{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/804xg9gb89/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Joan Nestle Oral History"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interviews\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eJoan Nestle is a co-founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives and former professor in the SEEK program at Queens College, where she taught English from 1966 to 1995. She is also a prolific author and editor, whose works include A Restricted Country (1988), The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader (1992), Women on Women volumes 1-3 (1990-96), and GENDERqUEER: Voices from Beyond the Sexual Binary (2002). Nestle was born in New York City, where she lived for many decades before moving to Melbourne, Australia with her partner, Dianne Otto. She helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972, from which sprang the Lesbian Herstory Archives. From the Archive’s opening in 1974 until 1992, the entire collection was located in Nestle’s brownstone apartment on the Upper West Side, Manhattan.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eThe first recording is undated but was likely done during 1991, in the midst of Nestle’s 25-year anniversary teaching at the SEEK program. She was the third interviewee in Queens College’s Women’s Oral History Project. Nestle discusses how she came to SEEK and her early years in the program, starting her own writing and editing work, and being diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome. She also describes the difficulty of being a Lesbian in the 1940s and 1950s and the importance of finding a Lesbian feminist community for her to thrive in. When asked about SEEK, Nestle discusses its importance while contrasting it to other, more conservative, elements of Queens College. Nestle also mentions favorite pieces of her writing, inspirational authors and figures in her life, hopes for the future, and the Lesbian Herstory Archives’ imminent move from her apartment to its current home in Park Slope, Brooklyn.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eFollowing the first interview, Melissa Thomas conducted two more oral history sessions with Nestle in March and April 1992. In part one of the 1992 sessions, Nestle talks about her forthcoming book The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader, her status as a “controversial” writer, deconstructing the history and terminology of “butch” and “femme,” and the positions of Lesbians in society. Nestle discusses the often complex relationships between lesbians and the feminist movement, and her own challenges moving through the various communities of her life, such as local and international networks of Lesbian organizers and SEEK. She also critiques the treatment of SEEK and SEEK students by the rest of Queens College, and the challenges of building a radical education program. When asked about the value of the archives, Nestle discusses her views on its importance and impact, as well as the challenges of persistent homophobia in society.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eIn part two of the 1992 interviews, she discusses her family and childhood growing up working-class in New York with her mother, and occasionally other family. Nestle expands on her mother’s life and sexuality, which served as inspiration for her piece “My Mother Liked to Fuck.” She also discusses her relationship with her mother and brother, and the impact of class on her childhood. Discussing the milestones of her life, Nestle recalls early relationships with women, student activism in the 1960s, joining the SEEK program at Queens College, demonstrations on-campus with SEEK, and founding the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Thomas and Nestle also discuss the latter’s relationship with Harlem Renaissance dancer and integral Black and Lesbian rights activist Mabel Hampton. Finally, Nestle discusses what her goals for the future are.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["These interviews were originally conducted for The Women's Oral History Project (circa 1991-1992), funded by a Ford Foundation Diversity Initiative Grant. The project was led by Queens College Professor Bette Weidman. Joan Nestle has given permission for the interview to be preserved and made accessible by the Queens Memory Project."]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["1940s-1992 (temporal)","Manhattan, Brooklyn, the Bronx, and Queens College, Queens, NY (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1991 (created)","1992-03-07 (created)","1992-04-08 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Joan Nestle (Interviewee)","Melissa Thomas (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Audio"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interviews\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eJoan Nestle is a co-founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives and former professor in the SEEK program at Queens College, where she taught English from 1966 to 1995. She is also a prolific author and editor, whose works include A Restricted Country (1988), The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader (1992), Women on Women volumes 1-3 (1990-96), and GENDERqUEER: Voices from Beyond the Sexual Binary (2002). Nestle was born in New York City, where she lived for many decades before moving to Melbourne, Australia with her partner, Dianne Otto. She helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972, from which sprang the Lesbian Herstory Archives. From the Archive\u0026rsquo;s opening in 1974 until 1992, the entire collection was located in Nestle\u0026rsquo;s brownstone apartment on the Upper West Side, Manhattan.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eThe first recording is undated but was likely done during 1991, in the midst of Nestle\u0026rsquo;s 25-year anniversary teaching at the SEEK program. She was the third interviewee in Queens College\u0026rsquo;s Women\u0026rsquo;s Oral History Project. Nestle discusses how she came to SEEK and her early years in the program, starting her own writing and editing work, and being diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome. She also describes the difficulty of being a Lesbian in the 1940s and 1950s and the importance of finding a Lesbian feminist community for her to thrive in. When asked about SEEK, Nestle discusses its importance while contrasting it to other, more conservative, elements of Queens College. Nestle also mentions favorite pieces of her writing, inspirational authors and figures in her life, hopes for the future, and the Lesbian Herstory Archives\u0026rsquo; imminent move from her apartment to its current home in Park Slope, Brooklyn.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eFollowing the first interview, Melissa Thomas conducted two more oral history sessions with Nestle in March and April 1992. In part one of the 1992 sessions, Nestle talks about her forthcoming book The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader, her status as a \u0026ldquo;controversial\u0026rdquo; writer, deconstructing the history and terminology of \u0026ldquo;butch\u0026rdquo; and \u0026ldquo;femme,\u0026rdquo; and the positions of Lesbians in society. Nestle discusses the often complex relationships between lesbians and the feminist movement, and her own challenges moving through the various communities of her life, such as local and international networks of Lesbian organizers and SEEK. She also critiques the treatment of SEEK and SEEK students by the rest of Queens College, and the challenges of building a radical education program. When asked about the value of the archives, Nestle discusses her views on its importance and impact, as well as the challenges of persistent homophobia in society.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eIn part two of the 1992 interviews, she discusses her family and childhood growing up working-class in New York with her mother, and occasionally other family. Nestle expands on her mother\u0026rsquo;s life and sexuality, which served as inspiration for her piece \u0026ldquo;My Mother Liked to Fuck.\u0026rdquo; She also discusses her relationship with her mother and brother, and the impact of class on her childhood. Discussing the milestones of her life, Nestle recalls early relationships with women, student activism in the 1960s, joining the SEEK program at Queens College, demonstrations on-campus with SEEK, and founding the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Thomas and Nestle also discuss the latter\u0026rsquo;s relationship with Harlem Renaissance dancer and integral Black and Lesbian rights activist Mabel Hampton. Finally, Nestle discusses what her goals for the future are.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/187/981/small/--girard-aviary.jpg?1684785865","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 3 - Nestle_3rdSession1991_A.mp3"]},"duration":1295.49056,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/187/981/small/--girard-aviary.jpg?1684785865","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/187/981/original/Nestle_3rdSession1991_A.mp3?1684785669","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":1295.49056,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Full Transcript - 1991 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay, this is Melissa Thomas, and we are doing our interview. Number three with Joan Nestle. Joan Nestle is on the faculty of Queens College in the SEEK program,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1.0,14.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And English department.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=14.0,15.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: And English department, and a great educator. And-- [laugh]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=15.0,22.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Said on tape.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=22.0,25.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: I understand, too, a co-founder of Herstory Archives.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=25.0,30.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Mm-hmm [affirmative].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=30.0,30.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: So I'd like to go over your life and your presence here at Queens College and what it means to you. How did you start in your teaching?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=30.0,44.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Well, I had a nontraditional start because what I teach is nontraditional. What I mean by that, I don't have a PhD. I came-- the SEEK program started in 1966, and it grew out of the whole social change movement of those days. And I had been a student here in the late '50s, early '60s, and part of that social movement change. I was living on the Lower East Side and working and going to school, getting my graduate degrees. And I got a call from a woman who I'd been in school here with, and she said, Joan, you know, there's program starting called the SEEK program and they need a teacher. And would you like to teach? And I had always dreamed of teaching writing in English, but I didn't think the chance would come so soon. And I said, okay, I'll go for an interview.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=44.0,93.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=93.0,94.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And I did, and I was hired then by the then-director of the SEEK program and my first class were 25 men just out of prison.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=94.0,102.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Wow.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=102.0,102.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And it was a wonderful class. They were very patient with me. I had never taught before. But I realized this was the work I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And I've been with the SEEK program for 25 years. And to me, it's really at the center of what the educational vision of this country should be. And it also was a multicultural education experience before that was a fad word. SEEK was really a pioneer program. And I was very lucky to be part of it. And there are days when I'm teaching and I say, am I gonna get paid for this? Cause the joy, for instance of teaching Their Eyes Were Watching God. Working with my students. There are days when I feel like this is hard work and then there are days that it's just joy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=102.0,151.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: That's great. And so you've been working here for 25 years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=151.0,154.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=154.0,154.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: And coming here that must have been an experience for you in terms of being in the program and covering so many different subjects. What about your writing career? When did you start with that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=154.0,171.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Well, that's-- I don't know how in depth you want to get, but I'll start it this way. I've been active in my other community-- which is the Lesbian Feminist community-- since, again, the late 1950s. We weren't a community that way, but I was active in the political struggles to become a community. And I founded, was co-founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives in 1973. Then I started writing as a result of that and giving speeches around the country, but my own personal writing career started as a result of an illness. I became ill in 1978 and nobody knew what it was. And so the doctor said it was MS [Multiple Sclerosis]. It was very scary. And I couldn't work that year and my friends, to help me out because I was pretty much homebound, asked me about being part of a writer's group. And it was all women, which meant they would come to my house. And it was a way of keeping my spirits up. But that's where I wrote my first pieces about what it had been like to love women back in the '50s and my feminism. And then I kept writing and in 1988, Nancy Bereano-- who's a feminist publisher-- asked if I'd put all my writings together. Because I didn't write it as a book. I wrote short stories and I'd send them out and they'd be published, and I'd write a poem and an essay, but then I put them all together and they became A Restricted Country.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=171.0,254.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: A Restricted Country. Did that include the piece, um?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=254.0,258.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: My Mother Like[d] to Fuck.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=258.0,258.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah. I had read that in our Queens College book. That powers and desire for the summer course. Yes. It was sociology, the human sexuality. Yeah, that was a very good piece.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=258.0,275.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I have some, let me tell you other books I have. I also edited [along with Naomi Holoch] the first anthology of Lesbian short stories ever to be published by a mainstream press. That's called Women on Women and there's a second volume of that coming out. And then--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=275.0,287.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: When was the first volume done?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=287.0,288.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: That was in 1990 and it won an award. And then I have two more anthologies in the works. And then I'd like to do an issue of my journals.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=288.0,303.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: So you sound like you're very busy in addition to your teaching here and you have your writing career. Okay. Can you think of any breaks that you might have had, lucky breaks in making it in your writing career or anyone who might have helped you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=303.0,318.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Well, I'll say my biggest lucky break was that I had a community. That I had a feminist publisher who wanted to publish my works. My writing never would've been published by a straight, patriarchal press. So the biggest break I had was that I was living during the timeframe when feminists and Lesbian Feminists specifically created a counterculture opportunity for me. And also institutions. For instance, I read all around the country and other countries in the world. And I read to straight and gay audiences and women audiences. But without the Women's Studies movement in this country, I would not have the audience I have. So my biggest break has been the fact that there is a movement that gave me an audience and that prepared people to hear what I had to say. And then the individual woman was Nancy Bereano, the publisher.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=318.0,373.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Do you find that things are a little bit more acceptable now with the type of work you're doing than it was before?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=373.0,380.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yes. I mean, I come from the fifties, when I was a criminal, when I was legally, you know, medically, religiously every way, considered a less-than-human person. The world has changed. I just had my last class and my students write their memoirs and they, they were supposed to bring in-- and some of them did-- parts of their memoirs. And I brought in this book. Well, 15 years ago I never read, I couldn't have written the book. And to read any part of it in my class is, you know, says the world has changed. But there's still homophobia, there's still racism. There's still sexism. In fact, I also see a swing to the right in this country. So it's always perilous.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=380.0,424.