to meet people like Mrs. Hamer. Mrs. Hamer was a sharecropper. Then she graduated to be the timekeeper on the plantation. By the way, you should know that the language is changing and that historians and others do not say \"slave\" anymore. They say \"enslaved person.\" And I'm sure there's debate about that. But one historian has advanced a change in language where he says, we should not use the word \"plantation.\" We should use the word \"slave labor camp.\" Because, you see, plantation is -- this what we grew up with, with Gone With the Wind. And the plantation is wonderful, with the columns, and the this, and Mammy, and all of that. Slave labor camp is what it was. It was what it was. So Mrs. Hamer grew up on that plantation. I have a letter here that she wrote to me, it's up on my wall. I don't know if people will know who Mrs. Hamer was.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3388.0,3455.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Would you like to say a little about her?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3455.0,3455.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Yeah. So Mrs. Hamer, as I said, worked on a plantation, a slave labor camp, if you will. And she was originally contacted, I think by Dr. King's organization. Anyway, she went to a workshop about voting rights, and on the way back, they were stopped by the police. And all of these women were horribly beaten. She was beaten within an inch of her life. Unlike many other people, that fired her up and she was then determined. She was not -- she was, she had to fight back. Nonviolently, of course. So she became very famous, and she was the one who addressed the 1964 Democratic Convention -- it's all on video and on tape. And she said, \"Is this America?\" And she described some of the things that she had gone through.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3455.0,3510.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So I said to Mrs. Hamer -- this is one of my small claims to fame -- I said to Mrs. Hamer, \"Why don't you run for office?\" So then I said to people, I said, \"You know, I was the one who suggested that she run for office,\" and they didn't believe me. So I wrote her a letter and I said, \"Mrs. Hamer, is it true that I am the first person who asked you to run for office?\" And she wrote me back this letter, which is on the wall. It says, \"Yes, you were the first person.\" \n[Laughs].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3510.0,3545.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So you meet Mrs. Hamer, this means that everything that you've been taught is wrong, because this ordinary person who may be bagging your groceries, for all you know, is a genius, or is a charismatic leader, or is a person who is so brave that people will follow them, or is anything, could be anything. Or the alternative is, the person who is bagging your groceries shows none of that, but when the time is right, will actually do some incredible thing. Like if you were black in 1964, try to register to vote. Which was akin to risking your life. It was risking your life.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3545.0,3593.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Anybody who has been in the Civil Rights Movement, we all learned that lesson. We learned that lesson that people have tremendous power. They just don't know they have power. So it's very painful to see people swallowing Trump hook, line, and sinker, because we know that they don't have to put up with that. We know that within two weeks he would be, he would have a terminal breakdown. They could turn against him, say, \"No, no, no. Now we understand who you are.\" So in a way having that knowledge is frustrating, too, because we know what people, the good that people are capable of, and the risk that they can take, that they would be willing to take. So, more questions.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3593.0,3639.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Well, why do you think that isn't happening now, with Trump?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3639.0,3642.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Well, I don't know all the answers. Everybody's -- people who are far more thoughtful about this -- I think we've been corrupted by the media. Now, I hate to blame it on the media because I'm a faithful CNN watcher, you know, but CNN, it's this horrible symbiotic relationship. They live off Trump. They would die without Trump. On the other hand, Trump may kill them. So they're in this embrace, this death embrace. And I think we have all, through our phones -- I'm not on Facebook and I'm not on Twitter, but just being on a phone and being on my email all day long -- we are getting habituated. That's what's happening to us. Like each new thing is, \"Oh my God, this can't be happening.\" And then three days later, there's another, \"Oh my God, this is even worse than what happened before.\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3642.0,3705.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: But the undercurrent of why people are supporting him is, there's no question in my mind that race plays a very big role. And men, white men play a very big role in this. I'm not saying that there aren't deluded white women. There are plenty of deluded white women. But he is playing to the old song book. The old song book is, this country comes first. It comes first because we're best, and we're best because we're white. Now, he doesn't say all of that, but he doesn't need to say that because he's saying equivalencies.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3705.0,3746.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Now I happen to think he is a 100% thoroughgoing moron, but he does have some uncanny abilities. He has certain abilities. He has no ability to read or speak the English language, but he does have an ability to know what makes a headline and to be a celebrity. So we voted in a celebrity, and the celebrity is behaving like a celebrity, and it is dulling our perception. So out there -- well, I was gonna say out there in Ohio, but actually it could be out there on the next block from here. Probably not that way, but that way \n[points]. There are people who are saying, I don't care what he does. Well, that's what they say until they -- nobody cares. His supporters don't care what he does. He's entertaining. That's what we came down to, is entertainment. So he is providing entertainment.