{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/3775t3gf58/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Mike Wenger, Stan Shaw and Mark Levy Oral History"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eIn this interview, Mike Wenger and Stan Shaw are joined by Mark Levy, the Queens College Student Association President from 1962 to 1963. The three discuss not only the impact of the Student Help Project, but also the outcome of larger student activist movements that were happening in subsequent years. Wenger, Shaw, and Levy recall other student-driven civil rights activities that followed the Student Help Project, like the 1964 Mississippi Freedom Summer, and the campus Freedom Week and Freedom Fast initiatives.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eAlso in the conversation, Wenger, Shaw, and Levy reflect on the media’s role in televising social unrest during the 1960s which motivated student engagement, and the connection between past and present publicization of contemporary racial issues in American society.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["http://digitalarchives.queenslibrary.org/search/browse/40443"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2020-10-15 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Tags"]},"value":{"en":["Queens College Alumni"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Video"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Michael Wenger (Interviewee)","Stan Shaw (Interviewee)","Mark Levy (Interviewee)","Annie Tummino (Interviewer)","Victoria Fernandez (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Interview conducted as part of the Queens College \"Student Help: Lived Experience\" Project."]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["1961-1969 (temporal)","Queens (New York, N.Y.); Queens College (New York, N.Y.); Prince Edward County (Va.) (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eIn this interview, Mike Wenger and Stan Shaw are joined by Mark Levy, the Queens College Student Association President from 1962 to 1963. The three discuss not only the impact of the Student Help Project, but also the outcome of larger student activist movements that were happening in subsequent years. Wenger, Shaw, and Levy recall other student-driven civil rights activities that followed the Student Help Project, like the 1964 Mississippi Freedom Summer, and the campus Freedom Week and Freedom Fast initiatives.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eAlso in the conversation, Wenger, Shaw, and Levy reflect on the media\u0026rsquo;s role in televising social unrest during the 1960s which motivated student engagement, and the connection between past and present publicization of contemporary racial issues in American society.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA\u0026nbsp;Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/111/784/small/ScreenShot10.15.2020_Interview.jpg?1619100764","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - SHPInterview_Wenger_Shaw_Levy_10152020_(1).mp4"]},"duration":7181.36,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/111/784/small/ScreenShot10.15.2020_Interview.jpg?1619100764","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/111/784/original/SHPInterview_Wenger_Shaw_Levy_10152020_%281%29.mp4?1619100689","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":7181.36,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Full Interview Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : Hi, this is Annie Tummino. I'm Head of Special Collections and Archives for Queens College, City University of New York. Today is October 15th, 2020, and we are conducting an oral history round table interview. And this is going to be contributed to the Queens Memory Project and to Queens College Special Collections and Archives. And it is part of an effort to document the lived experience of the Student Help Project, which was a civil rights project led by Queens College students in the early to mid-1960s. So today we're just going to start by kind of going around and introducing ourselves. I guess, Stan, do you want to go first?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2.0,47.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Hi. Stan Shaw, Class of '65 and Professor Emeritus, University of Connecticut.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=47.0,59.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : Mike, you want to go next?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=59.0,62.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Yeah. Mike Wenger, Queens College Class of 1965.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=62.0,67.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : And Mark?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=67.0,70.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Mark Levy, Queens College Class of 1964 and president of the Student Association, '62-'63.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=70.0,79.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : And Victoria?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=79.0,82.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nVictoria Fernandez : I'm Victoria Fernandez, the Freda S. and J. Chester Johnson Civil Rights and Social Justice Fellow for Queens College.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=82.0,89.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : Excellent. So I should start by saying, this is kind of a part two to a first interview that was conducted with Mike and Stan. So there's more information there and these are some follow-up questions and we wanted to bring in Mark Levy, who was the first person to donate civil rights materials related to Queens College to Special Collections and Archives, and kind of really help found our focus on collecting on the Civil Rights Movement as it relates to Queens College. And so he's going to add in his own thoughts as well about this period and this project specifically.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=89.0,124.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : So I guess before we get started, Mark really nicely compiled some information about what was happening in the world during this period of time to help jog people's memories and to help contextualize some of the events that we're going to be talking about. And so I thought it might be nice just to share that with the screen to help give some shape to some of the specifics that we're going to be talking about.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=124.0,154.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Annie, those, this list of dates and events, really highly personal. I didn't try and cover the whole world. I think what I, I've told people and this somewhat reflects it. Growing up in New York City and being born in 1939, I did not grow up in a progressive-activist or a red diaper family. My family was a middle-class family in Manhattan, in New York City and not political at all, and very much both angry around Holocaust issues, which, and antisemitic issues that were very important, but very afraid of the McCarthy environment that we were growing up in. And so when I got to Queens College, I came as a quote unquote liberal but my politics changed both around activities that I got involved in and around people that I met and who influenced me, both students and faculty. So these dates on this sheet are dates that were significant to me. You know, for example, the anti-HUAC demonstrations in San Francisco, you know. Other people may—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=154.0,243.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : Mark can you, can you say for people that might not know what that stands for?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=243.0,246.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Okay. The House Un-American Activities Committee was a continuation of McCarthy-like attacks on all progressives, who did anything too, you know, social rights, social justice, they were all called communists, et cetera, et cetera, and attacked and lost jobs and got fired, et cetera. And HUAC was holding hearings and one of the first demonstrations by students that I became aware of, that's why I included it. One of the first that I became aware of was when some students in San Francisco protested outside, I think it was the town hall, city hall in San Francisco where hearings were being held and they were washed down the steps by water hoses. But it was one of the first demonstrations and reactions to demonstrations of people my age that I had a sense the world was changing. There were other things that then led me to understand that, but I included that because it was something that came into my awareness and, and made me see, start to see things very differently.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=246.0,322.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : Thanks. So I guess, just to reiterate some of these things that were happening right around the time that Mike, Stan, and Mark would have entered Queens College, where that the Civil Rights Movement was starting to take off, there was actual public resistance to McCarthyism. And so it's right kind of at this pivotal moment. So I guess Mark, if you want to kind of, I guess we'll put that away for now, and then we'll go back to asking our first question.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=322.0,351.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Yeah, I'll stop share [unclear]—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=351.0,356.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : Yeah, if you hit stop share. Perfect. So I guess keeping that in mind, what was Queens College like when you were students? What were your first impressions of other students, the faculty, campus life? What was sort of the feeling of the campus at that time? And I'd love to just hear from each of you about this.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=356.0,378.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : My first impression arrived as a freshman. The theater was doing—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=378.0,387.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Excuse me, what year was that?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=387.0,389.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : That was 1961. Thank you. The theater, Queens College Theater, was doing a production of Brigadoon and I was enamored with the wonderful accents that the members of the cast were using all during the day on campus. And my first activity on campus as a young freshman was working in the crew backstage at Brigadoon. Great fun. Still love that show.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=389.0,427.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : I actually, I came to Queens College in 1961, but I had spent two years at Cornell before that in civil engineering. And I didn't succeed very well, as a civil engineering student and transferred to Queens College, partly because I wasn't going to be a civil engineer, and partly because my parents ran out of money to keep me at Cornell.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=427.0,460.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : And my first impressions were the difference between Cornell, with all of its dormitories and all of that, and Queens College, a commuter school. And I noticed a number of differences that I'll just put out there. One is that the people at Queens College, the students seemed much more serious to me. Cornell is mostly students from wealthy families and they, they were serious about their studies, but not overly so. And students I ran into at Queens College were often the first in their family to go to college and they were more serious. I, my perception was they were more serious about their studies.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=460.0,519.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : The other thing I noticed is that at Cornell where students lived on campus, it was easier to be part of the college life because there was nothing else. And it was easier to maintain friendships because we're all there together. At Queens College, that was different. And actually many of my closest friends are from Queens College, but that had more to do with the activities we were in than it did with the college atmosphere. And the other thing that I'd say is that there was a lot more frivolity at Cornell than at Queens. At Cornell, you know, every Saturday was a football game and every night was hanging out at a college hangout, that sort of thing. And that was much different than Queens College, where you came to class and then you left. So I didn't have much sense of what was going on at Queens College until after I met Stan. And even then, it didn't have much to do with any other activities other than the civil rights activities on campus.