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Do you have any other interests that you might have pursued instead of writing or any other fields of study that--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=424.0,435.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I, you know, what I could have? Sometimes I think I wouldn't have been an English major in school because that's something-- I love to read. I didn't have to be taught and I, maybe I would've-- I could never have been a doctor because I don't feel I'm scientifically smart enough. I mean, sometimes I think I would've liked to have learned something very practical that could make the world a better place instantly. You know, like if someone's sick, or even a farm techno-something, you know, but no. I mean, my major, the major goal was always to write.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=435.0,470.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: It always has been. You think of anything about Queens College that you like here, as opposed to maybe another institution that you might have taught out or another deal?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=470.0,479.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I can't-- I'll be quite honest with you. I have lots of problems with Queens College as an institution. My commitment is to the SEEK program. To me, the SEEK program is Queens College, but Queens College is not the SEEK program. What I mean by that is I have given classes and I've been asked to teach at other universities like Harvard, like Cornell. There's an arrogance sometimes in students. After teaching my, the SEEK students, these are many times students who are working day and night, taking care of a family, struggling for everything they have. I have little patience with arrogance. What I call the privileged. And so it is a special commitment to me, these kids in a certain sense were like I was. I could not have gone to college without a free university system. And one of the tragedies is that we [Queens College] are no longer free. I was from a nontraditional background. And so I feel very comfortable in a certain sense. I don't know if my students would like this, but I feel very comfortable with being a critic of the power structure, and the SEEK program is very much based on another kind of analysis of things. Now Queens has a Women's Studies program.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=479.0,574.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=574.0,575.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: But Queens has been a pretty conservative institution. And I know many of my students complain about attitudes on this campus. So I don't wholeheartedly embrace Queens College. I do embrace the city university system and I'm grateful to Queens because I wouldn't have-- and I got an excellent education here, in English literature, but it was ENGLISH literature. There was no other peoples represented. You know, things are changing. I think the multicultural movement is the best thing that could happen to Queens College.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=575.0,601.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: I know this is a difficult question to ask, especially of artists and writers, but the--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=601.0,609.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: You flatter me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=609.0,609.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Of all the pieces that you've written, can you think of maybe one or two that you like the most?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=609.0,616.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Well I'll tell you, as a writer, I'm dissatisfied with everything I've written. But pieces that I think are most important to exist in the world? You know, because I see my writing as doing work in the world. And one of the pieces, a piece called \"The Bathroom Line,\" which is a piece about my experience in the working-class bars of the '50s, when, because we were judged to be social deviants, my comrades and I were not even allowed to go to the bathroom without being watched. And what that meant was in this bar that I went to, we were only allowed in the bathroom one at a time, because for that bar to exist the bar owners had to convince the vice squad that we, that there was no sexual contact. And so to do that, they controlled our entrance. It's a symbolic timeout. And how that was done was there was this line. If you had to go to the bathroom, you had to wait on the line because there was a woman whose job it was to wrap around her fist our allotted amount of toilet paper. And I always said, I will never forget that experience-- the humiliation of that experience, the education of that experience and the courage of the women on either side of me. Because as I say in the piece, we learned to breathe on that line. We, but we also paid our price. And so that's an important piece. \"My Mother Liked to Fuck\" is an important piece because it brought together two words that in the women's movement hadn't been said yet, mother and fuck. And that, and I was trying always to give women the right to a sexual intensity and legacy. At the same time, recognizing that women are sexual victims all the time. That's a very tricky balance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=616.0,719.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: So that must have been a shocking piece, especially when, you know, at the time that it was written. Probably now, though of course it wouldn't be so much so. But--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=719.0,728.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Many of my pieces are controversial and I'm a controversial writer. I mean, there are feminists who think I'm not a feminist at all and my work shouldn't be read or taught. So it's up for individual readers to decide.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=728.0,743.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: If you can see yourself in 10 years or so, would you like to be, is there anything more that you would like to do?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=743.0,752.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I'd like to try to teach a Women's Studies course. Or I'd like to be part of a Women's Studies course. You know, I came to where I missed-- I'd like to see if I could communicate to a new group, a younger group of women, what we had to give each other. I'd like that. I'd like to write a great historical novel. And I'd like to write about more complex worlds in some way. So that's-- I'll be 61 in ten years. I'd like to be here in 10 years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=752.0,793.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: That's great.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=793.0,794.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Oh, and the [Lesbian Herstory] Archives! That part of my life, I should say the Archives, which was the first [Lesbian] library of its kind in the world to ever exist. And it's a collecting place for all aspects of Lesbian culture from the past into the future. And it was in my home for 17 years. All the years I was teaching here I was also living with this collection. And now, on this Thursday, we are closing on a building. It'll be the first building owned by Lesbian women in the history of New York City. It's moving into its own building. So that's--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=794.0,826.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Where is that going?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=826.0,827.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: That's going to be in Brooklyn, in Park Slope.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=827.0,828.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Oh wow.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=828.0,828.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And it's really an ending in my life because I haven't had a home in 18 years, 17 years. So this is really a crossroads of my life.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=828.0,841.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: And in this collection is included different works, from different--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=841.0,846.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: In this collection is included diaries, manuscripts, books-- published, unpublished-- short stories, every conceivable-- records! It's a museum-- t-shirts! We have artifacts going back to, well, the primary source, the oldest is like the 1830s. But then of course we have Sappho's poetry, which goes back to antiquity. But, and it's a multicultural collection. It's really quite an amazing collection. And one of the things we do is send out exhibits and I was gonna have [one] at Queens but I got sick last year. We did for the Gay Center [editor's note: now called the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Community Center, colloquially known as the Center], a photographic exhibit called \"The History of African American Lesbians in America.\" And that's been on tour, it's at Rutgers now. I still think we have a real struggle to get Gay and Lesbian history seen-- Gay and Lesbian culture-- as part of multiculturalism. And so that's, yep...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=846.0,881.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Well, this has been very interesting. And this is a field that I was interested in the education aspect and the writing aspect, [and] getting books published. I can see it helps if you have a support group, especially if you're a controversial writer.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=881.0,927.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Absolutely.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=927.0,928.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Of the books that you've published, can you think of any that were your favorites or--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=928.0,939.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Well, I haven't really, I mean, I've only published up to this moment-- I've been, anthologized in a lot of places, but my big--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=939.0,945.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: This is the new one?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=945.0,947.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: The new, A Restricted Country is still my favorite though. Because it's the most personal, it's written by me. I do have an anthology coming up, called-- which would be quite controversial-- called The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader and that's, there are pieces in there written by women in the '50s that will change Women's History if in fact people read it. But so that is running for second. But I would like to get back to my own writing. I don't have time to write, really, given my class load and given the fact that I teach writing, because I have my students' writing--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=947.0,980.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Writing is a field where you, you need time to create. Especially, I mean, your mind has to be in that type of mood. Do you have any particular place that you write that you feel comfortable with? I know when I write, I have to have-- just in one spot or else there's no way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=980.0,1001.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Everybody has rituals, absolutely. I'm still finding the right ritual. I have a desk, a very cluttered, simple wood-- just a door, you know, on top.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1001.0,1011.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1011.0,1013.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: But there is one-- and I write late at night, usually. But one thing I do, and this is very odd. I like to have a kind of soaring quality in my writing. I like there to be a lyricism, even when I'm writing about things some people think are dirty. I mean, dirty, I mean, gritty. So sometimes to get myself in that mood to find the language that soars, I play Puccini's Madame Butterfly. That's my secret!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1013.0,1041.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Oh wow.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1041.0,1041.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And within five minutes, my soul just opens up. You know?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1041.0,1044.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: That's great. That's great. I've always liked to know that because I know different writers do different things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1044.0,1051.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Little things, some writers have to wear a certain hat.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1051.0,1054.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1054.0,1054.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And I, of course, sharpen every pencil, even though I don't use-- now I've learned!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1054.0,1058.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: But they have to be ready to be used.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1058.0,1060.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: They have to be. My goal is really, I would love to have a clean desk with nothing on it. But when I'm working on-- unfortunately on my desk is a mixture of all my lives. And I write in bits and pieces. I never, I always feel like I'm not really a real writer. Because I have friends who are quote \"real writers,\" which means they get, they do nothing but write. They get up in the morning, they write for six hours. I mean, that's, you know, I really think that's how you develop really very profound skills. I think I will always be a writer of rather short pieces. A writer who fits writing in around her struggle to survive economically. Around political work. You know, I don't think I'll ever have the luxury of just being able to write. I don't see the economic--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1060.0,1104.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: It is a sacrifice.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1104.0,1106.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And you need money. I mean, the truth of it is if you need to be economically secure. And one thing I can tell you when you publish from small presses you don't get money.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1106.0,1115.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Can you think of anyone, any who writes, who would be people who inspire you? Who have been your greatest inspirations?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1115.0,1126.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: It's a whole group, but I-- And different kinds of writers. And one thing teaching here is I've met wonderful writers in the sense that I [meet them] through their works. But I just finished working with Zora Neale Hurston, Their Eyes Were Watching God. Well, her whole sensibility as a woman, a nonconformist woman, inspires me and what she does with language inspires me. I like Colette, the French writer. Oh, I'm going to pull blanks here. You always do when asked these questions, but I've read recently-- [pause] There are many, I read mostly women writers and women writers are doing wonderful things in the world. At the moment I can't think of others. Then I read pieces like anything on colonization. Albert Memmi, The Colonized and the Colonizer is a very important one [editor's note: title of the book is The Colonizer and the Colonized]. James Baldwin is a very important one.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1126.0,1180.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: And lastly, if there's anything that you could do differently in life, anything that you could think of. I know we could always think of something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1180.0,1200.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Maybe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1200.0,1201.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Anything that may have had to do with your career that you might have done differently?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1201.0,1212.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Well, the big thing, I guess I wouldn't have changed-- I hope it wouldn't have changed my teaching at SEEK. But I probably should have gotten my PhD. And I was in the PhD program at Berkeley in 19-- right before everything broke out. And a love affair I was in broke up. And the woman I was with was to die two years later. So I had some time with her, but I couldn't sustain myself in Berkeley as a graduate student. I didn't have enough confidence. I went from Queens to there and I was from a working-class family. I just didn't see myself. I was terrified by the other graduate students. And I wish I had gotten the kind of support-- But I also didn't have the money to be, I needed to come back here and work during the day and go to school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1212.0,1254.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: So I think my biggest regret professionally is that I didn't get my PhD. But the other part of that when I did have a PhD topic and I was going to NYU, I wanted to be Langston Hughes, who's another very important writer. And I wanted to do a dissertation on his Ask Your Mama, which is this 150 page epic poem. And when I went to my advisor he said to me, Langston who? And I just walked out of the office and I never went back. So I think kids are really lucky.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1254.0,1285.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Definitely. Well, thank you very much for your time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1285.0,1289.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Thank you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1289.0,1290.