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3746.0,3806.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And this latest scam just today is, you know, he's saying he's taking credit for threatening tariffs on Mexico, and that Mexico has agreed. But it turns out that Mexico had agreed to this weeks ago. He's a liar. And the only good thing that Bloomberg ever said was at the convention. You know, when he said, \"I'm a new Yorker and I know a con when I see one.\" So I'm hoping, I'm hoping that like everybody else, that people will wake up at the last split second and not elect him again. Also as a Jewish person, I have to say that I am afraid. If you talk about antisemitism, the antisemitism I'm afraid of is that these very same people who will wake up, will also say, \"Ah, the Jews were around him. Look at all the Jews around him. His son, I mean, his son-in-law. They made him do these things.\" I'm afraid of that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3806.0,3875.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: That's a chilling thought.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3875.0,3875.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Uh-huh. So that's what we have ahead of us. That's what we have ahead of us. Now, people are organizing all over the place. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people organizing in this country. The problem is that they're not organizing together. You know, and everybody's in their own little -- you're getting tired, I can see \n[laughs] -- in their own little area of interest, but there are hundreds of thousands. I happen to know that as a fact.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3875.0,3907.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: I certainly think people are not gonna give up without a fight. Definitely not. I'm hoping that the Democrats pull themselves together somehow. And the black community is definitely, definitely gonna fight back. Definitely. Oh no, but we have our work cut out for us. But race is still the most potent force. Now you can't say certain things, but there is this subtext, what they call the dog whistle. This is the dog whistle.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3907.0,3944.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And actually what it is, is they don't talk about this much anymore, but on television, I think in the seventies, they did subliminal advertising. Do you know what that is? Most people don't talk about it today, but that's what's happening. You know, you see several frames, you see a minute of running shots and interspersed is like one second worth of a shot. And that's what goes into your subconscious. That's what's happening also, subliminal. When he speaks, if you just look at the words, the words don't look so terrible, but there is this subliminal effect. And then of course the people that he likes, like Bannon is running around actually organizing a worldwide right wing group. So it's very serious, very, very serious what's happening now.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=3944.0,4004.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: But I consider just looking back, I mean, all the lessons that we learned in the Civil Rights Movement, go today. They're not different at all. We can look at some of the pathways that could have been taken, which would've made life a whole lot easier now, that weren't. And then some things that were decided that people, it came too easy for them and we've lost some things. I mean, if you think what Trump has undone since he's been in office, it's really staggering. Just on the environment, what he's done. And actually all of this will be all moot in the end, because if the climate, if we have 20 more years on the planet or 30 more years, I mean, that's what he's done. That's where he'll go down in history. He will actually be a murderer of the human race. This is really, I know this is serious stuff. You know, and just a few more regulations that they undo, and it looks benign, could be the deaths of -- could be when water is lapping up in your basement up here on 94th Street. Okay. More questions.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4004.0,4090.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Well, you mentioned Trump playing to the America first songbook and how \"America first\" was a phrase that you heard in your childhood. Could you tell me more about the significance of that for you?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4090.0,4107.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Well, America first, I don't know if they used it in the first world war, but they used it before the second world war. You know, America first is what I would say is actually the downfall of this country, is that because of geography and we have oceans on both sides, we actually think that we are separate from the human race and we can put up a wall here and a fence there, and we can just live as if we own the world. And we can't. And we can't. There's only one way. We all have to work out some cooperative way of relationships. That's the only alternative.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4107.0,4158.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And America first actually translates as white first, as whites first, because that's his concept of what we were. Let's make America great again, when we were white. And that's the way his followers interpret that. They'll tell you that. He can't say \"white,\" he's a little constrained. That's always, always, always been our downfall, always, was race. Always. That's how innumerable unions were broken, was don't let the black people in and hope that they'll scab on the union. If you have a multiracial union, make sure that the white people fight the black people. You know, it's always been that. The playbook is the same. It's the same. The technology is different. So people think that they've evolved to a higher state. But I'm not a person who doesn't have confidence that we can win.