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=519.0,617.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Some of my experiences were the same and some different. I came to Queens College campus for the second time in 1960. I started at Antioch in 1957, then I was there to 1959 and then like Mike, I had to drop out because my father had gone bankrupt and lost his job and I couldn't afford tuition, even though it was a work study school. So I dropped out for a year and then I came Queens. And the reason I came to Queens is because when I was a high school student and was looking at colleges, Queens College was like a, out, you know, out of the city, rural campus. It's hard to imagine if you see the place now. But goodness gracious, I lived in Manhattan and they had trees and grass and the backside of the campus was a farm. You know, it used to be New York City Agricultural High School. I think there's still remnants of that, but they had animals and they grew corn and all that other kind of stuff.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=617.0,688.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : So it was like really being off-campus, my impression in '57. Then when I came back in 1960, it was there. Two quick events in 1960 that sort of catapulted me to the changes of awareness and relationships that we're talking about here. One is, like Mike said, you know, you get certain impressions from your first set of colleges and then you arrive at Queens College. Well, Antioch was a small school, it was intimate. Teachers really cared about the students, whatever the subject was, the student was more important than, you know, going to graduate school in the professors, you know, field. And they were very practical. They were fairly progressive. Actually my senior advisor as a freshman was a guy named Steve Werner, who comes back into this story at other times.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=688.0,753.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : And so I get to Queens and I complained that the education just really sucked and that the teachers really didn't care and the teachers were just sort of talking to the ceiling and not to the students. And I don't remember who I mentioned it to, but somebody who was, you know, some student who was a good organizer said, \"Well don't just complain, do something about it.\" So they brought me into Student Government and meeting with a number of people, we came up with a radical 1960 idea that students should be able to evaluate their courses and evaluate their teachers. So we created, in Student Government, a student survey and boy, did we get heat.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=753.0,801.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : The other thing very quickly was that way it worked at Antioch when they built a new building and people would just walk between buildings. And then the construction crew would then follow the footsteps of where the students went, rather than the design the architects put down. So I was going from one building to another, across the quad that still exists, but there used to be low fencing, all around the Quad were chains. I stepped over the fence, walked across, and then got busted by one of the campus security guards. So we got into an exchange of words, quite I'm sure, who then sent me to the dean. So you know, getting busted for walking on the grass, give me a break. So 1960, right. This was very radical, right. That I wasn't following the campus rule. So I get sent to the dean, the Dean of Students was Kreutzer at that time, and he took me in his office and he yelled at me and he told me not to do this, et cetera, et cetera.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=801.0,870.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : And as I walked out, his secretary said, \"Don't worry about it.\" You know, \"Just be a good guy.\" And, you know, \"You're okay. And his bark is worse than his bite,\" you know, other stuff like that. And her name was Helen Hendricks. \"Just,\" pardon me, \"just\" the secretary, the secretary to the Dean of Students. And she became one of my best teachers in the four years that I was there. I continued to talk to her as I got involved in other activities. And I learned, probably, more from her than any other professor at Queens College. So the two things that really sent me off to college were, you know, the idea about complaining about my courses and the other is that even when busted by a campus security guard, I could survive and continue there and wasn't thrown out. So that made me a dangerous guy cause I knew that I could survive an incident like that. So that, that, that— and the campus was much smaller, fewer buildings than now. A lot more grass and trees.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=870.0,941.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : So let me follow up Mark's comments. I also met a couple of important people in my freshman year on campus. One, I was, again, a young freshman and I had been sent to Remsen Hall to do a survey of some kind. I really don't recall what it was about, except that on the way out, I was walking with a friend and we ran into the student body president named Mark Levy. And I was introduced to Mark. And Mark— we, we, we talked for quite a bit about, I guess, social justice issues, when Mark asked me was my telephone number, the last four digits 1096. And I said, \"Yes, and how do you know that?\" It turned out, and Mark's looking puzzled, but that Mark was somehow in charge of, or had organized this survey, that again, related to social justice. Saw my responses were kind of akin to his and noted the identification, which was the last four digits of your telephone number. Obviously a momentous occasion in my life. Not so much for his.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=941.0,1045.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : That, that's a great story. And I'll pay you back in a little while.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1045.0,1051.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : The second one I want to comment on is later in my freshman year, I attended a meeting of the NAACP chapter on campus. It turned out to be run by a hi— dear high school friend named Pat Dagler. She was the president. And she drew me into the NAACP and that led to, well, that led to me being the next president of NAACP the following year, which began some other things we'll talk about down the road.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1051.0,1092.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : I want to say one thing about what Mark was talking about. My experience in coming from Cornell to Queens with regard to faculty was, was different. Because at Cornell, even though we were all on campus together, I do not remember knowing a single one of my professors or having any interaction with any of them other than in the classroom. And that changed when I came to Queens College. Partly because I got involved with what became a CORE [Congress of Racial Equality] at Queens College, the successor to the NAACP. And so I met Sid Simon and Rachel Weddington and Mickey Brody and others. But just generally, I felt there was more opportunity to engage with faculty at Queens College than there had been at Cornell, which is an interesting difference from what Mark experienced from Antioch to Queens.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1092.0,1166.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Mike, I would comment on that cause all the teachers you listed were in the Ed. [Education] Department.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1166.0,1171.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : That's correct.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1171.0,1174.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : And I think that was not my contact until later in my academic career at Queens. And I think the Ed. Department was unique and different than much of the rest of the college. But you know, it depends where you touch the elephant. But you, you know, like the feeling with [unclear].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1174.0,1192.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Yeah, I'm sure that's right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1192.0,1194.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Also, they were not necessarily faculty instructors. They were faculty at Queens College, but not people you had classes with until later.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1194.0,1210.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : I think Victoria has a follow-up question she wants to ask.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1210.0,1214.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nVictoria Fernandez : Yeah, just related to what Mike and Mark have said. Did you guys join student activities because you wanted to have more of a campus, like campus life experience on the commuter school setting, or like, did you want to meet friends socially? Or was it because you were motivated for social change? And I'm obviously thinking specifically about Student Help and Student Association.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1214.0,1238.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : When I came to Queens College, I had no interest whatsoever in doing anything than taking my classes and getting off campus. I was working at a local newspaper. My goal was to become a sports writer. And I had no interest in what was going on, on campus, except for the fact that I was feeling the need to have some involvement in the Civil Rights Movement because of what I was observing on television in the South and because of my parents who were very progressive.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1238.0,1283.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : I guess in Mark's terms, I would be a red diaper baby. And, but I would not have been involved in campus activities except for the fact that I was walking in the hall one night, going to one of my night classes, and I met Stan who was then the head of CORE. And I asked him what was going on and he said, \"Well, there's a meeting of CORE inside.\" And I said, \"Oh, I'd be interested in finding out about that.\" And that was how I got involved.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1283.0,1317.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : So I would correct one thing that Stan said. I never knew this term social justice, I mean, or even civil rights. What got me involved was a much narrower term, student rights. I became a student rights advocate and that, that was the issue around Speaker-Ban and all, you know, those kinds of things. And when I came to Queens, I was sort of a, an isolate in a certain kind of way. At Antioch, I had a beard back then. I was what you would call more of a Beatnik or a Bohemian. And I played a musical instrument called the washtub bass. But the washtub bass in no way is a solo instrument. You have to have guitar players and banjo players. And the way the college was at that time was that all the Bohemians with some of the progressives would eat up in what was called the Small Cafe.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1317.0,1387.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : And so I became a Small Cafe person. The, the physical building of the Small Cafe is still there. It's sort of behind the library, one of those gray, gra— sandstone buildings. And I think they got some computer stuff up there. I'm not sure, but that used to be a cafeteria before they built the new large cafeteria. And the Small Cafe, you know, people would read poetry and sing music and all that stuff, and I drifted there. And even there, I was a little odd because I never liked any American sports. I was a soccer player. I started playing soccer in high school where I was the only English-speaking American guy who played soccer. No Americans played soccer in late '56, '57. And I, I played at Queens and none of the people in the Small Cafe were into any intercollegiate sports. And I was, you know, a low-level Queens College soccer player who sat on the sidelines. So my connections to Student Government, the soccer team, and to the folk music, Beatnik playing, Small Cafe, were how I really got started around student rights issues rather than social justice.