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: That's the end.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1290.0,1290.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981/transcript/43586/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: See if it played back. Let's just make sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187981#t=1290.0,1295.49056"}]}]},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 3 - Nestle_03071992_A.mp3"]},"duration":2759.83669,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/187/982/small/--girard-aviary.jpg?1684785847","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/187/982/original/Nestle_03071992_A.mp3?1684785670","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2759.83669,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Full Transcript - March 7, 1992 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay. Today is March 7th and we are here again with Joan Nestle, and I'd like to perhaps expand a little bit on some issues that we have covered before. And now that I have read some of your work, I'd also like you to tell us some more about what's going on with-- you have a new book coming out. Right. And I see it's going to be very comprehensive. It covers a larger span than A Restricted Country did. [trascriber's note: A Restricted Country is Joan Nestle's first authored book]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=5.0,38.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=38.0,38.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Could you tell us a little bit about your book?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=38.0,40.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yes. This is a very exciting day, Melissa. This is sort of speaking to a larger audience, but it arrived on the same day-- Well, last night, the page proofs came, and The Persistent Desire is a collection of over 65 other women's voices. So that's, what's exciting to me. It's not just my voice. Going back-- Well, there's one piece from the 1830s. But it's narratives and testimonies about lesbians who would call themselves Butch and fem and what their lives were like in the forties, the fifties, the sixties, and then up into the nineties. And it's a mixed genre, it's essays and short stories and poems and academic papers. To me, it's a tapestry of courage and of sexuality and of women's history.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=40.0,91.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=91.0,92.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And I think, as I said, I'm very proud of the women and myself that it's coming out now because I find these dangerously reactionary times. [pause] And this book, how can I say? Would have a fragile life at any time. The fact that it's coming out now is really a defiant statement in some ways.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=92.0,117.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: How would we define the term \"butch\" and \"femme?\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=117.0,122.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I'm afraid, Melissa, it's a very-- it's what I said. I have been asked that, you know, my whole life, and it's very complex. And I think the best way would be to say read the book because-- But I'll tell you how it's not defined how I don't define it. I don't define it as gay women or lesbians imitating heterosexuality.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=122.0,145.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=145.0,145.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Though there are elements of gender, socialized behavior, in it, which means that you could look at a butch-femme couple and say, oh, look, there's one woman trying to be a man. And another woman trying to be a woman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=145.0,162.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=162.0,163.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Which, you know, that would just be the most superficial, and really the least perceptive way. What I believe is that butch women and femme women-- for different reasons, because their sense of gender is different-- created a lesbian-specific way to love and create a culture in a time when they were totally alone.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=163.0,188.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I mean, they had to find the way-- In a way, it's a redefinition, it's a deconstruction of gender as opposed to an imitation of it. But it's very complex because of femme identity-- and I use the word identity, not role-- it isn't masquerades. A femme woman doesn't pretend to be a woman. I'm a woman. And a Butch woman does not pretend to be a man. She is a certain kind of woman who takes what this society calls masculine artifacts like clothes, or maybe walk, and transforms it because she's always a woman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=188.0,222.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=222.0,223.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: That means she has not male privilege. She doesn't have male power. She comes with a whole different emotional history and things. So there's no easy answer. All I can say is that it's a way of loving and a way of living that has given the lesbian community life for over a hundred years. It adapts to changing cultures--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=223.0,243.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: It's essentially an attempt to define, but it's very hard to pattern after a heterosexual relationship because the elements that would be akin to being heterosexual would not be the same as a lesbian femme or butch.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=243.0,260.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Absolutely. We can't marry. I mean, all the things that we're supposed to be imitating-- In fact, I see it just the opposite. I see us as really challenging and creating for ourselves gender identity. And one of my evidences of it is butch and femme women are the ones most beaten on the streets and they're attacked because heterosexuals are outraged at what they consider the usurption, you know, the taking over of things reserved for heterosexuals. In other words, they see two independent women. When they see a butch and femme couple on the streets, they see two women who have no need for men. And that's what enrages them. And so you often have a man beating up butch women saying, you know, \"you wanna be one of us, I'll show you how to be one of us.\" Or \"who are you to think you could have a woman?\" So. [pause] I'm not dodging the question--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=260.0,311.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: That type of thing would feed into a homophobic type of situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=311.0,315.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=315.0,315.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: And I'm sure this book, in recreating or exposing us to these different lifestyles would at least give most people a better understanding of the type of relationships that there are.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=315.0,327.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=327.0,328.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: I would think that with the recent feminist movement though, that things would be probably less dangerous for non-heterosexuals, butches, femmes. How do you feel about that? Do you feel it's better or safer or in some ways, or maybe not in other ways?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=328.0,346.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: It's a very good question. And again, all your questions are complex, Melissa, and it's complex because in some sense, the feminist movement has made being a lesbian safer and more respectable. I mean, just the fact that we're sitting here, the fact that lesbians are on college campuses, organized. And the fact that there's a woman's consciousness about choices. But butch-femme women often did not benefit from the feminist movement because-- and I'm a part of that, I'm one of the few femme women who survived in feminism because in the early seventies, butch, femme women were totally disowned by the feminist movement.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=346.0,381.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=381.0,382.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: So I think violence against butch-femme women is as high or more so than it ever was because there is a lot of anger towards women generally in the society now that we are organized, you know?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=382.0,394.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=394.0,394.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And they can't hit their wives-- I mean, I can't, I shouldn't say that. [laughs] But a butch-femme couple who is now even more exposed in a way, because it isn't how most women present themselves. So I think it's complex. I think it is safer for lesbians at large who look androgynous. You know, I think androgyny is more popular. The butch-femme lesbian, I think is endangered as she-- as they always were.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=394.0,423.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: I find, in seeing how the society operates, it tends to be better when individual groups are separated and divided amongst each other. And that tends to weaken several movements, including the feminist movement. I can only see your contribution as a plus in this direction. I should think. Do you consider yourself, have you encountered any problems from the feminist movement in terms of your writing? Or in what ways have you--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=423.0,462.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Oh in the most basic ways, censorship. Meaning that I have not been asked to speak on panels or I've been asked to leave panels or-- [pause] In writing, you know, my work has been critiqued as patriarchal and dangerous to women. When I spoke in London, there were picket lines against my appearance and I wasn't allowed in certain places, women were fired for giving me a tour of a woman's archive. So, no, and I think some of that is in A Restricted Country. Some of my stories have been banned as obscene or dropped from presses by straight women, by feminists. I mean, any writer who doesn't stay within an orthodox position opens him or herself up to being called a traitor. But I can live with that. I also realize that I'm talking about things that have caused women lots of pain, all women. You talk about sexuality and you must have in your head sexual violence. If you talk about any form of power you must have in your head the abuse of power on women. So I guess, yes, I have been-- [pause] It would never drive me from the feminist philosophy. I feel I'm a deep feminist. I just differ. And I think that's okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=462.0,536.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Sure, sure. It's okay. You have several communities that you move within. You have your community with your butch-femme community. You also have the community of Queens College. Have they been supportive of each other, these two communities at any time or [was there] contrast-- what are the benefits and drawbacks of being involved in certain different communities?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=536.0,561.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I also think the drawbacks are always a kind of loneliness that you carry with you. When you move from one community to another, you can't always take all your pieces with you, you know? And always, for a lesbian woman who, let's say doesn't have children and has never married-- over the years in my SEEK community, since I was only out lesbian and only out gay person, there were real lonelinesses, more, you know, at meetings and at gatherings and stuff, because I couldn't really bring my life there. But that changed when I came out. And I came out, I guess, now 10, 12 years ago. And that changed. And I have to say that the SEEK program has been one of the most supportive places to all parts of my life. I mean, Dr. Emerson who's, our director now, will send me announcements of lesbian events.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=561.0,608.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Once I came out and demanded respect, I have gotten more. And my students have been incredible. I'll tell you an incident. Once I was asked to show the Lesbian Archives' slideshow on this campus and it was gonna be a woman's only showing this was the time. And it was-- male students were very upset and they formed this gauntlet, really threatening women who went through it. And at some point they broke the door down and it was a terrible scene on campus. And as one young man told me, he said, if you had asked my permission, we might have given it to you. I mean, this is a real sense of male power.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=608.0,648.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: And what year? About what year was that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=648.0,650.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: This would've been probably 19-- in the mid '70s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=650.0,654.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=654.0,656.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: But what I wanted to say was when-- I had told my own students, I mean, they had saw my name and--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=656.0,660.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=660.0,660.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And my male students said, Joan, we would've protected you. We would've made sure those women were safe. I mean, my students have just been incredible and I'm a much better teacher now that I can use my difference in the classroom because we're all different and we're all the same. And I think the biggest drawback is not being an honest person. And the minute you know that you are betraying any part of yourself, you don't give everything you can. In any situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=660.0,690.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm [affirmative].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=690.0,691.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: So I'm very lucky now that I have no secrets.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=691.0,694.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: It was hard making a transition to the college community, but not the other way around?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=694.0,700.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: What do you mean by that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=700.0,701.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: In bringing what you do at school--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=701.0,704.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Oh, I see that's, yes--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=704.0,705.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: To your community.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=705.0,708.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle:  No. [pause] you know, because I'm not really heavy into an academic world. I mean, no, because my community and the SEEK program often are fighting for the same things. Which are survival and marginality, you know, and disenfranchisement. So, I teach writing and I use my writing. No, I've been very-- I don't move in a quote \"academic\" community in my private life. I don't move in a writer's community, you know. I move in a very mixed community.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=708.0,739.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: It's flexible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=739.0,740.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=740.0,741.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: What is some of the hardest parts about teaching at Queens College? Have you encountered anything that you as a teacher would say is one of the hardest things about your job?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=741.0,755.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Well, I think the hardest thing is the attitude towards the SEEK program and SEEK students and SEEK faculty on this campus. That we are looked upon as not \"real\" students and teachers, that we don't many times get the same recognition or the same respect. And if it isn't spoken, it's unspoken. But many times I don't really feel a part-- how can I put it? I feel SEEK is at the center of Queens College. But in terms of official sense of it, you know, I don't feel so much a part of it. I dunno if that made sense, but--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=755.0,794.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah, sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=794.0,795.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: The traditional way, I don't feel a part of the traditional departments. I'm not in a traditional department. You know, we don't sit around and talk about, I don't know if the others do either, but you know, what we just published or what-- it's a very different focus in SEEK.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=795.0,808.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: So even though you teach English, per se, on the campus, it's within the SEEK program?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=808.0,813.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yeah. Absolutely, I don't go to English. Though, you know, now there's been some outreach. But the irony of all of this, now there's multiculturalism, right? And now the SEEK program has all of a sudden been given a new building. Well, this isn't an accident. It's because now we're cosmetically, you know, acceptable. But when we started 25 years ago, nobody wanted our students. They weren't fighting to have a multicultural classroom. You know? So I find sometimes the hypocrisy is hard to take.