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4158.0,4225.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Actually, what you should do is conclude with this phrase from Howard Zinn, who wrote A People's History of the United States, and he has this wonderful phrase -- uh, I'll try to find it for you on the internet. He says, people get very depressed thinking of our failures, but we should be thinking about our successes, because our successes show the way forward. And I totally feel that way. If we had a civil rights movement in this country once, we will have one again. There is no reason to think that we won't. How could this be a unique thing? We are the same. We will have it again.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4225.0,4270.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Do you think it's coming?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4270.0,4271.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Oh, it's going to come. Absolutely. I don't know when, and I don't know if I'm going to see it, but yeah, because those are the lessons we learn, is how much power people have. We just need people to realize that they have the power, and then there's truly nothing that they can't do. I mean, when you see people who went, if they were lucky, to the second grade who would be fully capable. I mean, we had one woman who, I don't know if she ever went to the second grade. She became the mayor of a small town in Mississippi. And she had just been routinely slapped around and beaten up and arrested in her whole life. She didn't even know there was such a thing as voting. She died recently, her obituary is in the Times last week. Her name is Unita Blackwell.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4271.0,4318.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Oh no, there were fabulous things that happened. Fabulous people. They're out there. They're out there. Not only out there, they're probably -- I would point this way is where rich people live on Central Park West --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4318.0,4331.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: You're pointing to --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4331.0,4331.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: To Central Park West. They're this way, on Amsterdam Avenue \n[laughs]. It's more likely that they're on Amsterdam Avenue. Oh yes. Oh no, no, no. That doesn't mean that I don't get worried and I don't get depressed now and then. I rarely get depressed about that. I'll get depressed about other things, but not that. But I don't know any of us who were really -- this was a life lesson that we learned that carried us for life. You know, because we didn't read it. We lived it. You know, we didn't read in a book. More questions.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4331.0,4371.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Well, at the risk of sounding naive, as someone who grew up in the 1980s and 90s, in Queens, in an extremely diverse part of New York City with not many white people in the neighborhood where I grew up. And we grew up with this message of, you know, celebrating multiculturalism, that diversity is beautiful. And in my lifetime, I feel like now at this point, post-Trump, race relations seem definitely worse than they've ever been in my lifetime --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4371.0,4407.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Really?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4407.0,4407.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Yeah. It seems like --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4407.0,4411.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: You can tell, the way people deal with each other?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4411.0,4414.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Yes. It's like a lot more anger, which I don't know if it's things that were simmering, but didn't come out as much, or anger that has come to pass after all these horrible things that the administration keeps doing. I was curious if you have felt this change.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4414.0,4441.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: No. Well, I haven't felt inter-- I wouldn't, because I'm not sort of out there the way you are in the world. I mean, I work, but I work at home. You know, I'm very politically active. I didn't even go into Israel/Palestine, and I'm probably too tired to get onto that today. I don't see inter-relationships being worse, but I see people being very forthright. I mean, I have, yet -- this has been two years, two and a half years since Trump got elected, and I can strike up a discussion with any stranger in the street or on the subway, and have done it. And I'll just say, \"Oh, what did Mr. Crazy do today?\" They instantly know who I'm talking about. They start talking \n[laughs], everybody starts talking. Now, have I seen people being angrier? You mean people of color being angrier? Is that what you mean?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4441.0,4499.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: I feel like, more -- well, not necessarily more anger, but maybe more of like --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4499.0,4506.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: More of a clash --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4506.0,4507.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Or like --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4507.0,4507.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Separation.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4507.0,4508.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Or like, yeah, just to like being --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4508.0,4512.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Yeah. I don't want to hang with that person --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4512.0,4515.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Fed up with white people.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4515.0,4515.