{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/1r6n00zt61/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Dean Savage Oral History"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 1: \u003c/strong\u003eDean speaks about the beginning of his social activism, from his time in Stanford protesting the HUAC hearings to his time at Columbia joining the 1965 voter registration delegation in the South. He speaks openly about his time in Atlanta and in South Carolina, where he registered voters and met movement leaders like Martin Luther King Jr., Bayard Rustin, Rev. Hosea Williams and Rev. Abernathy. During his time in the South he saw levels of poverty he had never encountered, going from church to church registering 1,000 people just in the north side of Orangeburg, which two years later would be home to the Orangeburg Massacre.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003e \u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 2: \u003c/strong\u003eIn 1971, Dean accepts a teaching position at Queens College. At that time the college was growing rapidly, specifically the Sociology Department. Schools like Queens College were paying better than Harvard and Columbia because of City and State funding. However, 1976 hit with a fiscal crisis and many people were laid off; CUNY has been trying to recover since. Despite all of this, the political climate of the '70s maintained the strength of the Sociology Department even as tuition was instituted and the graduation dropped severely within the next decade. Dean and Rebecca go into detail about the changes and challenges that Queens College has faced since the late '70s.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003e \u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 3: \u003c/strong\u003eDean elaborates on the tenure requirements specific to the Sociology Department. In the mid-70s following the fiscal crisis, tenure requirements became more demanding than in other departments causing only 50% of Sociology faculty to get tenure. This was a huge loss for the department, which believed that stricter tenure requirements would yield better results yet had inverse results in that many faculty were getting hired at other institutions. Dean speaks candidly about the double-edged sword that comes with tenure requirements, specifically informed by the need for good instruction while balancing the need for research and publication so as not to get reclassified as a Community College.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003e \u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 4: \u003c/strong\u003eIn the late '80s and early '90s the demographic growth of the Sociology Department allowed for changes. Dean considers these years as \"very good years\" and the tenure rate went up to 75%, which was a huge departure from previous years and generally from other departments that historically held high tenure rates. However, in spite of those good years, salaries have not been able to keep up with rising inflation, especially with the current ballooning housing crisis. This has caused faculty to live further and further away from campus which means they come in only when they have to and can't offer a lot of extra support to students. Dean notes that at its peak in 1975, Queens College had 1,100 faculty whereas now it's at only 500. Dean and Rebecca briefly get into the topic of adjunct faculty, making a distinction between adjuncts who solely make a living from teaching and those who have it as additional income to their full-time jobs.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\"\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eClip 5: \u003c/strong\u003eDean wonders if any of his research and/or initiatives have had any impact, highlighting two specific cases. First was the salary campaign: a study of starting salaries for CUNY faculty (assistant professors) to make sure that Queens College was staying up to par. Salaries have improved, but remain at the middle of the pack across CUNY. Because of Dean's work, policy was implemented that whenever someone gets promoted (from assistant to associate or associate to full), they get a step increase on the salary ladder, which amounts to approximately $3,000-$5,000. Second was relating to Dean's work at the CUNY Graduate Center, specifically around placement of CUNY doctoral students. He was one of the first faculty to highlight the fact that a lot of CUNY Ph.D. grads were not getting appropriate job placements and that doctoral programs cared very little about it. His work helped push this conversation along, ultimately attracting the attention of the Chronicle of Higher Education and the president of the Graduate Center, who ran a study about doctoral graduates and created transparency about the issue.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003e \u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\"\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\"\u003eDean Savage began teaching at Queens College in 1971. In this interview he discusses his early life growing up in western Washington State, his education at Stanford and Columbia Universities, and his career as a professor of Sociology. He discusses his family, his lifelong social activism, and the many changes he has seen at Queens College throughout his career.\u003c/p\u003e (general)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Interview conducted as part of the Queens College Faculty and Staff Oral History Project."]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["California; Atlanta, Ga; South Carolina; Queens, NY (spatial)","1889-2019 (temporal)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2019-09-26 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Dean Savage (Interviewee)","Rebecca Rushfield (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["http://digitalarchives.queenslibrary.org/search/browse/34533"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\" style=\"margin-bottom: .0001pt;\"\u003e\u003cstrong style=\"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;\"\u003eClip 1: \u003c/strong\u003eDean speaks about the beginning of his social activism, from his time in Stanford protesting the HUAC hearings to his time at Columbia joining the 1965 voter registration delegation in the South. He speaks openly about his time in Atlanta and in South Carolina, where he registered voters and met movement leaders like Martin Luther King Jr., Bayard Rustin, Rev. Hosea Williams and Rev. Abernathy. During his time in the South he saw levels of poverty he had never encountered, going from church to church registering 1,000 people just in the north side of Orangeburg, which two years later would be home to the Orangeburg Massacre.