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=813.0,843.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: The SEEK program, we have a big year coming up. This is 25 years. I understand you're on the committee to have a--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=843.0,852.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: To celebrate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=852.0,853.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: A celebration in the next coming, is it weeks or a month or--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=853.0,857.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Well, the big celebration's gonna be in May, but we've been working on it. And I'll tell you something, another crossover was [that] I never knew Queens college had an archives, you know. And here I'm-- and just last week we penetrated into the Queens College archives and found, we were looking for newspaper articles about the late '60s, when the SEEK students, the black and Puerto Rican students and faculty staged, really, a revolution on this campus. And police were sent in, which I don't know how many people know. And a John DOE writ was issued on our students, which said if three or more SEEK students or faculty were found speaking together, they could be arrested. Which is very much like South Africa.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=857.0,897.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=897.0,898.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And we are planning an exhibit in the library and I very much want photographs of the police on this campus. Of our students doing what they did. I want that to be known as part of our history. And we found this album, somebody had clipped all these articles and it's in such terrible shape. It's rotting away. And I introduced myself, they knew I was from SEEK, but I also said that I'm co-founder of an archives and the look on the librarian's face was very interesting. And so I had another chance to bring my life together. And I-- anyway, there's gonna be an exhibit that I hope will make SEEK proud, and make everyone think. And then we're gonna have a history, a teach-in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=898.0,940.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=940.0,941.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: In the old tradition.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=941.0,943.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Wow, that sounds great. And so are they--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=943.0,945.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: It's in May. It's the week of May 6th through 10th and everybody on campus would be invited to, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=945.0,952.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: It sounds like it's gonna be something, really--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=952.0,954.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yeah. I can pull it all together, Melissa. [laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=954.0,957.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: I'm pretty sure. You seem to be able to pull aside a few things together. [laugh] It looks like it's going to be something really great. In your writing, what would you like to have people remember most, or what type of an effect on the world would you like for your writing to create? What would you like to bring together? Or what would you like to accomplish most in your writing?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=957.0,989.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I just have to ask your patience, if I weep a little. This is a very emotional day, also I'm menopausal [laugh]. But in the background, I can hear the sounds of the archives being packed up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=989.0,1000.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm [affirmative],","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1000.0,1001.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: As Melissa said, it's like a child getting ready.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1001.0,1004.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah. You've had this collection and I'm looking at a really extensive collection--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1004.0,1008.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Wow, I didn't realize I was gonna do this--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1008.0,1010.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: From what I understand it has been housed for about 18 years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1010.0,1016.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: 18 years, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1016.0,1017.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: And like a child, it's getting ready to go to its new home in Brooklyn, a brownstone, a beautiful brownstone.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1017.0,1023.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Raised by women's dollars and dimes, you know, no thousands of dollars, just thousands of women sending whatever they could.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1023.0,1033.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: These collections are very, I would consider them priceless. One of a kind.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1033.0,1040.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yes, they are. They absolutely are.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1040.0,1041.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: They've been very original.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1041.0,1044.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And there are many women who are no longer living whose memory is now, you know, our responsibility. It's a very thing-- Anyway, I think your question also went home because [pause] I have to-- [laugh]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1044.0,1062.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Take your time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1062.0,1064.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I don't know why this is, I mean, I do know why, but-- [blows nose] I mean, there's two levels of what I would want my work to do in the world. One is specifically for my lesbian people, for the gay people and for women. And that is to reclaim a history, to reclaim a beauty and a way of loving from doctors' records, prison records. In other words, we were stigmatized so long. We were made the objects of the study of difference for so long that I want to give my people their place in history. And I want to give my people the documents, both of my own life-- and I consider poetry a document of the human spirit, all kinds of things, nourishment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1064.0,1126.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Because I know there's gonna be battles. I also wanted to say thank you to the women who let me grow into this lit way of loving, who alone took on so many kinds of violence before they were considered human. So that's to my own people to give both a survival and a celebration to them. But then for everybody is a message that-- [pause] I'm embarrassed, Melissa.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1126.0,1162.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: I'm sorry.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1162.0,1162.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: That basically-- I don't know what this is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1162.0,1165.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: A lot of luck?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1165.0,1165.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Wait till you are-- it must be! That nobody's a freak is what I want to say.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1165.0,1170.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1170.0,1171.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: That I really want to leave a message about human compassion and complexity. And that the wonder of our humanity is that we find ways to love and to-- how can I say?-- create beauty in such paradoxical situations, such demanding situations. And I think the whole world will be enriched by any record of a people striving for social justice, for the right to love, for sexual expression. I think the whole human community can be nourished.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1171.0,1214.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: And of course there would be a large hole in that community of not knowing the full story of that community.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1214.0,1220.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Absolutely. And of other, I just think if you take away all the gay and lesbian writers of the 20th century, if all of a sudden their work disappeared, do you know who would be lost? I mean, just because I teach African American writers, but if you take away [James] Baldwin and [Langston] Hughes and [Lorraine] Hansberry, I mean, I could just-- then people would realize.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1220.0,1240.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1240.0,1242.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: How much of gay aesthetic sensibility, creation-- along with all the other identities-- have given to this world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1242.0,1251.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Sure. And I understand this is at first of its kind. And you also collect from different countries around the world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1251.0,1259.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1259.0,1261.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: You have-- where are your other chapters?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1261.0,1265.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Well, we only have one. I mean, the archives, this is one of its kind.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1265.0,1270.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1270.0,1270.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: But when we started, there was no other. Now there's an international gay and lesbian archives movement.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1270.0,1275.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1275.0,1276.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: So like in different countries now, I think there's some. There's one in at least 10 different countries. And one of the things I'm so proud about in my book is that it isn't just about the American lesbian scene, which is something we tend to do, but there's interviews with a Cuban woman and a Chilean woman and a Filipina woman and many other-- a Hawaiian woman. So, yeah, one of the things of the archives is that it's international.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1276.0,1306.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1306.0,1311.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I'm leaning forward to make sure I pick you up, because--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1311.0,1313.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Oh sure. [laugh] In recent events, just within the city, I noticed even though other lifestyles are a little bit more acceptable in this day and age on certain levels on certain political fronts, they aren't--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1313.0,1338.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Absolutely.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1338.0,1340.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: How do you feel about that? How does that affect you? I mean, we have just one situation that I call to mine is the parade that's coming up for St. Patrick's Day. I understand that they've even gone to the point of threatening to cancel and bring legal action that has been initiated. How do you feel about that? What type of effect does it have on you? How do you feel about that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1340.0,1375.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Well, it's very upsetting, but I just, I want to put the whole thing in a larger perspective. This is a time in which our country is-- I don't wanna over generalize, but many people in this country out of fear, out of economic disillusion, out of a sense of powerlessness are turning back to, unfortunately, an age old American tradition, which is finding scapegoats. And whether it be young black men in the subway or gay-- people they call faggots, or women who are too loud, or-- what happens in a time like this is that old fears and communities that are seen as threatening in some way become victimized again. And what the St. Patty's thing reminds me of is when in the old days, when [Alabama] Governor [George] Wallace stood in front of the Southern schools and said, \"we're not gonna let any black students in.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1375.0,1437.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I mean, \"we'll fight it with every\"-- you know. So I see this as a time when we have to fight even stronger. I'm not sure-- and I said this to you before-- that a lawsuit in this case is the right way to fight this because of what it will say about control over anybody's participation in anything. And maybe that, you know-- but I am very upset. And one of the things the archives is, is a meeting place. And like two weeks ago, one of the leaders of the gay and lesbian Irish group was sitting at the table and talking with [lesbian feminist organizer and former CARASA and ACT UP member] Maxine Wolfe and myself about strategies and things. So one of the things about working with the archives is that this is like a communication center, you know? So I could see the despair, because these are Irish people who don't really want to alienate, they don't want to lose their own community. So it's very painful for them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1437.0,1491.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah. It's a religion, it's--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1491.0,1493.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: It's a culture it's, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1493.0,1495.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah, it covers quite a bit. And I'm glad you pointed it out. Cause I often wonder what type of effect-- I mean, I know that sometimes it can move a person to be depressed, but I'm just trying to equate it with other experiences that might even evoke a sense of rage.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1495.0,1520.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Oh, there is rage. You're absolutely right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1520.0,1522.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: You know, and I don't know how that's manifested in your community.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1522.0,1529.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Well, I think, you know, you've seen ACT UP [the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power], you know, it's manifested in the same ways it is in other communities. Rage can either be turned outward or inward. I much prefer it to be turned outward than to the people-- but oh, there's rage and there's depression. And what happens is increased alienation. You know, what happens is people who already don't like themselves so much, because they've been told all their lives they're not fully human, you know, for those that don't have the strength to fight it, it'll make their situation worse, and there will be rage. And I am sure that there will be a taking to the streets in some way. We're no longer-- you know, since the '60s-- and I think even before-- gay people are not a quiet people. You know? And we don't go away quietly and we have many, we have legions of brutalized behind us. I mean, and we're just not going to accept some things anymore.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1529.0,1591.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: You've been quite constructive with your feelings and putting together this massive archives. [Can] you tell me how it started? I mean, when did you start collecting, or-- [laugh]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1591.0,1601.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: You know, I started collecting, as many lesbians did, as soon as I could read. And what I mean by that is we had so few reflections of ourself, you know, that there was a whole subculture, because they would be considered pornographic books. But they were paperbacks, which I'll show you. And they came out since the '40s. And they were written many times by lesbians, though under pseudonyms. And we would buy them in drug stores and we'd pass them on to one another, you know. But in 1972, I helped found a group called the Gay Academic Union [GAU], which was the first group in the country-- or maybe in the world, I don't know-- to try to organize gay and lesbian teachers and students on the city university campus. To protect them and to fight for curriculum changes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1601.0,1656.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And we're talking 1972. And out of that, we formed CR groups, which is a very old technique, which I think the women's movement should bring back. Do you know what CR groups are?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1656.0,1665.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: No. Can you tell us about them?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1665.0,1666.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Let me, because CR stands for consciousness raising.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1666.0,1669.