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1387.0,1472.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : So a couple of follow-up questions. As men, I don't know how much this affected you, but my understanding was that there was a dress code on the campus at this time. I was just wondering if you remember that, or if it affected you or mostly affected females more?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1472.0,1488.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : I remember it very much. And even though I wasn't the student activist that Mark was, it was one of those idiotic, stupid things that was then a hallmark of Queens College leadership, which really pissed me off. And I re— I had lots of lady friends and in the cold winters on the hill at Queens College, and they couldn't wear pants. And numbers of my friends dealt with the gendarmes at Queens College and had wonderful arguments about the, those folks and the stupidity of that regulation. It was a symbol of the whole in loco parentis issues regarding, \"You're just kids. Come to school and shut your mouth and we're in charge.\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1488.0,1548.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Yeah. I, I remember that fairly well as well. In fact, my first encounter with activism on campus was the stay off the grass thing that Mark had, had, that Mark talked about and the dress code. And I, too, had female friends. And I don't know if I'd say it pissed me off like it did Stan, it just seemed outrageous to me. And that was another difference from Cornell. Cornell, they didn't care. As long as you paid your tuition and passed your classes, they didn't care much about anything else. And the idea, this in loco parentis idea at Queens College, was just crazy to me. So I, I'm with Stan on that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1548.0,1603.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : [crosstalk] Go ahead.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1603.0,1607.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : In loco parentis was pervasive, you know. And, and they were real dictators as about this stuff, in a sense of you didn't follow their orders, you know, that was dramatic. But to follow up on those guys, ultimately all those complaints by women with support from men came to Student Government. And I was on the fringes of Student Government at that time and I remember that not only did Student Government pick up that issue, right? Fighting around students' rights and the girls' rights to wear skirts, hold on. To, to not wear skirts when they came on campus and could wear pants in the library, cafeteria, and classes, we won. We got the college to take off the dress rule. And again, that was another one of those things, first things in my life, where by organizing persistently and systematically kind of confronting the college around that issue, they changed the rule and we won. So it was another one of those things where fighting around, you know, simple, stupid student rights, you know, in loco parentis things, that I started experiencing, where if you organize and fight, you could actually win.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1607.0,1690.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : And then the second thing I was going to ask, because Mark talked about Helen Hendricks, I know that Stan and Mike have also talked to me about Helen Hendricks having an impact on you. So would you want to talk about her now as well?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1690.0,1705.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Sure. I'd like to talk about her anytime you want. Helen was a young Black staff member in the Office of Student Activities when we were there as freshmen. In a couple of years, she became the head of that office. But she, like with Mark, was always there when you needed support. In our previous interview, Mar— Mike and I talked about the fact that we were young, immature nineteen, twenty, twenty-one-year old's trying to do all this stuff that was important to us and didn't have the foggiest notion how. Helen knew how. Helen made the way clear, the, the, the waters so we could get stuff done. So we would fly into this Student Activities Office, grab Helen and say, \"We have this issue, this problem, this need.\" And she would not only tell us who to see, but she'd make a telephone call so that when we arrived, they were expecting us and supportive. And in terms of creating the Virginia Student Help Project and the Jamaica Student Help Project, and pulling together the resources and getting the support, Helen's expertise and willingness were absolutely critical. It was wonderful.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1705.0,1809.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : I w— I would absolutely agree with that. And I think all three of us had the kind of experience with Dean Kreutzer that Mark described earlier and that I think Stan described on the last interview. He was not a fan of student activism. It was, as Stan said, go to your classes, do your homework, and shut up. And he'll— and we obviously resisted that. And it only made us angrier and more inclined to want to raise hell. But we had no idea how to do it in a way that would keep us in college. And, and Helen was the person, along with Rachel and Sid, Helen was the person who protected us from Kreutzer. And I suspect that Kreutzer probably would, if he'd had his way, would have expelled us from college more than once.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1809.0,1879.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : I would add just two things. One is being specific about something Stan said. Helen at one point pulled me over and said, \"Mark, if you ever want to get anything done in this college, don't go to the chairman of the department, don't go to the deans. Go to the secretaries. Go to the head secretary in any department.\" Cause those were the ones, she would pick up her phone and call and make things happen through the secretaries. So I learned that power very early.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1879.0,1912.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : But there is one story that I, I would love to just describe your brief that really changed my life with Helen. And I tell that story quite regularly, constantly now whenever I do presentations. Early on in my relationship with Helen, I happened to stop in, like on a Monday and you know, \"How was the weekend? How are you? What'd you do over weekend?\" So she asked me and I said, I went to see a movie and I mentioned the name of the movie. And she said what did I think of it, and I told her. And, so this is 1960 or '61. So the movie was a traditional Western movie, you know. You know, guys in white hats with their animals and children, [unclear] Conestoga wagons across the country. And as they went across the country, they were attacked by Indians and there was some sort of fight, and the good guys in white hats won and went on to, you know, do whatever they were doing. And so she said to me, \"When you were watching the movie, who did you root for?\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1912.0,1996.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : And it's like, \"What are you talking about?\" I mean, there was only one set of heroes. Who did I root for? I told her, you know, I rooted for the guys in white hats, and kids with wives and stuff like that. And she said to me, very gently, she said, \"I rooted for the Indians.\" And I said, \"Why?\" So she at first pointed to her hair and the color of her skin. And so, I really listened and said, \"Why did you do that?\" She said, \"Well, you know, take a walk in the Indian's shoes.\" You know, it was this wagon train for white folks, coming out, taking over the Indians' land. Burning, killing, raping, you know, pillaging. And they were just fighting back, defending their own homes. So really, as you get into things, you've got to take a walk in other people's shoes. She turned my world upside down. And then I became a troublemaker in every class because I would take history classes and sociology classes, I would say, well, how do you play this from the other perspective. And that really, really, that one encounter with Helen asking me who are the good guys and what was really going on there, that just totally changed how I saw the world right around.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=1996.0,2094.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : Wow [crosstalk]—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2094.0,2094.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : And, she was \"just\" a secretary, if you're asking me.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2094.0,2099.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : And we'll put in the transcript the quotations there. So I guess this kind of goes into one of the questions we were going to talk about, which is what is the importance of mentorship? What specific impacts did Rachel Weddington, Sid Simon, who are faculty from the Education Department we talked about in the last interview, Helen Hendricks, and perhaps others have on your lives or survival? So I just want to see now, if there's anything else you want to say on this topic.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2099.0,2127.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Yes, mentorship was something that's very, very important to me. As a for four decades, it was something I tried to emulate from my Queens College mentors and other mentors. And it is so clear that mentors make a difference in people's lives. And in fact, one of the reasons that folks of color are not as successful as white folks, is they don't have the support of mentors who make the way open and make the, give them the contacts and so on. And you know, I hadn't heard Mark's story about Helen before, but what's important in that story to me is Helen was \"just\" a secretary. I never took a class from Rachel Weddington or from Mickey Brody, but they made a tremendous difference in my life as mentors. As mature adults who were willing to treat me, not like a stupid kid, but like someone who was interested in moving forward and, and doing the right thing, but didn't know how.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2127.0,2214.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : And so let me begin with talking about Rachel Weddington, who was always— first of all to understand, unlike Helen who was more our age and just very vivacious and used to deal with all the time, Dr. Rachel Weddington was older, was almost regal in her bearing. She was not a soft and easy lady to deal with. But, she was a willing mentor and I would have opportunities, some forced, some willing, to sit down in her office and talk and gain her wisdom and find out that even though what I wanted to do was good and meaningful and productive, it wouldn't be if I didn't grow up and think things through more carefully. And one of the chief ways she, first critical ways she did that is very similar to Mark's story. She made it clear that my role was not to save these other folks, these poor minority folk. My role was to be supportive, to be understanding, to be an ally. And that was also, like with Mark, a similar thing that I learned that carried me forth through the rest of my time at Queens College and in my professional career as a professor.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2214.0,2323.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Yeah. I had much of the same experience that, that Stan did. I think I'd like to relate a couple of stories that, that really helped me as a student. One, and I won't get into the details, but in the wake of the assassination of President Kennedy, Stan and I got in some trouble with one of the teachers, one of the classes we were taking.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2323.0,2362.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Mostly me.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2362.0,2362.