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\" style=\"margin-bottom: .0001pt;\"\u003e\u003cstrong style=\"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;\"\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\" style=\"margin-bottom: .0001pt;\"\u003e\u003cstrong style=\"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;\"\u003eClip 2: \u003c/strong\u003eIn 1971, Dean accepts a teaching position at Queens College. At that time the college was growing rapidly, specifically the Sociology Department. Schools like Queens College were paying better than Harvard and Columbia because of City and State funding. However, 1976 hit with a fiscal crisis and many people were laid off; CUNY has been trying to recover since. Despite all of this, the political climate of the '70s maintained the strength of the Sociology Department even as tuition was instituted and the graduation dropped severely within the next decade. Dean and Rebecca go into detail about the changes and challenges that Queens College has faced since the late '70s.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\" style=\"margin-bottom: .0001pt;\"\u003e\u003cstrong style=\"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;\"\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\" style=\"margin-bottom: .0001pt;\"\u003e\u003cstrong style=\"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;\"\u003eClip 3: \u003c/strong\u003eDean elaborates on the tenure requirements specific to the Sociology Department. In the mid-70s following the fiscal crisis, tenure requirements became more demanding than in other departments causing only 50% of Sociology faculty to get tenure. This was a huge loss for the department, which believed that stricter tenure requirements would yield better results yet had inverse results in that many faculty were getting hired at other institutions. Dean speaks candidly about the double-edged sword that comes with tenure requirements, specifically informed by the need for good instruction while balancing the need for research and publication so as not to get reclassified as a Community College.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\" style=\"margin-bottom: .0001pt;\"\u003e\u003cstrong style=\"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;\"\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\" style=\"margin-bottom: .0001pt;\"\u003e\u003cstrong style=\"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;\"\u003eClip 4: \u003c/strong\u003eIn the late '80s and early '90s the demographic growth of the Sociology Department allowed for changes. Dean considers these years as \"very good years\" and the tenure rate went up to 75%, which was a huge departure from previous years and generally from other departments that historically held high tenure rates. However, in spite of those good years, salaries have not been able to keep up with rising inflation, especially with the current ballooning housing crisis. This has caused faculty to live further and further away from campus which means they come in only when they have to and can't offer a lot of extra support to students. Dean notes that at its peak in 1975, Queens College had 1,100 faculty whereas now it's at only 500. Dean and Rebecca briefly get into the topic of adjunct faculty, making a distinction between adjuncts who solely make a living from teaching and those who have it as additional income to their full-time jobs.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\" style=\"margin-bottom: .0001pt;\"\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\" style=\"margin-bottom: .0001pt;\"\u003e\u003cstrong style=\"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;\"\u003eClip 5: \u003c/strong\u003eDean wonders if any of his research and/or initiatives have had any impact, highlighting two specific cases. First was the salary campaign: a study of starting salaries for CUNY faculty (assistant professors) to make sure that Queens College was staying up to par. Salaries have improved, but remain at the middle of the pack across CUNY. Because of Dean's work, policy was implemented that whenever someone gets promoted (from assistant to associate or associate to full), they get a step increase on the salary ladder, which amounts to approximately $3,000-$5,000. Second was relating to Dean's work at the CUNY Graduate Center, specifically around placement of CUNY doctoral students. He was one of the first faculty to highlight the fact that a lot of CUNY Ph.D. grads were not getting appropriate job placements and that doctoral programs cared very little about it. His work helped push this conversation along, ultimately attracting the attention of the Chronicle of Higher Education and the president of the Graduate Center, who ran a study about doctoral graduates and created transparency about the issue.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\" style=\"margin-bottom: .0001pt;\"\u003e\u003cstrong style=\"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;\"\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\" style=\"margin-bottom: .0001pt;\"\u003e\u003cstrong style=\"mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;\"\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp class=\"MsoNormal\" style=\"margin-bottom: .0001pt;\"\u003eDean Savage began teaching at Queens College in 1971. In this interview he discusses his early life growing up in western Washington State, his education at Stanford and Columbia Universities, and his career as a professor of Sociology. He discusses his family, his lifelong social activism, and the many changes he has seen at Queens College throughout his career.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cspan style=\"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background: white;\"\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/span\u003e\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/068/695/small/Dean_Savage_aviary.jpg?1579016546","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/68695","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 6 - 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OK. So it is Thursday September 26, 2019. I am Rebecca Rushfield. I am here with Dean Savage, our interviewee, in the Rosenthal Library at Queens College and we're going to do an oral history interview about his life and career. And unfortunately I'm much more interested in your life, early life than I am...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4.38,33.36"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, we'll do a little bit of both.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=33.46,34.531"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e OK.