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1669.0,1670.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And since part of the feminist philosophy was that the personal is political, they were based on the theory that if you put six women who'd never met each other before in a room together, and you met once a week and let's say you picked a topic a week. So let's say the topic would be anger or the topic would be, oppression at work or any[thing], and you met, you know, month after month for several years, that together you would form or forge a politic. And you would understand that your personal experiences were not just yours, because as you heard another woman and another one-- so a whole political sense would be born. And it really worked. And I think we need it again.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1670.0,1713.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: That also tends, it builds up a person's ego, a person who's--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1713.0,1717.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Absolutely.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1717.0,1717.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: --been persecuted by the society for so long. I would see how that would be necessary for the feminist, not just feminist, butch-femme--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1717.0,1730.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: No, no feminist. Right. When I say feminist, you know, I mean straight women as well. I mean a feminist who could be any kind of woman. It also, I'll tell you what, it changed lives. I mean, you know, all kinds of changes women did as a result. I meant left husbands, found husbands or, you know, they changed the way they took on the world because they had the support and they had this growing insight. And it was all peer. I mean, there wasn't like someone who was the group leader, you know, you struggled together. But so we formed a CR group in the early '70s and the group I was in, there were like three other women, including myself, three women who had come out before 1970 as lesbians. And we knew that there had been this rich culture, but if we tried to find it in a library or something, there were no markings.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1730.0,1777.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: So we decided to start something called called the Lesbian Herstory Archives.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1777.0,1783.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1783.0,1784.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Herstory is the feminist part, you know, to change HIStory--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1784.0,1787.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1787.0,1787.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: To HERstory. And how we started was we brought all our own collections. So I brought all my old paybacks. Mabel, the 89 year old woman who lived here, she had-- I mean, this is Mabel who went to the third grade in school, who was an orphan. Well, she had a huge collection of lesbian books. She had two [collections], black history and lesbian books, which she donated to the archives. So we all donated our own papers and our own things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1787.0,1815.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: The archives. And that's why this is-- [inaudible]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1815.0,1817.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: --Our little trips to Tennessee and other places in the back room of this huge apartment, which I then decided I would turn over to the archives. And that's why this is such a time. And my mother was living here. Another time I have to make a tape about w","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1817.0,1854.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm [affirmative] Okay. I'm also interested in the subject of women's history. As in women's studies and the history of women's studies, as opposed to the history of lesbian studies, and how they differ. And can you maybe tell us how we need to, as women understand each other's differences in each other's histories, you know, what can we both benefit? Things like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1854.0,1896.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yes. I'm glad you gave me the opportunity to talk about this because this is one of my-- something I feel very deeply about. The way I put it is I say, you know, all lesbians are part of women's history, but not all women's history is lesbian history or--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1896.0,1914.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1914.0,1914.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And what I mean by that is because this society has built such a myth about women. And a lot of it is based on a protectionism. What I mean by that is women are to be protected, you know, while at the same time they're being abused. But protected from the harsher things in life-- at least white middle class women. And so you have a long history, for instance, in, let's say the Greenwich village community of this city in the '40s and '50s of the police periodically sweeping the village streets of lesbians because they didn't want the women tourists who were wives and mothers coming and being affronted by the site of a masculine looking woman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1914.0,1957.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: That that's just a sym-- I mean, that was real, that happened. But it also, for me, is the best symbol of what we're talking about. In other words, that often lesbians, because we are a marginal people, a criminal people, will survive in areas of the society that cleanup campaigns wanna get rid of. And many times, because of religion because of other things, women-- other women, straight women-- are at the vanguard of these cleanup campaigns.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1957.0,1985.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1985.0,1986.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And this has led to years of brutalization of lesbian women. So what I'm saying is that I'm a feminist and I'm a woman, but I'm also a lesbian and sometimes our histories are the same and sometimes they're not. And they will lead us to take different political positions to write different stories. And I think we have to be very clear about this because, for instance, I'll take the anti-pornography battle at the moment:","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=1986.0,2012.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Now I know there are many, many feminists-- and also many lesbian feminists-- who believe that women need to be protected by the state from the effects of pornography, one of which they see [is] leading to abuse. And I say, as a working class lesbian who came out on the streets of the city, is that I don't want the state or the federal government to have any more power to police sexual behavior between adults than it already does, because I have seen it over the-- you know, I'm 51 years old, over at least 30 years of my life-- used to brutalize lesbian and gay people. So that's what I mean. We have to listen. Our realities will differ. It's just the same way [as how] I don't know-- I can intellectualize about what it feels like to be married and battle for autonomy in a marriage, but I have never experienced that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2012.0,2070.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2070.0,2071.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I would have to listen if I wanted to do political battle about that. I'd have to listen to know the best way to do it to the woman who experienced it. So I think sometimes it doesn't help us when we try to say, \"all women are the same,\" or, \"all our experiences are the same.\" It is not true. And that we will really grow in wisdom as a movement when we can say, \"well, you know, if we take this action, how will it impact on the working class lesbian? How will in impact on the single mother?\" I mean, we have-- you know, that's what I mean. But I feel very strongly that lesbian history is in many times different from women's history.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2071.0,2110.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative] And there, there are differences and of course there are similarities even--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2110.0,2117.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2117.0,2117.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Even with the type of relationships between the heterosexuals have as opposed to lesbians. But when we talk about pornography and violence against women, how has that manifested in the lesbian community?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2117.0,2138.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Let me just say it's complex. For instance, myself, I write things that people have called pornographic-- other women have called pornographic. And [North Carolina Senator] Jesse Helms would say anything about lesbian sex is pornographic. So I find that word is a difficult word, but certainly [pause] lesbians are women. And therefore in any society in which there is increased violence against women, there will be increased violence against lesbians. I mean [pause] I think that within our community there is less violence between us than there is between men and women in the sense that-- we have lesbian battering in our community. But nowhere to the numbers-- I just read a statistic that five women in every 24 hour period are either beaten, raped, or killed from [their] boyfriend, husband, you know, man-woman relationships. And, I think that's a stunning--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2138.0,2201.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yes it is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2201.0,2201.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: #NAME?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2201.0,2210.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: And even with the problems that heterosexuals experience and with violence and women, they do have services available to help them, a lot of support services, a lot of shelters--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2210.0,2225.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Shelters, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2225.0,2225.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: --that women can go to. Does the lesbian community have the same--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2225.0,2231.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: We're just beginning, we're just beginning, but you know, in the past-- lesbians have always worked in the forefront of the feminist movement. It was lesbians-- many lesbians-- who staffed the rape centers. It was many lesbians who staffed the battered women's shelters. But they could never be out as lesbians because one of the raps on these groups was, you know, \"oh, they're, anti-men, they're all staffed by lesbians.\" That's what the right wing would say. And that's what funding organizations would say. So lesbians had to really not come out as lesbians in order not to invalidate programs. And what's happening now is that there are different-- lesbian communities are setting up our own shelters, or at least raising the issue that lesbians might need shelters. But, you know, you see it's always a double edge sword.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2231.0,2276.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2276.0,2277.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: As long as a woman in the society feels insulted because somebody calls her a lesbian, or as long as a woman will say, I'm afraid of being a feminist, because someone will think I'm a lesbian, as long as women allow themselves to be separated from each other, lesbian women will always not have access to resources the way other women-- I mean, we all get very little, but you see what I mean? As long as it's a stigma that can be used to invalidate all women's services, then we're never gonna be able to serve either women or the lesbian community the way we should.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2277.0,2310.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: With this feeling of a restriction, in terms of lifestyle, I was trying to tie it in with how you picked some of the titles for your book, like A Restricted Country. And can you give us some background how you came up with the title?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2310.0,2327.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yeah, it's a good place to end too. Awesome. Because I guess I didn't know when I put the book together-- it didn't grow as a book. It was separate pieces. And then my publisher in fact had another title and [I] said, no, you know, I don't want that title. I want A Restricted Country. And I think I was thinking of restrictions on many levels-- and not just of myself, because actually I'm privileged in many ways. I mean, I have a place to live. I have a job, I have an education, I have a healthcare program. To say that in the United States of 1992, that means to be extremely privileged. But I was thinking where I started is being the daughter of a, basically a single mother. I mean, my father died before I was born. So I watched a basically uneducated woman try to raise two kids.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2327.0,2380.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: The experiences of antisemitism that I had, the experiences of racism that I observed, and then the really searing years of being a queer in the '40s and '50s, which are unlike anything that happens now. I guess the closest would be other countries or maybe very small towns, you know? And so for me, I got an education in what kills the human spirit, is how I put restrictions. And class, and race, and gender, and all the ways that tell a woman or a person \"you really don't deserve everything that life can give you.\" And I think like we were talking, that's why I teach in SEEK, you know? Again, to be a voice in opposition to the voice that takes things away. I wanna be on the side that nurtures. And it seems to me, we desperately need nurturing of all kinds in--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2380.0,2433.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2433.0,2434.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: --New York City, March, 1992.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2434.0,2439.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Thank you very much for your time. And we look forward to seeing these archives. Where are they located, going--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2439.0,2445.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: They're gonna go to the Park Slope section of Brooklyn. This is not to be published yet though, because there'll be people living there, but--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2445.0,2450.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2450.0,2451.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: --it will be in the park slope section of Brooklyn. And I will tell you Melissa, off the tape [laugh] and then in June, we hope to have a big opening and I'll invite you and maybe women from Women's Studies! I would love, you know, more women from the Que","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2451.0,2465.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2465.0,2466.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Do the kind of outreach that you've done. And I would like to reach out to them as well. So--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2466.0,2470.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Well, we hope this the beginning of something, you know--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2470.0,2473.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yeah. [laugh] Okay! [Removes microphone. What follows is from the following recording session.]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2473.0,2480.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Okay. I'm talking into the microphone. I'm with Melissa once again, and we are gonna see if the tape recorder's working.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2480.0,2486.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Let's see it's working and how far away I sound today. [laughs] Okay. Today is March 8th and we are here--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2486.0,2499.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: April, April--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2499.0,2500.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: April. [laugh]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2500.0,2502.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I wish it was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2502.0,2502.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: [We're] getting close to midterms. I'm losing it. Today's April 8th. And we're here for our final interview with Joan Nestle. And what I'd like for us to do, if we can, is start something I haven't really gone into much in our previous interviews-- would be your childhood. If you could just tell me maybe some history about your family, where they came, immigration, if you have--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2502.0,2531.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I don't even know","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2531.0,2533.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: --to tell us about--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2533.0,2534.