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Well, I won't get into the details, but the reality is both of us acted stupidly and very self-righteously. After the assassination of President Kennedy. We were angry and we thought we knew how we ought to react. And one of our professors didn't happen to think that way and we got in trouble because of that. And Rachel sat us both down and said basically, \"You're going nowhere unless you grow up. And you have to learn to respect people, you have to learn to be responsible. You have to be more mature.\" And that was a lesson that I think both of us have carried through our lives about how we deal with situations in which issues arise. So that was one thing.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2362.0,2432.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : With Sid, a couple of things. One is after the summer in, in Prince Edward County, both Stan and I took his Introductory Education class and he was a, you know, easy going guy. Came into class every Monday morning with a smile, wanted to know how our weekends were, and that kind of thing. And the week, the Monday after the bombing of the Birmingham Church in September of 1963, he came into class on Monday morning and we were all buzzing about the, the church bombing and the four teenage Black girls who'd been killed in the bombing. And he came in and there was no smile on his face and there was no greeting, \"Hi, how are you? How was your weekend?\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2432.0,2497.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : He just walked up to the front of the class, picked up a textbook, big textbook, looked at us and then banged it on the, on the desk. And after we sort of gotten scraped off the ceiling, cause it, you know, really shocked us, he said, \"Now that's the sound of a policeman's billy club on a student, on a child, on a Black child in Birmingham, Alabama. Now, what are you going to do about it?\" Now we had already been in Prince Edward County, but it was the kind of thing that Sid did that made us aware of the need to make, as he would say, make our deeds match our creeds. And I tell that story a lot when I speak. And it it's one of the most powerful examples of Sid's mentorship that I can recall.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2497.0,2561.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : The other thing, the other story is when we graduated, Stan and I and Ronnie Pollack, who was another ally of ours and a friend and who was student body president a couple of years after Mark was student body president, we decided to take a trip to celebrate our graduation to Montreal. And we stopped for a night at Sid's farm, I think was in Upper Jay, New York. Somewhere up in the north, Northeast part of New York. And we were sitting around the kitchen table and Sid's youngest child, Matthew, was probably four or five years old at the time and we were sitting and talking and he was playing with a sugar bowl. And as a four or five-year old would, at several times it looked like he was going to spill the sugar and Sid didn't say anything. And it was bothering me and I don't know why it was, but it was. And then at one point, Matthew spilled the sugar bowl and spilled the sugar all over the floor.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2561.0,2640.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Now in my house, as nice and progressive as my parents were, that would have been cause for screaming and hollering and punishment, et cetera, et cetera. And Sid turned to Matthew and he said, \"Now, Matthew, what did you learn from that?\" And that created sort of the paradigm of how I've raised my children. With a level of respect for their point of view, their behavior, and a high degree of independence and self-reliance. And I think that's had a huge impact, had a huge impact on my life and I think on my children's lives as well.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2640.0,2690.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : And probably your students.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2690.0,2692.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Huh? And, and absolutely my students.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2692.0,2698.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : I guess— go ahead, Mark.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2698.0,2699.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : I was just going to say, and Stand and Mike know this, I respected Sid, took his class, but found him a little overpowering. So he never became a, a major influence in my life. And when I look back, I can't find any Queens College teacher who was a mentor, but there were a number of them who saved my ass. When I was at sort of the end of my term as student body president, I got into a little difference of opinion about whether I should show my ID badge to a particular dean who wouldn't tell me who he was. And I got expelled, I got kicked out of school. They threw me out. And there was a movement—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2699.0,2756.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : Sorry Mark, can you, can you explain that a little bit more? What did you get thrown out of school for? I'm not sure I quite understand it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2756.0,2761.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : I had gone from the smaller of the new cafes, through the doors to now where the pool hall is and those other conference rooms, that used to be the faculty cafeteria. And I went, some student needed to talk to me about something confidential, so just to get out of the way, he and I went into that hallway. And then some guy came along and said, \"You don't belong here, give me your ID badge.\" And I said to him, \"Who are you? You're just an adult, I'm a student. I don't know who you are or whether I should—\" I said, \"I'm willing to tell you my name, but I'm not going to give you your ba— my badge unless you introduce yourself.\" And he wouldn't. He says, \"I'm an adult, you're a student. Give it to me.\" So we just stood there like that. Then he walked to the phone that's on the wall by the door, and I think that phone is still there. Then he called somebody and we just, the three of us just stood there, glaring at each other. And then Dean Kreutzer, and— who was his boss?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2761.0,2832.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Pier— Pierson.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2832.0,2832.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : And Dean Pierson came marching in, furious at having been called out of their offices. They came marching in, and he said, \"Dean Howard, what do you want?\" And he just sort of pointed at me and they said, \"Oh no, not you Mark.\" And so they ordered me— then I said, \"Oh, I know who you guys are.\" They said, \"Give me your ID badge,\" and I gave them my, my ID badge. And I think the next morning at home, I received the special delivery letter saying that I was expelled from school. Students and faculty organized and put pressure on the administration, and there were a lot of faculty involved in them. And I remember one Ed. Department guy, his name was Sauls, or something like that. Not very much involved in other things.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2832.0,2888.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : He says, \"Don't worry. Throughout life, you'll meet people who will be unhappy about what you did, but then there will be people who will back, respect, and like, win. And your world won't end just because you were suspended once,\" or something like that. Then, I got readmitted and then Dean Howard instigated my getting kicked out of— oh, not graduating. And I had, at that point in time, thirteen incomplete, thirteen credits of incomplete. And, you know, I, I fully admit that, you know, I was more interested in Student Government, playing soccer, playing washtub base than I was, you know, elevating my grade point average. And so I had thirteen points of incomplete and if they were all turned down, I would never have graduated.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2888.0,2942.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : And they told me they're going to all be turned down. So I had to go back to the teachers I was [unclear] with and figure out what they would require me to do to complete that. And every one of the teachers I approached was sympathetic, had worked out something with me. So they all, they all gave me grades. They gave me actually good grades. And poor Dean Kreutzer and Dean Howard were very upset when, you know, they notice what my teachers [unclear] and I actually graduated. And historically, if we looked at my record, I think I graduated with like a 2.1 or 2.2 grade point average, but I wouldn't've even had that if it weren't for support of the faculty. And these weren't people who I was particularly friendly with or close to, but they played very important roles protecting me.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=2942.0,3001.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : So Mark, when you got kicked out of school, did you get reinstated pretty quickly because of that pressure? Or were you out of Queens College for a little while?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3001.0,3009.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Oh, no, no, no. It was weeks, a month. There's some ugly stuff, it's actually on record cause it was in The Phoenix. At the point where they were willing to take me back because of the pressure, I had to write an apology letter to Dean Howard. So I wrote a letter and they rejected it. So they told me go back and write another letter. I don't know who wrote that letter. I could not myself have written it, being so abject as is contained in that letter, so somebody else must have been a big part of it. And they insisted that the letter be printed in The Phoenix, so that every student would see my apology. So that, in fact, that horrible letter is in The Phoenix with a little history of government [unclear].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3009.0,3067.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : Okay. Well, we've got that in the archives, I guess. So I guess from here, maybe we could pivot to a couple. of the questions specifically about Prince Edward County. And then we can go onto some other campus activism, some more specific activities.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3067.0,3085.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : So, you know, the major project that you led, Stan and Mike, the Student Help Project, it had, as we discussed, it had two aspects to it. Tutoring underserved kids in Queens and specifically South Jamaica. And then also traveling to Prince Edward County, Virginia in 1963 for the summer to tutor and work with kids that hadn't had the opportunity for any formal schooling due to the closure of the schools because of massive resistance to desegregating the schools after Brown v. Board of Education. So one of the questions was, spending the summer there in Prince Edward County, and this is 1963, coming from Queens College, what were your observations about the specific ways that being out of school for these kids affected the Black students in Prince Edward County? And what did you learn about what it was like to be a Black person in the Jim Crow South, going down there as, as white northerners?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3085.0,3155.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Let me take the second part first. Essentially, we very quickly stopped being white folks. We were so enmeshed in the Black community, living in the homes of Black community members, spending all our time with people who were Black, kids and adults. It was very simple. We were Black and white people scared us. And I think in the previous tape we gave you some examples of incidents where we were concerned with white folks, had incidents with white folks. But we were very comfortably in that community. We were supported, we were cared for, we were protected, sometimes at significant cost to the people who were caring for us. And again, the other part was during that time, the students— there were marches by the students supported by the young Episcopal pastor and by the representative from the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee who were doing the training, that the tensions were very, very, very high.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3155.0,3256.