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=35.06,35.564"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e All right. You know this is going to be for people to see. You know hopefully some parts they'll be interested. Perhaps not in some other parts and we'll start at the beginning and take it from there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=35.565,43.886"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e So I'm an unusual faculty member at Queens College in that I was born and raised in a rural environment in western Washington and my adolescence was spent on... My dad was in the timber business. He had a sawmill and went broke several times. But we were living on a 70 acre stump ranch, logged off land that my dad had bought. And so during my adolescence I got a lot of outdoor experience. We would cut 10 cords of wood every fall and heat the house with the wood that we cut. We had a bulldozer. I'd do a lot of plowing. I would use a lot of other farm equipment. And it was a very different kind of background than most people I know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=44.64,88.46"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, your father grew up in Cali... Was born in California.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=88.62,91.51"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e He was born in Petaluma, California.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=91.8,92.999"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e And your mother was ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=93.09,94.282"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Born in Puyallup, Washington -- a very difficult name to pronounce for those seeing it for the first time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=94.356,98.986"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, where did they meet up?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=99.12,100.889"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e My father was. They moved to California. And they [his family] moved to western Washington when he was about 10. And he was one of eight. And my mother was 18 years younger. She comes from Polish stock. Both sides were Polish in her case. And she was a schoolteacher and my father used to go to dances and she was one of the people at the dances. And so they got married.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=101.67,131.106"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Because I noticed she went to college and you said here his highest education was elementary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=131.665,137.52"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes. He was a, he stopped in the eighth grade. We did not have discussions around the table at dinnertime about Shakespeare.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=137.67,145.529"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Did he leave because of financial reasons?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=145.77,148.149"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Money. They had eight kids. They were poor. My grandfather died when my dad was relatively young. About 15 or so. And there were, like I say, eight children and they go ahead and support [the family]. He started to work right away.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=148.15,162.664"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e I remember my grandmother telling me that she and her sisters had to leave school after eighth grade and the boys got to go to high school. So...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=163.26,170.779"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Here almost nobody did. Out of those eight children, we had one person that went to college. And he went through and got a law degree. He was the success story. On my mother's side it was six kids and two of them died -- one in infancy and one from the Spanish flu in 1919. And the other four all completed college. So there was a drive on that Polish side of the family -- which was dirt poor when they were growing up -- to go ahead and get education and they succeeded.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=173.009,204.719"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now when you were growing up your parents were moderately OK financially?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=205.8,210.406"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e My dad was in the, he was an accountant first and then he was in the sawmill business. He was a partner. He went broke twice. And then he had a run of success starting about 1940, about the time I was born, and it continued for another 13 years. And then what happened, it was the same thing that happened to all the small sawmills in the West, Weyerhaeuser and Boise Cascade and Georgia Pacific bought up all the land, and what happened is that there were no more logs to be bought and deposited. Therefore my dad was forced out of business in his early 60s but he had accumulated enough money so that when I applied to college they were able to go ahead and finance that. We were, we were middle class not in terms of my father's education, but in terms of you know we lived in a nice house and we were able to go ahead and buy that 70 acres. So it was...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=214.06,275.33"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e It was you and your sister?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=275.5,276.975"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e My sister's 15 months younger.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=277.05,278.435"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e So were you two close or very competitive?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=279.81,282.939"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e You can ask her. We fought like cats and dogs. And I thought everything was just fine. So you can parse that any way you like.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=283.369,289.665"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e My brother and I are 15 and a half months apart and we fought our whole existence.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=290.73,294.661"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Well her story is that she never got the respect that she was owed. And I always got to do everything. And it was completely unfair.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=294.662,301.531"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Gee. That sounds familiar.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=301.532,302.519"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes. That's a story that's been told in many families.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=303.728,305.177"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. Right. The boy got to do. The girl...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=305.45,308.009"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. Once I got my car, I went ahead and I was free. And that was not the case with her.