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I will. I will tell you how it all started. At least for me. I was born to Regina Nestle, who is-- was-- is-- a Jewish woman whose family-- I know very little about my family. Where I come from. Because my father died before I was born, so I never knew him. He died in 1939 and I was born in 1940. And I have a brother who's five years older than me. So my mother raised myself and my brother alone. My mother had a sixth grade education and she worked as a bookkeeper her whole life. We didn't have any family members around us. I didn't know my grandparents, I didn't know aunts, I didn't know uncles, I didn't know cousins. My mother was the black sheep in the family, as they say. And [pause] so in that sense, it was very isolating and alone, but I did know one relative.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2534.0,2601.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: This is, I don't know why I said that-- my mother had a sister, a twin sister, Miriam, who was married and she didn't have any children. And this is important because I spent most of my growing up years with Miriam and Murray because my mother from time to time would lose her job. Or-- my mother was a gambler, and she would embezzle money. She did this twice and she would be fired. but she was such a good bookkeeper that she always got another job, but we were always in money problems. We were evicted several times. And so anytime there was money problems, I would go live with Miriam and Murray in Queens. And then my mother would get back on her feet and she'd open up an apartment. Which always meant she'd get a Bible and salt and a piece of bread, and we'd go into the new apartment until six weeks, months later, something else happened.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2601.0,2654.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: So I had a very chaotic childhood. And I think I said earlier, the thing that really gave me a sense of stability was school. I started work when I was 13. Was always-- the issue was I had to contribute to my support, whether it was to my aunt and uncle or to my mother. I had to leave my mother when I was 13, because she wanted me to leave school. And I was working in Klein, selling dollar dresses. And I knew I didn't wanna do that for the rest of my life. So when my mother said at 13 that she wanted me to work full time, I left her instead. Which was very hard for a young girl to do, and which my mother never forgave me. And I came here in Queens, which is really how I got to Queens College, to live with my aunt and uncle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2654.0,2704.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And I continued working. I worked in May's Department Store at night, and then [pause] went back to my mother and back and back, but eventually ended up going to Queens College because I was living here in Queens. So I have a very sparse family history. It was a working class family.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2704.0,2725.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Your mother was born here?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2725.0,2728.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: My mother was born here. Her mother and grandfather lived in Harlem, like around-- well, my mother was born in 1910 or 1912. So it would be two generations back. And I only learned this from death certificates.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2728.0,2749.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah. Wow.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2749.0,2750.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982/transcript/43587/annotation/183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I never knew-- I know my father worked as a furrier when he was alive, but I didn't know what my grandparents names were.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187982#t=2750.0,2759.83669"}]}]},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 3 of 3 - Nestle_03071992_B.mp3"]},"duration":2502.89631,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/187/983/small/--girard-aviary.jpg?1684785856","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/content/3/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/187/983/original/Nestle_03071992_B.mp3?1684785672","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2502.89631,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Full Transcript - April 8, 1992 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I wanted to know a little more about him when I turned 50. I found out that my grandparents' names were Wulf and Sadie, and that they came from Poland and Austria and Russia. And they must have immigrated here, like at the turn of the century.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=5.0,33.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: And they lived in Harlem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=33.0,34.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: My mother's family-- my mother grew up in Harlem, which was then an interracial neighborhood, mostly of poor and working people where she lived. And I grew up in the Bronx. I mean, the first 10 years of my life, I lived with my mother in the Bronx, and my brother. And then things when-- we got evicted from there, and--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=34.0,54.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: What part of the Bronx?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=54.0,55.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Gunhill Road. I'll tell you what part. I hadn't thought of it for so long until The New York Times started to feature a school in the Bronx, PS 94--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=55.0,65.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=65.0,66.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: #NAME?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=66.0,72.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Wow.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=72.0,72.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And they gave a map in The New York Times. I couldn't believe it. There was the delicatessen I used to get pickles [at]-- It was still there!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=72.0,77.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Wow.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=77.0,78.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Cause it was the corner, and I've often-- I wanna go back. I lived-- it was a little street called Queens College Place and right at the end of that street was the school. So it's still there, PS 94, that I went--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=78.0,89.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: In the Bronx, there was a street called Queens College Place?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=89.0,91.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Isn't that funny? And here I am. I'm telling you, I don't know, maybe there is a spiritual spirit out there. [laugh]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=91.0,100.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: You had mentioned, when you moved one time, seeing a Bible, with salt and bread--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=100.0,106.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yes. This was, I gather it's an old custom. I saw it as a Jewish custom, but I've heard that it's in many, you know, groups. But in order to sort of, how can I say? Bring good spirits to a new apartment. And I must have lived in 20 different places, because we were always having to leave. My mother would-- she'd start. I could see her now. She'd get this, you know, the red box of salt, a Bible, the Old Testament usually-- and my mother was not a religious person. This was the only religious thing I remember her doing. And a piece of bread, a loaf of bread or a piece of bread. And she put them in the cupboard. The cupboard could have absolutely nothing in it but there would be that. And that was sort of the way we started. And as a child, I always believed this time it was gonna work, you know, and always the same thing happened. It didn't work.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=106.0,156.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: But we always like to believe those things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=156.0,159.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=159.0,159.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: And you said that also she was a black sheep. Was there anything specifically--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=159.0,163.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I should say the white sheep.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=163.0,165.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Oh, the white sheep?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=165.0,166.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Ah, this language is so-- The reason, there's something-- My mother I gathered-- my mother never spoke much. My father's name was Jonas, I'm named after him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=166.0,177.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Oh, okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=177.0,178.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Was my mother was a mischievous young woman. She was sort of a feminist before her time. Only she wouldn't have called her[self] that. But you know, she was a rebel. So she, for instance, liked to smoke when she was young and she'd have to go up on the roof, you know? So he wouldn't yell at her, my father. But the really important thing is-- and I found this out only after she had died, and this is in my book-- but my mother late in her-- my mother always wanted to be a writer, but of course never had enough-- she felt she didn't have enough schooling and she was always working.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=178.0,213.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: But she, in the last part of her life, I had given her a tape recorder to help her write. And she started to write on the back of ledger sheets. My mother was a bookkeeper from the old days. So she did learn computer toward the end of her life, you know, the new ways.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=213.0,226.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=226.0,226.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: She had these, I dunno if you've ever seen them, they're called ledger books.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=226.0,229.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah. I've seen them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=229.0,231.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Right. So she'd take home ledger sheets and she wrote on them. Well, I didn't know this. My mother would show me things, but they were type things. But she was doing all this journal writing on these green stripe ruled ledger sheets. But when she died, I went to the hospital to get her things. And she had brought her writing with her to the hospital.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=231.0,251.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: She had no possessions. My mother had no possessions when she died, everything had been taken. She'd been evicted one more time and they just took everything. But she had her writing and I-- it took me a year after she died. I couldn't go near those pieces of paper until at least a year. And in that I discovered that at age 14, my mother had been gang-raped. And she writes about it very clearly. She had been babysitting for-- she had an older sister who had children already-- and she had been babysitting on Coney Island Beach. And while she was there, this young man came and started talking to her. And my mother writes how desperate she was for attention and some kind of love. And he made a date with her like a week later.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=251.0,308.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And my mother went to his apartment, and there were five other men, his friends, waiting. He was in his twenties. And after he had her, the rest of 'em-- and my mother writes at 14, if you can [imagine.] I mean, lying there trying to freeze her body. So he drove her home after that. And she writes about how she walked up the steps. And my mother-- my mother's father, I gather, was a very brutal man. And when she walked in, he started to beat her. And her mother stood between her and the father and said, \"this is my business.\" You know. \"Whatever has happened, I'll try to handle it with Regina.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=308.0,354.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Anyway, I gather she left home very soon after that. So when my mother met my father, who was quote, a \"respectable\" man-- she writes about this too-- she had to fake that she was a virgin because nobody-- she would never, he never would've married her. And she writes about how she-- another woman friend showed her something by use of a rubber band inserted that she could get blood to flow. I mean, and I don't think my mother's story by the way is so unique. I think if we really listen to women talk, our mothers-- that's why I wrote a piece, \"My Mother Liked to Fuck.\" Because the amazing thing to me in my mother's journal, in this ledger sheet journal, is that she said, after this experience, it didn't turn her off to sexuality and it didn't even-- she was angry at the, at these men, but she felt that sexuality was such a great gift. [audio cuts out, resumes:]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=354.0,411.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Okay. I think I was saying that what amazed me in my mother's journal was that [pause] in spite of the horrendous introduction to sexuality, that she fought for the right to be a sexual woman. And I mean, she obviously was a very wounded person. She was a person who desperately needed love and didn't get it. And the rest of my mother's life was a series of many lovers, male lovers, several battering relationships that were unbearable, unbearable to see. And at certain times my mother worked as a prostitute when she couldn't get work.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=411.0,459.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: So my mother's sexual life was both very \"unusual\" so-called for a woman. I don't know. I don't know what to say about it anymore. I think what it taught me really was [pause] that we put women in these social places like \"mother,\" \"grandmother,\" you know what I'm-- but within those socially defining labels, there are women. And women who've lived complex lives and have felt complex desires. The problem is there's no place for them to really talk about it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=459.0,500.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=500.0,501.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: So that's why I wrote \"My Mother Liked to Fuck\" because my mother, one thing she did was tell me about her desire. And in one sense, I didn't wanna hear it because I felt so exposed to her life anyway. I mean, and because we didn't have money, you know, I always knew when she had a lover when I was with her. And I knew when they were making love. But on the other hand, it was also a legacy about women's sexual complexity and also women's sexual autonomy, because the-- and that may sound odd, but sex in one sense, kept my mother alive just as it almost killed her.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=501.0,540.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: That's interesting. And you also, you, I imagine you had a brother too. Are you two close? Were you close during that time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=540.0,550.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: No. It's very hard for me to talk about. And he's a very disturbed-- and my father's death really-- [pause] Well, I don't-- my father's death really threw my brother. And he was a disturbed young boy. And then way we grew up didn't help either, because in those days the doctors believed in something called the Oedipal Theory. I mean, they really believed it. So when my brother-- my brother tried to commit suicide at a very early age. And when my mother took him to the doctors, they said, \"the problem is there's too many women in the house.\" Meaning my mother and myself. And I was like three years old. \"Send him away.\" And that's why my mother embezzled money the first time. It wasn't because of gambling. It was because the doctor said he had to go to a school for disturbed children or to a military academy. I mean, terrible stories. And she didn't have the money for it. And her bosses wouldn't give her the money. And so my mother did what she did best, which is she managed the books, you know, but none of it helped. My brother went into the army when he was 15. He finished high school in the army. My mother forged his age. And I really-- he was never home since, and he is not a very nice man. So I stay away from him. But I don't want this to sound like a victim story. [pause] I had an unusual childhood. How can I say this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=550.0,645.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Well, I-- no. I didn't have an unusual childhood. My childhood reflected the chaos that people without money or with emotional concerns and don't know, you know, that don't know how to get help. You know what I mean? Would fall-- I don't think when I was going to middle class schools, let me put it this way. When I was living with my aunt and uncle, they lived in what was a beginning, like lower middle class neighborhood in Bayside. So when I went all my friends had two parents, right? Now we are talking 1950. All my friends had two parents. They never knew how much money their fathers made, you know, whereas I knew everything. I mean, I knew every subpoena my mother got, I knew every household finance loan that she took. But I really see it now as a class difference.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=645.0,706.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=706.0,707.