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : And we, we totally identified with the Black community. And as I noted in my writings at the time, I desperately wanted to be part of those protests and those marches and was reminded by Rachel and by my colleagues, that that's not what we were there for. And we, we, and I managed to keep focusing on what we were doing and stay away from the marches, except for one instan— instance when we were kind of given permission by the leader of the Black community, Reverend Griffin, to join in the march.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3256.0,3306.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Yeah. Several things. One, as Stan said, we felt safe and very much a part of the Black community and fearful of white people. And that has had an impact on me in my entire life. Even to this day, I have some level of distrust for white people who I don't know when it comes to issues of race. My default reaction, if I don't know them is fea— not fear, but questioning about their attitudes about race. And that has stayed with me and that comes out of my experience in Prince Edward County, and also my subsequent experience being married to an African American woman who grew up in rural North Carolina in a segregated society. That's one thing.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3306.0,3381.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Second is a number of years ago, I think it was on the fiftieth anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education, I spoke on several panels about issues of race and about my experience in Prince Edward County. And I actually met several of the students who'd been involved in the Student Strike in Prince Edward County in 1951. One of them was a man, I can't think of his, of his first name, but his last name was Stokes. And he grew up to become a school, public school principal in Baltimore. But he was— I didn't know him before, but he had been part of the Student Strike in 1951. And he and I talked some about that experience and about his experiences since then, and what came through loud and clear is how profound the impact was on the vast majority of Black children who were shut out of school for four years. It affected their entire lives in, in profound ways.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3381.0,3479.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : That was another thing. Third thing is in recent years, I've done a lot of work on what I'd call a racial hierarchy, which I consider to be the root cause of most of the racism we see today. Belief in the myth that somehow the color of your skin and your facial features determine how human you are. And being in Prince Edward County was my first experience in seeing firsthand how inhumane people could be. The inhumanity that we witnessed in Prince Edward County of white people towards Black people and the inhumanity I witnessed later when we'd go back, when we go to North Carolina to visit my then in-laws, was just striking. And I carry that with me to this day.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3479.0,3559.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : And the last thing that I'll say about it is that, as Stan said, we may have ridden in there on our white horses thinking we were going to be saviors and we learned quickly and profoundly that we were there to help, but that the people in the Black community, while they didn't have much power, the strength they had, the strength that it took to survive, and the tightness of the community was, was, made a deep impression on me. And I found that again later with my then in-laws, my mother— then mother-in-law had worked her entire life as a maid in a white family's house. And as demeaning as that was, she was never a victim. She was a target of racism, but she didn't have a victim's mentality. She was clear about who she was and what, what she was trying to do. And the result was that she raised a daughter who went to college and became a professional, against all odds. And I was struck by the fact with the family that I lived with in Prince Edward County and with my in-laws subsequently, that there was not a victim's mentality. They were strong people who survived inhumane conditions that most of, that would have killed most of us. And those lessons, I began to learn those lessons in Prince Edward County.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3559.0,3680.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Let me follow up with, and this will tie into the, the mentors we talked about earlier. I've learned recently that, you know, Rachel Weddington went to Virginia with us, which is really out of character for Rachel. She's not— Sid, Sid Simon should have been with us. And it was odd that he wasn't, but Rachel was a whole different kind of cat and to go spend the summer with seventeen college students, not in her DNA. I've learned that Helen Hendricks had been working, twisting her arm for months to have her ago to Prince Edward with us, saying that if those kids are— they really care, but if, if you don't go with them, they're going to get killed. And so we had Rachel making the way for us every day working in the Black community, which made our acceptance so easy.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3680.0,3751.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : And the other is the leader of the Black community who had invited us, Reverend L. Francis Griffin, the pastor of the Baptist church, was one of the most remarkable men I ever met. His strength, his determination, his will was what held that community together for all those years. And what was shocking was during our time in Prince Edward, he would spend time with these kids. He would spend time with us, talk with us, help us understand, think through with us what was going on in a remarkable way that again, helped us be accepted, helped us be appropriate. Again, a phenomenal human being, a phenomenal mentor. I learned a lot.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3751.0,3815.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Can I ask Mike and Stan a question? It's been something I've been thinking about recently. Particularly, Annie, after those two wonderful webinars and library programs that you had recently. If we go back, we meaning Mike, Stan, and I, go back and think about the civil rights activities you were involved in, it was, for the most part, it was a bunch of white kids. I can think of the names of three, maybe four Black Queens College students who got involved in our activities. A) they're all female. I don't know the name of one Black male who was involved in any of those activities. So looking through some of my photographs, two show up at the March on Washington.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3815.0,3878.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : So one question is, why were there so few? And is my impression the same as their impressions? And the Black females who were involved in whether it was [unclear], or Student Help, or whatever, they were there pretty much as individuals and I don't remember them having Black friends who were doing stuff like that. But that's one question. A parallel question is, I tried to get Carolyn Hubbard once again, to talk to the archives and just recently, and she didn't want to do that. But if I asked Mike or Stan to tell us maybe how she would have described her experience, take a walk in her shoes, or conversations that we had with her then subsequently, how would the one Black Queens College students talk about her experience in, you know, Prince Edward County? So two separate questions. One at Queens College, one down there.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3878.0,3958.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Alright, for the first question, you're right. There were a few Black students involved, but there were few Black students. I don't know what the percentages were, but there were not many Black students around in that era. Now on the other hand, in high school, Andrew Jackson High School I went to, I was involved in what were then called human relations activities. The school was, was integrated pretty much fifty-fifty, and a significant number of the people I was involved with were Black. Similarly in high school and then the year following high school, I was involved with the National Conference of Christians and Jews. And again there, there were a great number of Black folks, men involved. So I think the best answer to your question is, there just weren't that many Black men around at Queens College at that time.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=3958.0,4034.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Yeah, I think that's probably, I think that is right. But I think there's deeper issue and I may be projecting, I'm not sure. But I think in the case of some Black students, their perception was that we were, we thought we were these white kids on white horses coming in to save the Black community. And I think that there was some resentment about that. And I also think, you know, we just assumed leadership of civil rights activities, and we knew virtually nothing about the inhumanity that Black kids, Black families suffered every day back in the fifties and sixties. As bad as racial divisions are today, it's nothing compared to what went on when we were in college fifty, sixty years ago. And so I think there was less opportunity for Black and white kids to get together. There were many fewer Black students on campus. We were these white kids out to save the world, which I think antagonized Black students who knew that we didn't know what we were talking about at the time. And so I, I have some jumbled thoughts about that, but that's sort of what occurs to me at the moment.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4034.0,4148.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : What about, what about Carolyn's experiences?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4148.0,4157.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Regarding Carolyn, for starters, again, I went to high school with Carolyn. I recall her eighteenth birthday party where three quarters of the people were Black. And again, she went to a high school that was about fifty-fifty. So I think in terms of her experience of Prince Edward, suddenly she was the one Black person and I think that was difficult. The other piece was, she was the only one who had Southern roots. She had lots of family, lots of experiences in North Carolina. And so, she was coming from a different perspective and the difference was we were Blacks for the, for the summer, that summer and that worked out pretty well. And I think she had for the most part, a similar experience to what we had, and with similar reactions.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4157.0,4233.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Yeah, something that you just said, Stan. Also we were in a Black community and experiencing a little bit of what it was like to be Black in the South for six weeks. And then we went back home, where we were part of the majority and the, the upper crust of society when it came to race, racial issues. And Carolyn was, you know, still Black and suffering the same slings and arrows that Black people suffered in, in that period of time. I'm thinking of the fact that today, when George Floyd is kneed to death, when jogger Ahmaud Arbery is killed for jogging, et cetera, et cetera, it raises a lot of protests, not only in the Black community, but also to a significant degree in the white community. Back in the fifties and sixties, that would have just been a daily occurrence.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4233.0,4316.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : And most, and those of us who were white could not appreciate the pain and the inhumanity that was associated with that. And so we could watch what was going on in Birmingham, Alabama. We could watch what was going on with the Freedom Riders and that sort of thing, but it wasn't until Goodman, Chaney, and Schwerner were killed did that, beyond our Prince Edward experience, that that really hit home in any sort of profound way. And so I think to some degree, we were off-putting to Black people who had to endure racial aggressions every single day.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4316.0,4382.