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=308.56,314.028"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, when you're living out on a 70-acre piece of ground, you don't have close neighbors, do you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=314.69,322.418"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e The neighbors were there but you know they had their five acres and they had their three acres, etc. And you knew everybody. It was, it was a working-class community in the following sense: the day after my high school graduation -- my high school was terrible; very low quality -- the day after high school graduation, the class reunion was held at the Boeing employment office. And so everybody was either a truck farmer or a Boeing employee. Only two people went out of state to go to college from my high school graduating class.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=322.82,355.678"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e And there were how many of you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=356.629,357.721"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e There were 200. And only about 10 percent went to college at all.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=357.722,362.089"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now you got into Stanford.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=362.55,364.43"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. I tested very well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=364.83,367.579"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Ah. I was wondering because if you were from a terrible school...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=367.779,370.765"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I was from a terrible school but I tested very well and people thought that I had potential. And so we had the dean from Harvard come around to my high school and he was interested. I did not want to go East. And so I got in, and when I was there I was in the top 10 percent of the class. I was in the advanced English class which was extraordinarily painful, because I hadn't written an essay during my entire senior year. It was that bad.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=370.93,399.392"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now your sister, did she go to college?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=400.37,402.232"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, she went to Scripps which is one of the Pomona Colleges in Southern California. And so then she got a master's in education from Stanford and became a teacher.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=402.43,411.459"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e And she lives in California?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=413.86,415.137"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e No. She actually married an Alcoa engineer in Wenatchee, Washington. And he said after their marriage, \"Now it's time to go back home to Tennessee.\" So they moved to upper east Tennessee. And now she is there and she's still employed, as a simultaneous translator --English to Spanish [and Spanish to English] -- in the courts. And so she has horrific stories to tell about what the immigration people are doing. And about all the people that are being deported. And she has lots and lots of stories. She knows the criminal justice system intimately from the inside.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=416.06,444.529"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Somebody should do her. But, we better get back to your life. So you come from a terrible high school. You go to Stanford. What was it like? I mean it was probably...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=447.317,456.48"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e  It was actually really, really difficult. I was blind...I was in shock. I was blindsided. I realized that everybody there -- 40 percent of the kids were prep school kids and the majority of the rest had gone to much better high schools and they knew what they were doing. And so I simply put my head down and I started to work. And I would read and I would -- we read enormous quantities of material. I worked extremely hard during my undergraduate career. And at the end, I had acquired an education, for which I'm always grateful to Stanford. I mean they gave me a shot and when I came out, I knew stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=459.376,498.814"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Can I ask what was it like socially when you came there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=499.19,501.703"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Socially, the thing that I remember, which was very painful, is that the ratio of men to women was like three to one. And, of course, you know that causes some kind of problems. And so that, and socially otherwise in terms of making friends and getting along with people, I'm, continue to be stunned by the talent that was present in that undergraduate class. They had, in our class we had somebody who became the Director of the CIA. We had somebody else who became ambassador to this country or that. We had talent in depth. We had a Pulitzer Prize winner. The guy I used to go hiking won the Pulitzer Prize. He's an historian at Stanford. And so I was just in awe of the talent.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=501.758,549.049"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e OK. But you did well and then you decided. At what point? Did you somewhere along the way decide you were going to go into academia or...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=550.45,559.014"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I decided. Everybody seemed to be applying to grad school and I said fine, I'll apply to grad school. And I applied and got a modest fellowship from Columbia. So I came to Columbia.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=559.08,569.07"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now your parents had supported you through Stanford?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=569.26,571.71"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes. Yes. And in grad school, it was a combination of me getting fellowships -- and I would get better and better fellowships as time went on -- but they were there always as backup. So I did not have, you know, a hand-to-mouth existence. I was extremely frugal. I mean one of the reasons for that was I had a lot of experience living very close to the bone. And so, you know, during my sophomore year I had taken off to go ahead and drive a Volkswagen from Germany to Kathmandu, Nepal, with three young men.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=571.89,608.959"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now this was what year?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=609.1,610.139"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e This was my sophomore year, 1960-61.