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: In some ways. So that's why class is a very important thing to me in my writing and my work. For me being of the class background I was meant there was much less the veneer of protection. You know, I knew when we-- when I came up from school and saw an eviction sign, I knew what that was. When my mother and I hid under beds because the bill collectors were flashing lights through our windows and they were gonna take back those beds, I knew what that was. And there's a part of me that now would say, I wish I had a safer childhood. And then there's the other part that says, I never would've done the work I've done in the world if I hadn't had that childhood.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=707.0,749.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Right. If you could divide your life up into turning points or things--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=749.0,759.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yes. I understand.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=759.0,761.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: How would you define the turning points?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=761.0,766.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Very good question, Melissa.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=766.0,770.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Okay. I think it's an excellent question, because I've never thought about it that way. And now, now it's like, at 52 it's a good time. I think the first turning point I told you about. The first turning point was when my mother asked, told me I must leave school to go to work. And I said no. And that somehow, [that] no, where I got the courage to do it, I was saying, I won't survive in this world if I don't take care of myself. So that was the first turning point and I was 13. I think the next major turning point was the first time I touched a woman. And I could see, I know that [as] if I see it as clearly as if it were in front of me and that would've been when I was around 18. So that would've been 1958.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=770.0,817.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I mean, the first time I touched a woman, knowing that as touching her, I would, I was gonna be a lesbian. And we were in Central Park Zoo and there were these big old-- the old zoo-- these big boulders. And I was sitting-- in fact, and I'd met this woman at Queens College, cuz I was in Queens College. And Susan was sitting alongside of me and she'd already told me about her love for me. And I just said, you are crazy and da, da, da, da. And then as we were sitting there, she put her head in my lap and I can see it was like slow motion. And my hand was raised and I know she wanted me to stroke her hair. And I know that in my head, I said, Joan, if you stroke her hair, if you let your hand fall and touch her hair, that's it. You are that horrible thing they call a lesbian. And I did let my hand fall.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=817.0,867.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=867.0,868.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And so that was it. Another turning point was when I went to Selma, when I went south to do-- I have to back up, they all go together. Political turning points. In Queens College, I met a group of people who [were] what we call red diaper babies. So this is, again, 1958, '59, '60. They were the children of American communists of the '40s who had been purged from the Communist Party. And these people gave me the most important education I ever had here. They took me to speakers. They took me to concerts. And one of the most important things is this was--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=868.0,908.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: This was on campus?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=908.0,908.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: On campus. Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=908.0,910.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay. About what year?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=910.0,911.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: 1958, 1959. And we could date it because I'll give you external evidence. The political turning point was when they took me-- when I started to educate myself about the House Un-American Activities Committee, this was the McCarthy period. Now I had friends who were the children of communists and I had met their parents and they were all working people, good people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=911.0,932.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And my friends were telling me about relatives that had killed themselves during the McCarthy period. So a real turning point for me was when we got on the bus to go to Washington, to protest the House Un-American Activities Committee. And we were going there because Paul Robeson Jr.-- So we could actually find the date-- and Joann Grand [phonetic], who were two African American, young people who had defied the American government by going to China. And at that time it was a crime to go to China. Okay. And they were being called up before the House Un-American Activities Committee and being accused of being subversives. And we went to give them support. And I saw a face of the American government, the McCarthy face. And that changed me. Okay. That, and then when I went to Selma and Montgomery, and that was 1965, '64, for the March on [Montgomery.] That was a turning point in the sense of my really feeling that people can make history. People can change history. Working people, poor people can change things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=932.0,1001.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And that's 1964 and then 1966, another turning point, was when I came to SEEK.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1001.0,1012.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1012.0,1013.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Because I was working at sort of editorial jobs and social work jobs. And then I got a call. Someone said to me, someone I'd known, that there was this new program starting at Queens College and they needed a teacher of writing and would I consider it? And if I would, I had to call back by 12 o'clock that night and I was living on the Lower East Side. And I remember thinking-- this is 1966-- thinking, Joan, if you don't make that telephone call, you'll never get an opportunity to teach in college. And I made it and I have been here ever since.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1013.0,1045.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Wow.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1045.0,1045.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And that was a real turning--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1045.0,1046.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: [inaudible] at Queens College was a friend had told you--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1046.0,1048.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yeah, it was a friend who was work-- The SEEK program had been in existence one term before I, and they were trying to hire more teachers. So then I came. And then--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1048.0,1060.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Was it--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1060.0,1062.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Well, I guess these are milestones is a better word than turning points, but they're milestones. Then the next one was when I started the Lesbian Herstory Archives and that would've been in 1973. And I'll just give you one more Melissa.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1062.0,1076.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Sure. [laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1076.0,1077.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: In 1978 I became ill. And I've been ill ever since. It's a chronic illness. But in 1978, because of my illness, I started writing. Friends formed a lesbian illness support group and came to me and we wrote, and that's when I wrote my first piece. So there is all the parts. You see SEEK in 1966, writing in 1978, the archives in 1973, loving women in 1959 [laughs]. And knowing that I had to take care of myself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1077.0,1115.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: What was your first piece that you--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1115.0,1117.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: The first piece was a piece called Marsha's Room. It's turned to it's Mara's Room because Marsha wouldn't let me use it under her real name.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1117.0,1126.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1126.0,1126.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: So that's the first story I ever wrote. And that got published and then I've been writing ever since. [sighs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1126.0,1137.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: When you first came to the SEEK program here at Queens College, was the program similar to what it is now? Or what type of program or students were they? About the same as they are now?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1137.0,1152.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Okay. It's very fitting that you ask that because I'm in charge of putting together an exhibit on the 25 year old history of SEEK. And really it's a history of an educational vision. No, it wasn't the same in the sense of this. When SEEK started, when I came to it, the whole administration of SEEK was white. The teachers were all white. Our student population was a hundred percent Black and Puerto Rican, which made it a very typical liberal program. In other words, whites controlled and people of color receive services, but they didn't therefore control, like what was taught in the classrooms, you see? And what changed that was very quickly because of what was happening in the '60s. This became very clear that this was a colonial setup and a group of concerned people started to put pressure on the administration and they started to hire Black and Puerto Rican teachers who then put even more pressure, and formed something called the Black and Puerto Rican Student and Faculty Caucus.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1152.0,1224.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1224.0,1225.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And they changed the SEEK program. And they changed it through actually sitting in on our white director's office, moving furniture out. We demonstrated. That's the time when police were called on campus. When our students were beaten on campus, I mean, there's a tremendous SEEK history. And then it changed around 1969, '70, It started to be changing into the program it is now. But the difference now is-- this is a sad difference-- is we have fewer African American students now than we ever had. When we started, we had something like 85% African American students. And what's happening is the other immigrant groups are pushing out African-American young people who desperately need this program. They need it now more I think, than ever. But--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1225.0,1275.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: You think that they're applying less than they were before, to colleges?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1275.0,1278.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: We used to do-- Yeah. I think that the devastation of communities through drugs--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1278.0,1286.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Drugs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1286.0,1287.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And the economic thing, it's very hard. Like we used-- we pay a stipend. Well, in the '60s and '70s, a stipend meant something. It doesn't mean anything now. Also the amount of cynicism and despair. We need to do aggressive recruitment. We need to go-- we used to do this. We used to have street corner recruiters.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1287.0,1306.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1306.0,1307.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: See a group of young people hanging out in the street corner, go up, give them a SEEK thing. Talk. We're starting to do that again. I think it's just showing how entrenched racism is and the sense of despair that no matter what changes this country goes through for social betterment, African Americans, it seems to me, are never included in it. And so they keep-- for instance, now Asian students, Asian Americans that are coming, immigrants, who economically, you know, they get an economic footing. I just think race is the biggest obstacle in this country.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1307.0,1345.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1345.0,1347.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And that's why I was talking to you. So I went out and got [former Professor of Political Science at Queens College] Andrew Hacker's book, you know, after saw you and I've been reading it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1347.0,1354.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: It's interesting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1354.0,1355.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yes. And it's as you said. I mean, it's so clear everything he says, you can see it. But it may be also because we're in Queens and the other SEEK programs-- but the other SEEK programs don't teach as much as we do, as many courses. The Queens College SEEK was a Marxist program, which is a dirty word now, but we were set up as a Marxist program. And that got us into a lot of trouble with central SEEK. And we were always fighting that. But you know, we had Independentistas [Puerto Rican independence activists] on our staff, we had political exiles on our staff. It was really-- our heyday was the seventies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1355.0,1389.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And now it's as if with multiculturalism, you know, how can I put it? When we started, nobody on this campus wanted our students here. And they didn't want us here. Queens College was 99% white in 1966. And our program was 99% nonwhite. And you can imagine. Now we got a new building. We get a new building in 1992 and it's not a coincidence. You see what I'm saying? Because Queens College now wants to put on a multicultural face, you know? And the student population itself is more multicultural in the sense of Asian and and Central American immigrant students. So we have to work to keep our radical vision alive, which was [pause] to help our students critique the society they live in. Not just to learn skills, but to critique, to make things better.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1389.0,1445.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Are you gonna bring up some of these things in the celebration coming up?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1445.0,1449.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I sure hope so. I mean, that's what the teach-in is about. But that's what the exhibit is. Why I'm excited about the exhibit is it's like me putting together my Lesbian Archives life and my SEEK life because yeah, in this exhibit, we are gonna show photographs of the police on this campus.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1449.0,1464.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Oh, you are.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1464.0,1464.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: We're going to-- At one point the college got out a John Doe and a Jane Doe writ against us and that's like South Africa. What that meant was-- and we actually have a copy of the writ listing-- and this is gonna be on the exhibit-- listing the names of students who were singled out. And of faculty. Saying that if three or more SEEK faculty or students were seen talking together on this campus, they would be arrested.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1464.0,1493.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: And this grew out of--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1493.0,1494.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Out of our demonstrations on campus. So it was a way to control-- I mean, but that was literally, it was the same kind of law that is enacted in South Africa, against Blacks in South Africa in terms of the power. It's called the-- you can't, there's a word for it, but-- come together. Anyway, that will be in the exhibit, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1494.0,1513.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: And what was the-- was there any particular demonstration? Or was there series of demonstrations?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1513.0,1517.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yeah, we had a whole week of demonstrations.And as I said, this, a group of us moved furniture out. But a lot of student participation and a lot of faculty participation. And then at one point there was a march around the campus and some tables were overturned in the library. And demands were being said. This was a time when we were trying to change SEEK from being a liberal program, which means all-white in control and others receiving what the whites think they should get, to a truly self-determining educational experience for people of color. And to do that, we had to fight. We had to move, literally, some people out. And so you'll see this. Riot police were on this campus. It's quite something. I'm very proud of that time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1517.0,1568.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah. I'd like to see the exhibit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1568.0,1570.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: You will. I hope everybody will. And I hope I still have a job when it's all [done.]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1570.0,1577.