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Well, you know what, you know what? I have gotten fed up with white people.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4515.0,4519.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Yes.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4519.0,4521.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So I'm with them. Yeah. Look at what's happened in the past couple of years. I mean, really. You know, here somebody's sitting in the Starbucks, and it was actually a white woman who said they didn't do anything. They're sitting there, they're doing nothing. That didn't matter. Called the police and arrested him. I mean, so many bizarre things have happened --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4521.0,4545.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Yes, that incident was a black man was sitting in Starbucks waiting for his friends and then someone called the cops on him.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4545.0,4547.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Yes, yes. In Philadelphia or somewhere. Yes. Somebody called the cops on him. And then somebody's having a picnic and they call the cops, a barbecue. In fact, Kamau, you know that guy W. Kamau Bell, he's having some good programs, and he talked about that. And I think people are much more upfront. I think people of color are much more upfront and willing to say what's on their minds. And I think that's actually good. I mean, it may feel worse, feel harder for a white person, you know, but I think it's actually good. You know, let's cut out beating around the bush.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4547.0,4588.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: And there are actually hundreds of thousands of white people in this country who are organizing to cooperate with communities of color and to support them when they can. So I don't think, no, I haven't actually seen that. I haven't seen that. But I'm not saying it wouldn't happen. You know, because actually for a person of color, I mean, I suppose you could say, if you were religious especially, that there is an inherent good in having a friend like you, a young white woman. For a person of color who is dealing with so many issues, is that the top of their agenda? No \n[laughs]. But what it means is that if you find yourself in a situation where you will reach out to somebody, they will be very open. That's been my experience. They will be very open and, if you get along in other ways, happy to be your friend. But if that's it, you know, it never was -- there's a myth about that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4588.0,4652.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: There's a myth that the civil rights movement was about integration. It wasn't, it wasn't. I mean, this is an important thing. Put up a little star by that, so that people know. We went into a black movement. We white people were lucky that we had a place in a predominantly black movement. People did not register to vote so that you and I could sit down and have coffee with them in a restaurant. They registered to vote so they could vote out the sheriff who was killing them.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4652.0,4687.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: It wasn't about integration. It was about liberation. It was about, to use that old sixties phrase, it was about liberation. And you want to come along and you will have a role to play? Well, come on, come on. I always felt thrilled. That's what I meant. And maybe people didn't know what I meant about being thrilled to be able to type. I was thrilled. There was something I could do. It wasn't just that I was helping them. I was helping myself coming back, coming from where I came from. I was doing something that I believed in, that made life worthwhile. And they let me do it in a place where they could easily have said, \"No, everybody can be all black.\" It turned out that they did say that in the end, they said, \"We want an all black organization.\" And it made me extremely sad and upset.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4687.0,4737.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: But for the five years that we had, our five years from my vantage point as a white person, I am one of the few white people in the United States who knows what it's like to live in an egalitarian situation. And what that means is that plenty of bumps and lumps along the way, you know. Plenty of friction, racial friction, any other kind of friction, but the context is different. This is what I'm telling these young people. The context is different. If the context is, we are in a dangerous situation, you are counting on me, I am counting on you, let's let this petty shit go. That's the context that makes all the difference, all the difference.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4737.0,4784.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Can you talk more about what it is like to live in an egalitarian society?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4784.0,4789.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Well, I'll tell you from the point of view, again, as a white person, I can't speak for any black person -- for a point of view of me as a white person, and in that day and time, I tell white people it's like having a heavy 40-pound stone lifted from your back. Because white people think that their privilege makes them feel lighter. It's not! It's making them heavier. And to give all of that up is a blessing. Even though I'm not religious, I'll say that. It's a blessing. White people have no idea of this thing that they're carrying around. They're carrying around these implicit appeals of loyalty, to be loyal to the white race and to be happy when they have privilege, and to be happy when they have a right that somebody else doesn't have. When you give all of that up, oh, you're light as a bird.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4789.0,4847.