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=610.41,611.946"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh so it was before everything exploded.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=613.25,617.465"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh yes. Oh yes. Very much before. And so, in that trip which I paid for myself, because I had been employed as a box boy at Safeway making a dollar and a quarter an hour as a union member, I had had enough money to pay for the trip, and our expenditures amounted to a dollar a day for food and a dollar a day for travel for each of us. And we had cots and we lived in other people's homes or wherever we were offered the opportunity. That was a great trip.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=617.76,647.1"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e You could --  someone could not do that today.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=647.63,650.94"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e They could but not for that amount of money.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=651.09,653.377"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. For that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=653.378,654.155"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e You couldn't go to the places I went to. You couldn't go to Afghanistan. You couldn't go to Iran. You couldn't go to Syria. You couldn't go to [some places in] Lebanon. And I went to all those places. On the other hand you could go to some places I could not go to, such as all the \"stans\" of Russia was not available. China was not available. So that became available.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=654.156,674.802"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e But it would cost much more.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=674.88,676.559"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Now you just have to pay a lot more. And you'll see travelers on a road these days that are doing it very frugally. And some of them are astonishing. And they travel with almost nothing, but it's more challenging than it was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=677.1,693.12"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e But. So was it Stanford that opened your eyes and said, \"Gee, I want to see the world.\".","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=694.53,697.882"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e No, actually I believe that it was my mom. And here's how it happened. My dad got forced out of business in the early '50s and then in 1955 my mother decided that the family -- my father, my mother, and my sister and I -- were going on the road for a year. And so...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=698.34,717.079"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Pulled you out of school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=718.83,719.796"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I had never, they pulled us out of school, as a teenager. And I had never been outside of western Washington before. But on eight months on the road we went to 47 of the then 48 states. We went to all the, half of the, most of the provinces in Canada and half of the states in Mexico. And we went to every historical park and every tourist attraction that we could go to. And when I came back and had to take U.S. history, it was not a challenge.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=719.797,747.65"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh so you were you were used to, you had the travel bug.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=750.58,753.03"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e That was a great trip. I, and I really liked traveling. And so then the day after I graduated from high school, my uncle, who was a Ford dealer in Bellevue, Washington, had arranged for us to deliver a brand new Ford station wagon to a fellow dealer in Anchorage, Alaska. And so a high school friend and I drove the Alcan Highway. Fifteen hundred miles. Took us three months -- ah, three weeks -- to go ahead and do that. And that's, that's a gravel road for about three quarters of it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=753.041,783.31"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e And the car got there in good condition.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=783.43,785.098"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e The car got there in good condition and we were careful with it.  But I liked that trip and then it came time for me to think about going ahead and having an experience abroad when I was an undergraduate. Stanford was just developing the Stanford in Europe, Stanford in France, Stanford in Germany model, but I said, \"No, I'm interested in more than that.\" And so we went ahead and put together a trip that turned out to be something I'm so happy that I did. And the memories I have from that are astonishing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=785.16,813.69"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e So were your travels something that got you interested in history? I know you majored in history, originally. Or...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=813.9,821.251"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I did not want to know about history in Europe any time prior to the 19th century. I was willing to learn as much as I could about the 19th and 20th century, but what really interested me was the history of the Middle East, the history of India, the history of Southeast Asia. And so I was studying all of that, and so my trip kind of dovetailed very neatly with that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=822.78,847.779"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, did you speak any of the languages?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=848.2,849.896"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e At the time I had some German and some French, but I think one of my chief achievements during the time was navigating, as a passenger navigator, down through the streets of Istanbul with street signs only in Turkish, and then accomplishing almost the same accomplishment in downtown Bangkok when all the signs were in Thai.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=850.3,876.97"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e I will always wonder how people do it. My grandfather -- and when I was a little girl, he would talk about it. In 1914, he was 17 years old and he and a few friends didn't want to get drafted and they decided they were going to Palestine. And they wended their way from Romania to Turkey to Syria to Palestine. And I always wondered, how do you do it? You don't know the languages.