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : So that's kind of a good segue to the question about the media because, you know, as we all know, Black communities had always been struggling and resisting in various ways. But the story of, you know, white folks and young people going into the South for projects like Student Help or Mississippi Freedom Summer grab the media attention in a different kind of way. And so you had an experience with Look Magazine and tell us about that and what you learned from, from that about the media's role in social change.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4382.0,4420.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Well, Look Magazine somehow got, was made aware of what we were doing and they followed us around for quite some time in our planning to go to Prince Edward County. And one of the, and the reporter and photographer who were writing that story actually went with us to Prince Edward County for a short while. They didn't stay very long, but for a few days at the beginning of our time in Prince Edward County. And it was going to be a front-page story in Look Magazine, which I don't think exists anymore, but was sort of on par with Life Magazine back then. And at some point, after all of the work they'd done and the pictures they'd taken and the interviews that they'd done, something came up I believe it was with the Vietnam War and the story of what we were doing got sidelined and never appeared. So they had done all that work and it never showed up.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4420.0,4490.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : And I ha— I take several lessons from that. And part of that is also related to the experience that my son, who's a television producer now, has had. One is the fickleness of the media driven largely by dollars and what would sell magazines or newspapers. And the other, and this comes out of my discussions with my son, is that as much as we see more Black people anchoring the news, as much as we see more Black people in television, on television programs, et cetera, et cetera, in the decision— in the board rooms, the decision-making is still primarily made by white males who have a very narrow perspective, I think, on, on the society. So the headlines that are written in the newspaper, the decisions on what goes on the front page of the newspaper, the decisions on what's covered on the evening news, the decisions on a whole range of things are made by white, largely by white males. And so the perspective of women and the perspective of people of color does not intrude very much on decision-making. And I think, I didn't realize it at the time, but I think that probably had an effect on the decision of Look Magazine not to run the story.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4490.0,4592.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Let me take a different tack. The reporter from Look, Shepherd, I think was his name.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4592.0,4601.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Jack Shepherd?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4601.0,4603.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Jack Shepherd. Very personable guy. We all liked him. He spent a lot of time with us and we went a little bonkers. Wave to the camera, you know kinds of I w— I want to get into the article, I want to look good and so on. And I think we learned a lot from that experience. And so when we got to Prince Edward and all of the media showed up, we were not as silly and neophytes as we had been with Look, and kind of ignored them to the extent we could. The other part was the UFT and its leadership, particularly who were there with us, were desperate to get the coverage from the media. And so we let them do that to whatever extent that they could, even though being the cute college students, we got a lot of it ourselves, and that was okay. But, but we, we, we were not taken aback by the media too much anymore, which was good.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4603.0,4686.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : So I don't want to go too much into Mississippi Freedom Summer, which happened the next year, cause I think that would be a whole other oral history, especially one that we want to do with Mark. But I do want to just touch on kind of the transition from 1963 to 1964 and ask about, you know, your role in the lead-up to Mississippi Freedom Summer happening, whether you played a role in recruitment for that? And what you remember about the Freedom Fast, which looks like it happened in July 1964. Talk— talk about what that was.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4686.0,4720.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Yeah, I don't think— maybe Stan and Mark have a different recollection, but I don't remember doing any recruiting for Mississippi Freedom Summer. What I do remember is that we shared our Prince Edward experience with the Queens College students who were going to Mississippi in the summer of '64. We shared with them what we had experienced in Prince Edward County, what our reactions had been, how it, how we felt, et cetera, et cetera. And that's really the only thing I recollect about our involvement in that. I had a class at Queens College with Rita Schwerner, who was Mickey's wife. I didn't know her very well, but we were acquainted. I didn't know, Andy Goodman at all. The only time I ever met him was when we shared our experiences with the contingent that was going to Mississippi. However, after they were murdered, I can't remember whose idea it was or how it came up, but a number of us decided to go on a hunger strike to raise public awareness in the North of what was happening in the South and actually to raise money to support the efforts, voter registration efforts in the South.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4720.0,4819.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Gary Ackerman was on that hunger strike. There were seven of us. Gary Ackerman, Ronnie Pollack, myself. Bobby Rosenthal? I can't remember who, who the other four were, but there were seven of us and we went on a hunger strike, I think we lasted about five days. And we did raise public awareness and we did raise some money. And that's essentially what I remember about that. One funny story, if anything, could be humorous in that situation, but we started our hunger strike in the Student Center, which was right across from the small cafeteria. And there we were, in the middle of the day, starting a hunger strike and by early evening, we were hungry as the cafeteria was right across the way. And we decided to adjourn to a church. I can't remember which church it was. And we spent the five days in the basement of that church, rather than in the Student Activities Center.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4819.0,4898.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : I remember some things, Mike, that you told me. I guess that's why it's good the three of us are on. I was not on campus at that time. My wife was at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, who was a Queens College graduate who graduated a year ahead of me, and I was commuting back and forth. But this is what I remember that Mike and maybe Stan also told me about, that there was a Freedom Week that was co-sponsored by a woman named Barbara Jones, I think? Who worked for SNCC, she was a Queens College student, who actually had a clerical job at New York SNCC and then said, \"Can I do some recruiting on campus?\" And then she, you know, alliance with, I guess, CORE and some other people, decided on having this Freedom Week where all these different events happened to talk about what was going on in the South and North. And I remember—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4898.0,4971.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : When do you think this was? In the spring of '64?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4971.0,4974.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Yeah. Yes, absolutely. And that was when Andy Goodman and the— and I wasn't there. I wasn't on campus. And one of the things that I remember Mike graphically describing was that Barbara Jones worked with you on stuff, but she never would run around chalking boards. The way we would advertise things back in those days is that the, the people leading the organization would run around to every blackboard in the campus and write ups oh, come to this meeting, come to that meeting at some time and place. And that you guys in that four, took over, that made the effort so that by holding those events, by doing the outreach, you did set up— maybe Barbara Jones and some SNCC people did the actual recruiting, but I think setting the whole framework, recruiting people to come to those events was very much in, you know, [unclear] alumni and for student activists things. At least that's the way you guys told me that story. So I give you credit back now. Does that make sense? Does that bring back any memories or did I distort the memory?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=4974.0,5060.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : I think you're right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5060.0,5065.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Thank you.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5065.0,5066.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Yeah, I think you are. I actually don't remember that much about Freedom Week. I remember we produced a pamphlet which listed the various panels and events of the week. And I believe we may have recruited some of the speakers and panelists and did some of the logistical work and preparation of materials. But what I do remember is it was pretty successful, we had pretty good turnout at many of the events. And the other thing I remember is Aaron Henry, who was the head of the NAACP in Mississippi. I guess he must have succeeded Medgar Evers after Medgar Evers was murdered. And he came up and was a keynote speaker during Freedom Week. And the reason I remember that is he stayed at our house, at my parents' house. And we got to know each other reasonably well. But I remember it being successful. I remember it creating a good bit of excitement on campus and it probably had something to do with our hunger strike effort after Goodman, Schwerner, and Cheney were murdered in Mississippi.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5066.0,5164.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : And the other thing that happened during that period of time was the stall-in on Van Wyck Expressway to protest city money going to the New York World's Fair, rather than to affordable housing and other things that we thought were more important.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5164.0,5185.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Mike, when you were on the hunger strike, one of the things that I remember you mentioning to me, if I remember correctly, was that you were doing a lot of organizing and outreach to people to pressure their senators to get— because the federal government was ignoring what happened to Goodman, Chaney, and Schwerner and you guys were mobilizing other people to put pressure loads on the media and on senators.[crosstalk]—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5185.0,5213.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : We did, I remember, we spent a good part of our days in the basement of the church making phone calls, not only to newspapers, but to our congressional representatives. I can't remember much of the detail of that, but we spent most of our time making phone calls and trying to raise public awareness. So we weren't just sitting in the basement of the church being hungry. I mean, we were busy most of the time, which helped make the hunger strike endurable.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5213.0,5251.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : And that was—\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5251.0,5256.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : And we did, we got news, news articles in the Long Island Press and Newsday and I think the New York Times. We did raise some money. We had several events after the hunger strike. One that I remember, which I think I may have mentioned in the last interview was at the high school that I had graduated from on Long Island where the, my parents had helped arrange, and the auditorium was packed and Ossie Davis spoke, a famous actor, and Andy Goodman's father spoke, and I spoke. I can't remember who else spoke. But we did those sorts of events and we did raise money and we did raise awareness.