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: So to me, every white person has an interest for themselves to get rid of this. Then you can be like a human being, and you're not carrying around the angst and the guilt and the powerlessness. And yes, I think I'm right. The implicit benefit, you're getting a benefit from this. I think those old time white abolitionists, who were some of the bravest people that ever lived in our country, that they were lighter. They felt lighter than any slave labor camp owner. Because he had to know, they had to know on some level, especially if they were Christians, they had to know that what they were doing was a sin. They had to know that even if -- and if you're not religious, now you have to, if you are a sensible human being, you have to know that if you have a privilege.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4847.0,4909.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: I'll tell you what my privilege is now, even as an old lady. Here, I have white hair. You point out a building, I'll get past the security. Because I am invisible. I don't exist anymore. But if I was a black woman my age, I wouldn't get past the security. So either you can take pleasure in that and say, “Oh well, you know, I got something out of it.” Or you can say, “No, this is making me sick, that I'm being treated this way.” And that's what you give up. You give up that feeling of sickness, that you have managed to profit by a pure accident of birth. A totally meaningless thing. I mean, in the list of meaningful things about the human race, the color of your hair and your eyes and your skin is meaningless. Meaningless. And somehow they have made that meaningful. But they made it meaningful for power reasons. It wasn't because this \n[points to self] was intrinsically great. This could have been the color that could have been subjugated.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4909.0,4978.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: It was power. It was who had the power. That's what it is. It's the power. So, oh, no. I think white people have a lot to benefit, a lot to benefit. Now, this doesn't mean that some people's feelings are not going to get hurt along the way, that is for sure. And it happens to me occasionally. It actually happened to me about three weeks ago. I didn't give a panhandler money in the train station. So he started yelling at me as a white woman. It makes you feel bad, you know? That's definitely gonna happen. That's gonna happen.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=4978.0,5017.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: But I think the onus is on white people to reach out. And if people are really interested in having friends and keeping those friends, it's sort of like a marriage, what they say about a marriage, you know, it's some work. There's some work. There are tremendous benefits though. Tremendous, tremendous benefits. Now, when I look around, I'll see many, many more interracial people sitting at lunch, for example. I assume a lot of them are coming from work, they're work mates. I don't know if they socialize at night together. Most people, myself included, I think most of the people I know are white. They're not necessarily the people I mostly love. Cause some of the people I mostly love are black. But you find yourself in a certain circle, depends where you live or you grew up, or what your job is.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5017.0,5085.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Every summer for the past three years, four of us have gone on a trip, and it's four of us editors from the book Hands on the Freedom Plow. You saw that book. So we go, we're all elderly by now. Two black women, two white women. So I have been looking at people who look at us. We actually go and stay at hotels very, well, you know, good hotels. We went to Charlottesville last year, and we're sitting there, we're talking, we're laughing. We're obviously together at a resort. And people, they won't stare at us, but they look. Because we're unusual. That's why. We're unusual, because you don't see that a lot. You don't see that a lot. You do see many, many more families that are interracial families, many more marriages. And as somebody, a SNCC person, pointed out to me, there are now ads that routinely show interracial marriages. And he said to me, \"There's got to be money there. There's got to be many more people. Otherwise they wouldn't have this.\" You know, this is appealing to a certain audience.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5085.0,5161.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: But if I was a black person and somebody that I knew was choked to death for selling loose cigarettes, I mean, do you think that would keep me mad for 10 years? Yes, it would. It would. And then I would have to say, this is why I understood what happened to us when SNCC became all black. You know, and then I'm supposed to say, \"Hello, Mrs. White person, I love you, come to my house.\" \n[Laughs] That's not gonna happen. That is not gonna happen. But the difference now is that I think there are significant numbers of white people who realize that. There's an organization called SURJ. Have you heard of it? Showing Up for Racial Justice. And they have mobilized thousands of white people. Thousands. I went on, I don't know how many marches for Black Lives Matter. I never was in a march that was all black, never. So I think that there are more white people who are mobilized. I hate to be talking to all of us about white people, but we have to get at the racism somehow. We have to, we have to.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5161.0,5237.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: There was this hideous program, I think it was Sunday night on Kamau Bell's show, about Milwaukee being one of the most racist cities there is in the United States. Who knew? I had no idea. Milwaukee? A huge murder rate, cops killing black people, housing problems. I had no idea. None, none, no idea. So, you know, I think the social relationships would go way down on the list of priorities.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5237.0,5273.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Yes. Understandably.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5273.0,5277.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Yeah, understandably.