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=877.39,901.049"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e It's hard and, you know, we manage. We were actually under much less stress than your people would have been in the sense that we had a car. We had cots. We had sleeping bags. We were self-contained and we would, you know, camp in various places. I remember one time seeing an empty castle on the Mediterranean shore in Turkey and it looked like the second floor was all empty. The ground floor was occupied with sheep. We just pulled the car up and went up to the second floor in this old castle, put our cots there, and that was home.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=901.36,932.83"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Wow. I know my grandfather said he and his friends every time they got to another town they'd go to the synagogue and wait there for people to take them home.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=933.12,940.419"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah. The hospitality in the Middle East was exceptional. It was really, you could not, sometimes we tried to go ahead and set up our cots and we were immediately surrounded by villagers who said, \"Please come and stay at our house.\" And you know that was actually a quite wonderful experience. So I...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=942.02,960.089"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e ...came back after this year and...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=960.357,962.739"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I have a track record of getting off the treadmill and traveling. And I did the same thing with my dissertation in the sense that I really picked a dissertation topic that required my presence in, in Paris. And so I was in France for three years doing my dissertation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=962.74,979.126"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. So when did you switch from history to sociology and why?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=979.33,983.86"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e My graduate advisor in history -- may he rest in peace -- was not a very interesting person and the focus was quite narrow and I was going to other lectures. I went to hear lectures by Meyer Shapiro. And I went to here lectures by Bob Merton and Dan Bell. And I took a poetry course with F.W. Dupee. And so I was kind of covering the waterfront.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=984.16,1013.129"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Can I ask who your advisor was? Or you...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1013.46,1014.762"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e The man's name of my advisor was Shepard Clough. And I just wasn't happy with that particular program.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1015.95,1023.338"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, he was assigned to you or you were...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1023.57,1025.338"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e No, he was the economic historian and I was inclined toward economic history. And so I went to Dan Bell and I asked if I could go ahead and transfer to the sociology program. And I didn't understand how academia worked. I had had a good first year at Columbia. I had applied for and been awarded a President's Fellowship -- which they only gave a small number to for each program. And I asked it would be OK if I would transfer along with my President's Fellowship from the history program to the sociology program. I'm sure that caused some chagrin in certain quarters, but I was permitted to do it and I was welcomed. And you know, the sociology, I'm not sure it was the right choice. I think I might have been a better historian than a sociologist, but that's what I did. So I went ahead and did a thesis on the French business elite and did a survey of chief executive officers in France.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1026.03,1081.099"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, did you speak French?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1081.89,1082.939"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e By the time I got done, I spoke pretty good French.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1083.0,1085.669"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, what? OK. It's economic sociology. But what particularly got you interested in that topic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1085.86,1093.26"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e There was a theory in the literature at the time that the fact that France was economically retarded -- that's the term we used -- was because they had a family business model. That all the firms in France were family firms or run like family firms. And so I was going to do interviews with people who were owners of family businesses, with people who were entrepreneurs, and people who were professional managers and compare their success rates, and that was the whole idea. And there had been previous studies done in Italy, Portugal and Spain. And so mine was the fourth piece in a comparison set of studies that would look at the business elites in four Mediterranean countries.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1093.35,1136.04"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e What were your findings?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1136.07,1137.779"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, basically the founders did very well and then the heirs -- you know, when you're drawing your management from a very restricted pool -- they did much less well. And eventually, if your firm continued to exist, it was taken over by professional management. Hardly a revelatory finding. It was the first time somebody had gone ahead and done that with real data. And so, and you know I got to be in France for three years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1138.47,1160.079"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e That's wonderful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1163.443,1164.241"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e So I was there for May '68 and I managed to get arrested during May '68 because I was out there demonstrating with people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1164.242,1170.609"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e So you were always a social activist?