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5256.0,5308.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : I, one of the things that comes to mind as we've been talking is that the nexus between media and the Civil Rights Movement. Certainly with the recent prominence of Congressman Lewis and the fact that what happened on the Edmund Pettus Bridge was critical because it was on the media and because it was on the media, things changed. And I recall regarding Goodman, Schwerner, and cha— Chaney, I recall getting a telephone call from Mississippi, from Carol Kornberg, a friend, who was in Mississippi saying they were just taken, get to the media and try to blast this as far and fast as you can so that might, that might protect them if the eyes of the world are on them. And of course it didn't, but that, that nexus has been very, very important in the change that occurred because of the Civil Rights Movement. The nonviolent movement had power because the media covered it and shared the world and the world was, was horrified.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5308.0,5405.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I actually got a phone call that night as well. And I can't remember from who, from whom it came, but I got a phone call that Andy Goodman and Mickey Schwerner and James Chaney had disappeared. And we needed to do something about that. I can't remember who, who that phone call came from, but I remember getting it that night. And the media stuff is really important. It was, it was because Bloody Sunday was on television, that, that the country was outraged. It's because the burning of the bus in Anniston, Alabama, Freedom Riders was on television, it's because the sit-ins were on television. And there's a parallel today because we would not be as outraged about the police killings of unarmed Black people if it wasn't for television. Seeing that knee on George Floyd's neck for eight plus minutes made a huge impression on the country. Nobody would have heard about it if it hadn't been for the media. Similarly Tamir Rice and Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin, and all, all of Breonna Taylor and Jacob Blake, the one who was shot seven times in the back.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5405.0,5497.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Most of those were on television. And that made, has made a huge difference in raising awareness about racism in this society. And before cell phones with cameras, we wouldn't have known any known about any of that. So the media plays a huge, huge role in in the social unrest and social injustice in the country.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5497.0,5532.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : So to me, this seems like a good time to ask the question, since we've kind of gone over some of the activities that you all were involved in, not extensively, there's a lot more. But just to ask the question, we were thinking of posing this specifically to Mark, but I think all of you could answer it, is just that there was a lot of different kinds of activism at Queens College, especially in the 1960s. The Student Help Project, Mississippi Freedom Summer, things on campus, like the Freedom Week and the Freedom Fast, the World's Fair protests, the student rights issues that were raised, and then later in the decade Vietnam War, and the SEEK Uprising, which Mark kind of had, was there at that time teaching in the SEEK program, which was essentially an uprising by you know, Black and Latino students, faculty, and staff about the conditions they were facing at Queens College. So in the context of all these different things how, how do you think the Student Help Project, which was kind of built around education and tutoring, where does that fit into the sort of the landscape of, of activism at Queens College?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5532.0,5606.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Let me start. As you said, it was education and it's interesting that the civil rights museum in Prince Edward County is the museum for civil rights and education. So whether or not it's education, or housing, or employment, or lunch counters, or whatever it happens to be, it's all part of the same whole. And what was nice about, and maybe different about the Student Help Project is that a lot of the folks involved in that were not otherwise civil rights folks. They were partially education folks, and they could do something with their skills and with their interests and so on. So it, I think Student Help was just one part of that, that bigger tree you just described. And certainly some, the leadership was involved across the board and civil rights. But lots of those who involved just in the tutoring, either in Virginia or Jamaica, were, were less involved, but able to do their part in support of change. And I think that was critical.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5606.0,5702.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Yeah. There are lots of different vehicles for, for being involved. Some students went to the South, some raised money, some tutored. Some— I mean, there were a range of vehicles and Student Help Project provided one vehicle for students who wanted to do something, didn't know exactly what to do, and this seemed like a good thing to do, useful, socially useful thing to do. It was one of the— the Jamaica project in particular was one of the least dangerous things that you could do back then, but it was a vehicle for a number of students who otherwise would not have been involved at all.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5702.0,5760.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : And it raises another question that I'd be interested in, but I don't know how to do it, and that is what happened to those students? Now, I know you've got some responses from students, but it would be interesting to know what percentage of those 500 tutors, to what degree that influenced them in any way in their adult lives, professional and personal. Now, I don't know how we can do that because I don't think we have any records, any longer of students who were involved. But I would guess that it had some impact, some positive impact on their outlook on social justice.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5760.0,5808.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : So at the beginning of this, I said that I would get even with Stan, when he was talking about being influenced by meeting me. And I would argue that I was greatly influenced by Mike and Stan. As I described at the beginning, I was just a liberal guy who believed in student rights, right. And my vehicle for social change was, you know, Student Government. And I, I truthfully don't remember cause I was student president when the Student Help Project was going on. I don't know whether the Student Government lent any aid and support to that, whether they ever asked for it, whether we ever provided it. I sort of background knew a little bit what was going on. And I thought it was very nice that the students were helping out local in Black communities. All of that should be around in quotes, but I wasn't really very touched by it. I thought it was very good.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5808.0,5871.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : But then, when I heard that they were going south and taking a risk to do that, well, that put me in a different head. I think the year before that in my neighborhood on the Upper West Side, I had been approached by a woman, a white woman, whose husband, maybe two years before, had been on the Freedom Rides. And she came up to me, I mean, she wasn't an organizer but in a way she was, I guess. She came up to me and like, only slightly knew her, and she said, \"My husband was just really badly beaten up on the Freedom Rides,\" you know. \"He's all bloody, he's all at home in bed with this. Would you volunteer to take his place?\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5871.0,5920.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : [laughter] Woah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5920.0,5925.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : I was like— [laughter]. Yeah. I was like, \"Sorry, no,\" you know. And, you know, I could explain as somebody who spent much of my life now as an organizer, that's not the way to organize. But it was a combination of not being asked the right way and also being terrified, you know. You know, I don't want to put my ass on the line to get killed like that or beaten up like that. And I remember vaguely the feeling that when Mike and Stan and some of his crew with, you know, because I remember the early stuff that you guys were going through with Rachel and with Sid, preparing for it and raising money and having meetings at Sid's house. I remember feeling guilty, you know. I was still feeling afraid. I guess my major reaction was still one of fear. And then you guys went, you did your thing, and you came back. Right? And you were alive and you weren't injured.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5925.0,5995.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : And in between those two events was also the March on Washington. And I had organized, I must've just been coming to the end of my term as student body president. I organized a bus load. A rickety, yellow school bus that went to Washington for the March on Washington. And I, you know, I went there with a great sense of fear because all demonstrations were being met by, you know, police water hoses, barking dogs, and [unclear]. And it was scary shit. And, and what happened in Washington was A) there was so many people, B) it was so well organized, and C) there were a whole bunch of other reasons there was no violence. So that in addition to education, sort of like the way some of the SEEK students were talking on your seminar the other day, there was now a space that Mike and Stan and the people who went Washington made that other people, whether we agreed or disagreed, could take that extra step and saying, A) there are a lot of people, I'm not just the crazy person all alone. There are other people who say the same thing and B) it's likely I can do this, and if I do it in a smart way, I'm not going to get my head whipped. And I think their two projects not only recruited people on the issues, like for Freedom Week, they opened the space. I mean, you guys talked about the vehicle to do things and creating safe spaces for people to do stuff. I think the fact that you took the risk and you came out of it okay doing what you were doing, that for me personally, that made a difference. I felt like it was a huge step. So I credit you guys with getting me to Mississippi, though we never talk about it specifically. Did I help answer your question?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=5995.0,6129.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : What you've said is absolutely frightening to me. I never was smart enough to be fearful. A— again on the other tape, we, we— interview, we talked about this more. But the fact that we, there was a need and we said, \"We can do that.\" And we did it. And the fact that we could have gotten ourselves killed, never entered my mind. And the fact that it entered your, your mind just tells me how immature and ill prepared I was for that endeavor.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=6129.0,6174.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Well you know, I'm Jewish and I grew up with being told about the Holocaust, and Anne Frank, and anybody who ever spoke out, you know, got beaten up or killed, whether it was about civil rights or antisemitism, anything like that. I don't think it was question of maturity. My, my parents were fearful people. My mother, I mean I told the story before. My mother would not allow us to have books at home. We did not have a set of encyclopedias until my brother and I really pushed on her. And then she said, when we asked her, \"Why can't we have an encyclopedia?\" And oh, she put it in the top of a closet. Top shelf of a closet where we couldn't reach it. So I said, \"Why'd you do that?\" And she said, cause we're talking about when I was in school in the fifties, elementary school, high school. She said, \"Because when,\" not if, when, \"the FBI comes to check on us, if we have books that they can see— they're going to think we're communists if they see an encyclopedia.