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5277.0,5277.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: So you were working with SNCC for five years and then they made the decision that it would be an all-black organization?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5277.0,5284.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Yeah. That decision is disputed today, but it happened. It actually happened. And I think considering the country the way it was, it was bound to happen. It was racism that did it. It wasn't black racism. I don't believe there is such a thing as black racism. But it was the racism underneath that led people to believe they didn't want people that they were suspicious of in their own organization. It seems perfectly understandable. I don't agree with it, but it's understandable.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5284.0,5318.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: I mean, I think the strongest organizations are interracial organizations. Because then just from a purely organizing point of view, people can fan out into their own communities. They can bring people back in, and they also serve as living examples of what life could be like. I think that's what it's saying when Betty and Judy and Jane and I go on a trip, we are saying to people, this is what life could be like. I mean, I don't know if people are interpreting it that way, and we're not doing it for that reason, but that is the fact. That is the fact, that is what it could mean. But it's gonna take us a while to get there. And you know, it may be, I don't like to sound like Susie Sunshine, but maybe if \n[Hillary] Clinton had won, that some of these problems would have been submerged again, only to come up later on. I mean, maybe it's better to have an insane lunatic out there --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5318.0,5391.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Right, it forces us to deal with these systemic problems.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5391.0,5394.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Yeah, to think about it. And he does say things that other people are thinking, that's for sure. He says, \"This is our country. We don't want you anymore.\" Well, wait a minute. What do you mean? Well, I don't even know if he says \"our,\" he does say \"our country\" sometimes – “and we don't want you anymore.” But we do want them. We want them to work \n[laughs]. We want them to work. It just makes me really crazy. Okay.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5394.0,5432.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: So he said that about immigrants? \"We don't want you anymore\"?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5432.0,5436.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Yeah. This is our country. We've had enough. We've had enough of you. We don't want you anymore. And then who is gonna -- then the cost of string beans will go skyrocketing because there's nobody picking. Yeah. You're right, because Jared isn't going to be doing it. I have news for you \n[laughs]. Oh, okay. So, I'm almost at my limit.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5436.0,5465.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: So you mentioned, just to go back to some questions --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5465.0,5469.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Way back, way back when.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5469.0,5473.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: You mentioned that you joined the NAACP. Was that like a high school club, or --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5473.0,5479.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Honestly, I remember very little about it. I think I signed something, or I did it by mail or something. I don't remember going to a meeting. I actually don't. But I remember knowing something about it and, you know, saying that I was a member of some kind. But I don't think there was one at the high school. I would've gone to meetings, but there wasn't one.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5479.0,5502.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Do you remember what the membership did -- how did you join, and --\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5502.0,5510.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: I don't really know. I don't know. In those days, I don't even know what they were really doing here. I shouldn't say that, but I know that I was associated with them in some way. I might've just done it by mail or gone by the office or something. But they were the only game in town when I was in high school.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5510.0,5534.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: So I was also curious cause you said as soon as you went South, you fell in love with the South.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5534.0,5542.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Oh. Well, I didn't, no. I fell in love with the movement. The movement. Yeah. I should clarify that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5542.0,5547.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5547.0,5547.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Oh no, no, no. I had a lot of trouble in the South. I mean, I had a lot of trouble assimilating to the South. I never really assimilated. I lived there for many years.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5547.0,5558.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: What were some of the difficulties of assimilating to the South?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5558.0,5564.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Well, I'm a native new Yorker. So you know, my standards are totally different. My standard is, when there are people around, you're safe; when there's nobody around, you're in danger. Well guess what? In the rest of the country, it's when nobody's around, I'm safe. When there are people around, I'm in danger. Then, I think this is a Northern characteristic, you know, like today you were supposed to be here at three. You called to say that you were gonna be 15 minutes late. In the South, no. Time has a different quality, an elastic quality. \"I'll be around.