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1170.72,1173.282"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I have a history. My father was a Goldwater Republican. My mother had a very strong ethical sense. And somehow when I went to Stanford I immediately gravitated toward the people who were protesting. I was there for the initial protest of Woolworth's in the very early 1960s. I didn't protest Woolworth's in North Carolina, we protested the Woolworth's in downtown Palo Alto. And I had been marching there and we were there for, I was there at the HUAC [House Un-American Activities Committee] hearings in California in San Francisco in 1960. I was there on the Thursday and the Saturday. On the Friday that I did not go to the HUAC, to protest the HUAC hearings, that's when they brought in the police and the firemen and they hosed down everybody and arrested everybody. So that was... And then when I came back to Columbia, I marched, but I was a very busy grad student. But during the spring of 1965, there was a notice that went up saying Columbia is sponsoring a delegation to go to the South to do voter registration in the summer of '65 and then once that invitation was there, even though I was being driven crazy by my graduate workload, I knew I had to go. And so I went and the most astonishing thing, we went to Atlanta, we were addressed by all of the heavy duty people of Martin Luther King's operation. We had Martin Luther King himself. We had Bayard Rustin. We had the Reverend Hosea Williams. We had Reverend Abernathy. And that in itself was an amazing experience. But then we got sent to South Carolina, Orangeburg, South Carolina. And I was one of the older group in the Columbia contingent. And so there were other people down there and astonishingly enough, one of them turned out to be Rabbi Moshe Shur, longtime director of Hillel here. And he was in charge of the southern third of Orangeburg County and I was in charge of the northern third.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1174.32,1308.67"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Imagine my surprise when 30 years later I realized that Moshe -- whose name used to be Mickey, and he didn't have long hair and he was not a rabbi -- that we both had had the same experience. And another person in a related group over one county over was Rick [Frederick] Schaffer, who was the chief legal officer for CUNY Central for many years, and he was a Harvard freshman who went south.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1309.03,1328.973"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e So, if I could ask, what was it like being there trying to register people?.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1334.421,1338.68"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I saw levels of poverty, I simply had not imagined existing in the United States. Lots of the cabins had dirt floors. There were people and the degree of segregation was astonishing. And so I saw that firsthand. And we went from church to church to church, that was our entree. And we registered a thousand people during the course of the summer. And we knew we were having an impact when the mayor of Orangeburg, South Carolina, came by as we were preparing to go back to New York City and he asked us who we were supporting that fall for mayor. And we said, \"no, it's not our judgment, you have to talk to the voters.\" But there were a lot more voters than there had been before. And so Orangeburg County at that time was 60 percent African-American. And they went ahead and they have had a number of... Of course, two years after we left you had the Orangeburg Massacre in which the state police killed several people in a protest there, and so...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1339.72,1398.343"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e If I can ask about -- you said poverty there. The whites there were also poor?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1399.357,1406.31"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e We had, they had white poverty as well, but our life was in a bubble. It was entirely in the African-American community. We tried to integrate a restaurant and we, that didn't work. We had a sit-in, and that worked to the extent that the state police came and beat us up and arrested all of us. We all went to jail...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1406.47,1426.721"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Your parents back in Washington, were they very worried? Did they know what you were doing away?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1426.9,1432.393"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e They absolutely knew what I was doing. They hated it. They didn't like what, they didn't want me to do it, but I was 25 and I was gonna do what I was gonna do. So that part was good. And so that was, that was an experience. And so I had taken some pictures there. We went to a KKK meeting and we went ahead and we got arrested and we were in jail, etc. There were some pictures of that that I've donated to the Queens College Civil Rights Archive. So that's a part of...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1432.91,1462.719"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, you went as protesters to the KKK meeting. You didn't go as undercover.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1463.08,1466.176"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e No, it was a rally to recruit people. And it was open. It wasn't one of those closed things where they say,.\"OK, you're gonna carry the firebomb over here.\" No, this was a big rally to talk about how we need to defend our way of life. And it was State Patrol were directing cars in there and it was a very large number of people there. And we attended the rally somewhat foolhardily, but we were there. And so that was actually, when I showed the pictures to the archivist at Queens College and he saw that we had pictures of people in pointy-hooded robes along with burning crosses, he wanted those pictures. And they're now in the Queens College Civil Rights Archive.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1466.45,1508.431"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e So then you finish the summer, you go back to school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1511.86,1513.859"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e And then I left for France in the summer [spring] of '67 and I was there for three years doing my dissertation research.