\" So that fear was really built into me earlier, when you describe yourself, you know, different activities you were involved in, in high school and things like that, and the Christian and Jewish committees and all that kind of stuff, I didn't have that experience as a young person. I had an experience of fear.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=6174.0,6261.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : I, I had, as you know, I had a very different experience. I was scared to death about going to Prince Edward County, unlike Stan. Maybe it's cause I was a year older. I don't know, but I was scared to death. But I got involved in part because that's what my parents expected of me. I grew up in a very different environment than Stan and Mark. My parents actually were a safe house for people on the run during the McCarthy era. I remember nights when I had to give up my bedroom cause somebody who was spending the night who was on the FBI's wanted list. So, you know, that was part— that was in my DNA. I had to be involved in some way. But I was scared, there's no question about that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=6261.0,6325.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : So that, that's one thing. The other thing, two other things that I'll say. One is, I appreciate what Mark said about our influence on him. But I also have to say, speaking for myself, that Mark had a big influence on me and I suspect on others because he was the first person who was out there protesting. And I didn't make much distinction at the time between student protests on— about campus stuff and civil rights protests. I just saw Mark out there raising hell and I thought, that's somebody I want to follow. And so Mark, I appreciate what you said about our influence on you, but your influence on us, I think, was every bit as, as significant.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=6325.0,6380.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : The other thing is Ronnie Pollack, who later became student body president, was, was not much involved in activities, but we had a following, Stan and I, of several hundred students. The ones who were involved in the Student Help Project in Jamaica. And when Ronnie was running for student body president, he came to us and he asked for our support. And the quid pro quo was he needed— if he wanted our support, he had to support our plans for the march on the World's Fair. And he agreed to do that. And he was elected student body president. I suspect most of the Jamaica students who voted, voted for Ronnie for student body president. Ronnie and I are, are still fairly good friends. And last year we went to a baseball game, Washington Nationals baseball game together, and we were sitting in the grand stand, just chatting, whatever. And he said, \"You know, there's something I need to say to you.\" And I said, \"What's that?\" He said, \"As active as I have been—\" And by the way, he founded and was director of the Food Research Action Committee.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=6380.0,6468.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : He founded and was director of Families USA for thirty years. He has had an enormous impact on advocacy for, against hunger and for healthcare insurance through over the years. So his impact on the society has been overwhelming. And he said to me, \"You know there's something I need to tell you.\" And he, he said, \"It's that you and Stan had a huge influence on me. I was not much involved in social justice activities, and you were the people I followed in getting involved.\" And that was stunning to me. But also an indication of how things that we do, that we don't know what influence we have, have often have broader influences that we are not aware of. And so our efforts at Queens College, I know they have significantly affected Stan's work as a, as a professor at UConn [University of Connecticut]. And he has turned out countless students who he has mentored to become advocates in special education. I think I've had significant influence on students that I've taught at George Washington University and on other people and variety of activities I've been involved in. And I, and I just think that, that without sounding self-serving we have had an impact beyond that, that we're— beyond which we're aware of.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=6468.0,6585.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Yeah. Let me reinforce that and kind of button this up, this discussion about what other things were going on in the social justice arena. Yes, I looked up to Mark and Mark was very helpful in me working toward the things I started working toward as a freshman and sophomore. But I think the bottom line, as we've talked now, the bottom line for me is that whether it's Student Help, or civil rights, or war, or anti-nuke, or whatever it happens to be, the basic question of, you know, which side are you on? Are you— you know, we have an election coming up. Basic question, whose side are you on? And clearly the three of us, throw in Ronnie right now, we've all been on that same side for change, for affecting our society. And what area we did it in— for example, again, my career has not been civil rights per se, but my career has been equal access for people with disabilities. Other side of the coin. And so the, the, the point of Student Help and Mark being here particularly is we were all working for social justice, for the betterment of society, and we made a difference and it's really cool. It's great to look back on. It's been fun.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=6585.0,6698.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : So I think we touched on most of the questions we wanted to today. I guess I'll just finish by asking one final question, which was, what was it like to go back to Prince Edward County in 2009? You know, decades later, you went to the Moton Museum. I actually, at that time was a grad student, kind of in the role that Victoria is in now and was able to, to be a kind of an archivist-witness-documenter on that trip. What was that like?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=6698.0,6727.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : It was remarkable. Mike and I have often said that we thought we got so much more out of that Virginia experience than our students did. We acknowledge that the skills we learn, the, the ideas that were developed, led us on our careers and kept us in good stead for the next fifty years. And that's true, but it was really exciting to discover that in spite of our ineptitude as teachers, in spite of the limited time, that it had an impact. And as we talked to these former students, all these forty-plus years later, they made it clear that that summer made a difference. Partially because school started and we were that transition. They spent six weeks in school in the summer and when we, our school let up, within two weeks, they were at school and they were back in the swing of things. And so the idea of going to school, of learning, of being a student with a teacher was, was, was important. Plus the fact that they spent some time with white folks who weren't out to get them, and they had a good experience with white folks was very, very helpful. So that 2009 visit was very, very, very encouraging that not only did we gain, but the, the students actually gained.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=6727.0,6840.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Can I just add something because I don't want to have the last word, so Mike's going to go yet. I wasn't there so I want Mike to have the last word. I wasn't there, but I learned something during the period of time that you went out there because when you guys came back, I don't remember your ever talking about Barbara Johns and her leading the school strike that led into that situation. A) and B) the interesting piece that the original suit that came from Barbara Johns was that she was demanding equal education. Not segregate— not the end of segregation or integration. That was her original demand and that before the NAACP he would pick up her case, the community had to change their orientation of the demand was for desegregation. So the specific knowledge that a student started this whole case that wound up being consolidated with the Brown decision, led a student strike, was just amazing. And I don't even know how much you guys were aware of that history when you were down there. And then the other issue about the difference between separate but equal versus integration, whether how conscious and aware you were those decisions. So probably that particular reunion, I was able to learn things on a much higher level, because I was also fifty years older and learning those things too. So I, I got something out of your having done that. So that now I shut up and let Mike speak.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=6840.0,6959.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : I, I didn't know anything about the student strike when we first went to Prince Edward County and I've learned much more about it since I started teaching about the institutional racism. I think Prince Edward County was one of the most significant and most under-reported events of the Civil Rights Movement. It didn't make the newspapers because there was no violence, but in terms of the long-term impact on people, it was quite significant. Kids getting shut out of school for four years had an impact on their entire lives. So I still think that, you know, that going back to the media impact, it deserved much more media attention than it got. And it didn't get it just because nobody was killed or beaten or anything like that. But the, the non-physical violence was every bit as significant, if not more so, than many of the physically violent events in the South.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=6959.0,7040.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : My going back to Prince Edward County in 2009 was sort of a, for me, a trip down memory lane. It reminded me of, of things that had happened that I had forgotten about. It rekindled some relationships with people in Prince Edward County, as well as with some of the students with whom I had lost touch. Unlike Stan, I didn't actually encounter anybody who I had taught or tried to teach back in the summer of '63, but it was nonetheless a really powerful experience to go back and to get a sense, as Stan said, of the impact that we've had, that we had on, on people in Prince Edward County. And only other thing that I'd say is that I think the Mo— the Moton Museum does a really nice job of memorializing the '51 strike, the '54 Brown decision that Prince Edward County was a part of, and the closing of the schools for four years, and the summer we spent in 1963. So it was kind of interesting to go, and exciting to go back there and see the impact that it had. And I am wearing my Moton t-shirt.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=7040.0,7149.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : Nice. And I mean, people can Google this, but it's Moton Museum, M-O-T-O-N museum dot org [www.motonmuseum.org] is the website, if anyone's watching this and wants to check that out.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=7149.0,7161.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnnie Tummino : Okay. I think, I think that's the end of this interview. Thank you so much, everyone.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=7161.0,7165.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Pleasure.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=7165.0,7165.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Thank you.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=7165.0,7168.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Bye all. A pleasure Mike, Stan [unclear].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=7168.0,7174.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nStan Shaw : Take care.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=7174.0,7178.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMark Levy : Mike, [unclear].\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=7178.0,7178.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784/transcript/24879/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMike Wenger : Yeah.\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/21/collection_resources/40142/file/111784#t=7178.0,7181.36"}]}]}]}