\" There's no late. So I had a lot of trouble with that. And then I had trouble with manners, mostly in the white community with manners. There's a big thing about manners. Like it's considered, it's not good taste to discuss a serious subject at supper. You know, you should talk about safe things, like great meals that I have known \n[laughs]. Or, remember when Sally was two.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5564.0,5643.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: But, so, I had trouble. I had definitely trouble. Now, New Orleans was an unusual Southern city and it probably was the only place I could have lived, actually. Cause they had the French influence and they had Mardi Gras and they had, you know, they had drag queens, they had all kinds of stuff that other places in the South didn't have. But I found that sort of in the white community, especially, that politeness, that fake politeness, I didn't like. You know, \"Oh, I'm so happy to see you, and I'll lynch your husband tonight.\" That kind of thing. So, I didn't like that. Anybody from the South would probably get angry at this, but that was my experience. And I lived in New Orleans for 17 years. So I left here, and I came back 20 years later.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5643.0,5705.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Did your time in the South change your perspective on New York?\n\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5705.0,5711.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: No, I'm really one of those people born and bred, you know? Nope. I was on a housing list for 10 years, and when an apartment became vacant I took it sight unseen. And you know, no, I was homesick part of the time being there. To me it's, I have never spent a boring day outside. If I'm on the street, I'm never bored. Never. And there's so many unusual people going by and unusual things happening. I find it the most fascinating place, and I've traveled quite a bit. And to me it's still the best, even though the developers are killing us.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5711.0,5764.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Right. Oftentimes when we grow up in a place, we can take it for granted. But did leaving New York make you appreciate it more?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5764.0,5772.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: Oh, probably, probably. Yeah. I think I did take it for granted. I mean, I thought this is the way everybody lived, you know, until I found out otherwise. Now I think the cities are in terrible danger actually, because the developers are killing us. They're killing us. And another 20 years like this, none of us will be sitting here. I mean, we will all be in the Bronx. I mean the whole island will be one giant high rise, you know, with multibillion dollar apartments. But this depressing thing is, I just spent the weekend in Canada going to a wedding, my cousin in Toronto. It's the same thing that's happening in downtown Toronto, like skyscrapers, but worse in a way than ours. I mean, you know, everything is 60- and 70-story buildings. So, now this is a problem all over the world, with the land, the land is limited. So you can only build up. So the question is, how are you going to build up and for whom? That's what Elizabeth Warren says, you know, it's government for whom? For whom?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5772.0,5850.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBridget Bartolini: Yeah. And how far can gentrification go? Can it keep continuing as it has been?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5850.0,5857.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: No, not unless you invent some sort of super-fast transport where if somebody is living in Westchester, that they can get into Manhattan in 20 minutes. Then you can do that. You can have all the workers outside. But I don't see that happening. The climate change is what's gonna get us first because we really do have a deadline on that. And actually sometimes I think some political people, including myself, have made a mistake. That maybe we should've dropped everything 20 years ago and just worked on the climate. Because they say we have 10 more years. And then what?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5857.0,5906.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: I mean, if Trump is talking about -- see, they're such morons, they're talking about external immigration. Have they even begun to think about internal immigration? Like when Southern Florida is underwater, when those millions of people are going somewhere, they will be citizens of the U S of A, where are they going to go? Nobody's thinking about -- these clowns, they don't think about the future, you know, and that is actually likely to happen. All of those people have to go somewhere. The industry has to go somewhere, and the people have to go somewhere. So there's been no plan for that. No thought about that. And then they're making jokes, you know, about water, you know? So I'm eight blocks from the Hudson River. So the Hudson River could come lapping up to West End Avenue. Yeah. You live in Queens. I don't know if you would be underwater or what the problem would be, probably the air quality.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5906.0,5976.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014/transcript/24530/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDorothy Zellner: But the other thing is, regardless of the end, that's what I would tell somebody your age: it's the struggle that counts. And Frederick Douglas said it, other people have said it: if you want an interesting life, you know, you'll have to struggle for money, but it won't be boring. A social justice life is an interesting life. Nothing has been boring. I know a lot of people who have been bored their whole lives, you know, same old, same old. But when you're engaged, it's never same old. It's always different.\t\t\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/39544/file/111014#t=5976.0,6004.36258"}]}]}]}