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: When we were talking previously, there were some things I wanted to expand on further. Like your archives, the Lesbian Herstory Archives. I was interested in how you came about the material that you had. Was it donated or, you know, how did--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1577.0,1598.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Generated.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1598.0,1599.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: You said there was a woman you had mentioned, Mabel [Hampton], which I hadn't had asked you much about. I know you had mentioned her and I like more information on her. And was there any funding involved, or this was this simply a project that you funded yourself? Or how did you get help or that kinda of thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1599.0,1626.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Okay, I'll start. [laughs] Let me tell you how it started. It started two ways, as things do, in a philosophical way and then sort of in a physical way. The philosophical way came from my whole years as a criminal in the society. That means my life in the bars, which was the only place we could go in the '50s and '60s. The people I had met there, the wonderful women, the oppression, the beatings, the bathroom line, the humiliations.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1626.0,1660.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Did you experienced any violence?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1660.0,1661.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle:  Mm-hmm. [affirmative] I experienced violence from a group of men who'd waited outside the bar, waiting for women to come out. Since I was a femme, since we were recognizable-- we were butch-femme women. Nowadays women look, you know, everybody wears pants, you can't tell. But this was-- and I was slapped and held while my lover was beaten in front of me. I saw women, butch women with their pants-- police doing this-- taking their pants down in front of people to humiliate, saying, \"you wanna be a man? You think you're a man? We'll show you.\" Anyway, you don't forget those things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1661.0,1704.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: This was in New York?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1704.0,1705.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: This was in New York down in the [Greenwich] Village. So that was what was behind my philosophical reason that that should never happen again. But then also I was helping to found an organization, I may have said this on the other tape, called the Gay Academic Union in 1972, which was really radical. It was a coming together of lesbian and gay students and faculty in the city university to try to protect gay people in the university and to change curriculums and all the way back then. And out of that, we formed a consciousness raising group. And then we formed the archives. So to answer your first question, how we got materials is that we simply got the word out. And first thing we did was pool our own private collections and Mabel Hampton who had for years and years collected what we call lesbian paperback, survival literature, donated her collection. I donated everything I had, six or seven other women did. And then--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1705.0,1768.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: This was just material that was collected--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1768.0,1770.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: In our own homes. In other words, you know, because we could never trust the-- we couldn't see ourselves in the media. We were ugly in the media. You know, we were, were prison wardens. You know, there is a myth. There has been a long and rich lesbian culture. There have been books written by lesbians, way before the '70s, but not known to the vast majority. And so we all had our own copies, you know. Well, we decided we're gonna bring them all together and make them available. And that's what we did. And there were-- the '70s was the time of the early feminist presses and things were starting. So it was a good time to do it. And then we did a slideshow based on what we had and we took the slideshow all around the country. And every time we spoke, women would bring more things, and more things. And we wrote to all the lesbian periodicals, and we just got the word out. And now there's a collection that basically can't even fit into a four story brownstone. It's so big. And also--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1770.0,1828.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Do you have any in different-- are they in different languages, or--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1828.0,1832.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yes. Oh no, we're an international-- very good question. We're an international archives, that's very important. One of the reasons the archives exist is to break the myth of \"who lesbians are.\" And I grew up with that myth. The only two lesbians I was allowed to know about was Gertrude Stein and Sappho. Well, they didn't talk to me as a Jewish working class woman. And then that-- so, we're an international collection with materials from over 50 different countries and at least 20 or 15 different languages. I would say. We usually say, send us something in the language you make love in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1832.0,1869.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And how we paid for things-- also again, because I'm both a socialist and had been colonized, I felt-- One principle of the Archives is we'll never take money from the government. That we wanna show that this is what women can do for themselves. And Deborah Edel and myself, who started the archives, we tithed ourselves, which meant we paid for it by-- besides paying the rent, cause the archives was in our apartment-- we took a certain percentage of our salary and gave it to the archives. And that's how we could get things for it. And so that's how it grew. And that's how it got its building through no money from the government, but dimes and dollars from thousands of women all over the country and the world. Now Mabel, Mabel, Mabel.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1869.0,1920.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: [Earlier] you were talking about her.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1920.0,1920.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1920.0,1921.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: And you touched on-- well, she seemed like a very important person.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1921.0,1926.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yes, she was. In my life too. Because when I said I didn't have any real family, Mabel was my family. Just like Deborah Edel is my family, my lover for 10 years. Mabel Hampton and her lover of 35 years, her wife as she would've called her, Lillian Foster, who lived on 169th Street in the Bronx in the same building for 35 years. Until it burned down. I knew Mabel from when I was around 10 years old. Mabel had come at one point when my mother had money and had to work. She had met Mabel in a luncheonette and Mabel then was working as a domestic worker. And my mother asked her if she would come to work for her and gave her the keys. And so I knew Mabel when I was 10. When I was around 12, Mabel always was reading lesbian paperbacks, lesbian stories.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1926.0,1994.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1994.0,1995.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And Mabel always wore men's sort of jockey shorts and stuff. And I remember doing the wash with her and doing these things, and I knew we didn't have a man in the house and I'd see these men's shorts. And then one day I saw the book she was reading. And I was already suspecting who I was. And by that time, my mother and Mabel had formed this-- Mabel no longer worked for us or worked for my mother, just-- and there are real issues there. It's hard to talk about. But she and my mother became friends and since-- that ended up with Mabel lending my mother money a lot of the time, I mean. But they became buddies, particularly around going to the race track together. Right? And playing the numbers together, I mean. [pause] And I think Mabel was in love with my mother in some ways. I mean there was a real love. I mean the desire love. And what happened was when I-- my mother found out I was a lesbian. She found out because she found me in bed with a woman. I mean she came home one day and I was in bed with a woman, with Susan.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=1995.0,2069.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: My mother-- I only found this out much later-- threatened to, she was gonna kill herself because how could she have this terrible thing as a lesbian daughter. And Mabel really, you know, sort of said, \"look, I'm a lesbian. And I,\" you know, and anyway, somehow they worked it out together. And Mabel became my confidant. I mean, she was the one when I met my lovers, it was Mabel-- we'd go to visit Mabel and Lillian. And so, and we'd socialize, we'd go to the-- Harlem had these wonderful drag balls that we would go to together. So then I left home. And over the years I, again, I saw a Mabel socially, but then Ms. Hampton is, um [pause] Well, what first happened was there was a fire in their apartment, Lillian and Mabel's apartment in the Bronx. And by that time I was living with Deborah down on 215. And Mabel-- [sound of door] Oh, these are gonna be students. I went-- [audio cuts out. Cuts back in:]`","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2069.0,2135.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: The fire in, this was the time when people were setting fire to real estate in poor people's neighborhoods, you know, there was a whole time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2135.0,2141.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2141.0,2141.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: For insurance purposes. So their apartment, we got a call three o'clock in the morning. And Mabel and Lilian came to live with Deb and I, and that was the most incredible intergenerational, intercultural experience. And Lillian died soon after, and then Mabel came to live with me. And the last five or six years of her life-- see, Mabel's apartment was this like five flight walk up. And there was no way she could do that. She had a stroke. And so she sort of half-lived with us the last five or six years. She'd go to her apartment every once in a while. But the last three years, she lived full time. We lived together.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2141.0,2178.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And so I could nurse her through two strokes. And then she died with me, with us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2178.0,2184.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: You and your--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2184.0,2184.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Lee, at that time it was Lee. And Lee was with me when she had her second stroke. And I'll never forget the experiences I learned because Mabel was in a wheelchair the last year of her life. And we had, you know, we did everything families do. We had a home care attendant, things that you do. But I was Mabel's family. And we'd go out together and I'd be pushing her wheelchair. And people could not understand how a white woman could be pushing, taking care of an older Black person. And I realize, because I look in my neighborhood and there are Black women taking care of older white people. It was this-- nobody, even in the emergency room when we had to-- sometimes she had a very bad nose bleed-- people couldn't hook up that we were together.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2184.0,2234.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: That was such a lesson to me about things, you know? But it was, everyone-- Mabel became the queen of the house because she loved the Archives, of course. And she loved \"the girls\" as she called them. And every Thursday night when we had these work sessions, Mabel would hold court. But I just want to say, Ms. Hampton was a figure in her own right. She had been a participant in the Harlem Renaissance. She'd been gay her whole life. She'd been an orphan since age three, raised herself, knew all the famous, Black performers of the Harlem Renaissance and, all the gay ladies like Ethel Waters. And--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2234.0,2272.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: That's Ms. Hampton?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2272.0,2274.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yeah. I call her Ms., I feel disrespectful saying Mabel. Ms. Hampton. And she had been a performer, a dancer, an entertainer, a domestic worker, a hospital worker, and then late in her life, when she was living with us, she became a gay rights activist. She was always a Black rights activist. She had her whole-- besides her lesbian books, she had all her books on Black history. Years and years before, this was. She was a Rosicrucian. She was an Eastern Star. She went to 25 different senior citizen centers.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2274.0,2309.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Wow.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2309.0,2309.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I mean, this was a woman with a total life, and a love of life, and a generosity, that anyone who met her was enriched. And I'll just tell you one funny story and then we'll end because this is-- When we were getting home care people for Mabel, Mabel never made any bones about the fact that she was gay. And this is an 87 year old woman we're talking about. So I'll never forget. There was this one woman came to the door-- and Mabel always interviewed, you know, who, because she was the one who would be most intimately involved with the healthcare worker.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2309.0,2345.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: So this woman came, and you know what the house looked like, Melissa, right? It's the Archive. So I opened the door and here is this woman and she takes two steps in and she starts looking around and she must have seen the word lesbian or something. And she said, \"oh, I don't think I'll be comfortable working here.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2345.0,2361.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2361.0,2362.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: So then Ms. Hampton came out and I said, \"well, this is Ms. Hampton, who you will be caring for. Why don't I just leave you alone? And you can talk about things,\" right? I went away for two hours. I come back, the healthcare worker and Mabel are sitting in Ms. Ham-- in Mabel's room, talking, talking, talking, talking. And finally the woman says, \"oh, I have to go.\" And she comes to me and she says, \"by the way, is there a way I can join this organization?\" [laughs] And I said to her, \"wait a minute. I don't think you understand the nature of this organization.\" She said, \"I do, Ms. Hampton explained it to me. You know, I'm very bored with my husband. I would love to meet other people.\" [laughs] That was the magic of Mabel Hampton. I mean, she-- anyway.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2362.0,2398.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: I just have one last question. If you could go on from here, in terms of your goals, and maybe look forward from this point onward, how do you think you could maybe consolidate some of your achievements, or at least your goals? What would be your mountain top, so to speak?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2398.0,2424.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Oh, my mountain top.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2424.0,2428.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah. [laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2428.0,2428.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Well, I just say that when it works, the greatest pleasure I get-- ONE of the greatest pleasures I get is from what happens in a classroom. Not a classroom-- what happens in a room with people trying to understand something together. So I would like to be able to do more of that. I would like to be in the theater.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2428.0,2451.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: You mean in a play?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2451.0,2451.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: I'm gonna be in-- I have a cameo role. I play a madame of the turn of the century in a turn of the century play. It's type casting. [laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2451.0,2458.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: The Love Affairs of an Old Maid.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2458.0,2460.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2460.0,2460.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2460.0,2463.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: And then I would like to write more. I mean, basically I am very happy with my life. I have not done anything-- I've been lucky enough to say, to do what I believe in. I've taught. [sighs] I've had the privilege of being with young minds and hearts for 25 years. And that is an incredible gift. So maybe I've been on my mountain.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2463.0,2493.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Melissa Thomas: Yeah. That's great. Thank you so much.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2493.0,2496.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983/transcript/43588/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Joan Nestle: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/91774/file/187983#t=2496.0,2502.89631"}]}]}]}