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1513.86,1520.475"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, can I ask a stupid question? But did you have entree into all of these small and not small businesses? Or you....","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1520.79,1527.952"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e What happened, what happened is that I had some initial introductions from sociologists who had relatives who were businessmen. But after that, we drew a random sample of chief executive officers, an honest to God random sample, a representative sample, and then I mastered the art of the very flowery French business letter and I sent out individual letters. I signed them, I typed them, it was just a lot of work. But here's why it worked. No one had done this study before. And the reason for that is French sociologists were notoriously on the left, and businessmen would have nothing to do with them. They saw me, on the contrary, as the representative of American management theory. And even more, some of them imagined that I was actually not doing a study at all, I was simply a stealthy point man coming in to look at their balance sheets and then offer to buy them out, which they really wanted to sell. And so I had a 75 percent completion rate, which for elite samples is astonishing. And it turned into a book. It was a good one. And so, but I always have to laugh when I think about the reason that I was so successful. Another thing that worked is that I had half of the interviews done by very attractive female interviewers from French business schools.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1527.99,1610.251"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e So you spend your three years there. You come back. You're going write your...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1613.89,1617.7"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I got married over there. I got married to a Yugoslav-American. And my son was born in Paris. And so...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1617.959,1623.026"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Ah. Oh he can never be president.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1623.57,1625.46"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e No, I guess not. And, you know, I just have to live with that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1625.74,1630.42"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. Oh so. Now your wife was there doing research, or...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1632.009,1637.244"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e She was there doing some research. She was a French teacher who'd gotten an undergraduate degree from Indiana, a master's degree from Wisconsin, and was teaching French at Rutgers and then she gave that up and went to France and we met. And we were both involved in a protest march. We were involved in a protest march against the war in Vietnam. And so the story there was rather unusual. This was October of 1967. They had 150 North Vietnamese in the classic black pajamas along with 150 American expatriates who were protesting the war in Vietnam, surrounded by 50,000 members of the French Communist Party. And that was quite a spectacle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1637.89,1687.99"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e You don't have photographs of that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1688.14,1689.471"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Well there are photographs in the French press. They took a lot of photographs. I do not have any photographs myself. So that was something that I was involved in. And, you know, I met a whole bunch of people in France. The expatriate community was very interesting. And then I came back.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1689.58,1709.09"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e But you never thought of doing a study of the expatriate community in France.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1709.469,1713.099"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Actually, there have been a number of studies that basically are about the literature. One of the people that I got to know was Maria Jolas whose father, whose husband, Eugene Jolas, had been the editor of one of the small literary magazines. And they knew all of the people that were expatriates in France. And we got into contact with, some contact, with some of those. So people have done a lot of work on that. And that was not my research interest anyway.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1713.73,1742.536"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1743.22,1744.28"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e And I was in the process of becoming an organizational...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1744.281,1745.793"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e That's my interest, I guess.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1746.698,1747.727"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e ... an organizational sociologist.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1748.47,1749.499"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e So you come back.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1749.5,1750.298"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I could send you to Maria Jolas' papers there at Madison, Wisconsin.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1750.299,1752.592"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e OK! So you come back to the U.S. You're gonna write your dissertation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1753.599,1757.743"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Finish my dissertation. I need a job. I've got a family. I've got a son. And so, I taught for a year at Columbia as a preceptor and taught at the uptown NYU campus. And then, I was...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1757.92,1769.11"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Uptown. That was up in the Bronx?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1769.31,1770.72"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e That's now Bronx Community College. They sold it off shortly after I taught there. And so then they had a job at Queens College and I applied. I didn't go on the national market. My wife at the time had informed me that she didn't like America. And she said that I'm willing to live in three places. One is Belgrade, Yugoslavia. OK.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1771.23,1792.58"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e That's not going to work.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1793.08,1794.079"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e The second thing. I could live in Paris.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1794.08,1795.81"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e OK.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1796.38,1796.884"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e All right. Well, they don't have a lot of jobs for American PhDs in Paris. And the third one...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1796.885,1802.495"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e ...is New York City. So that was it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1802.496,1803.693"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e So I went ahead and I applied for one job and I was offered the job and I've been here since 1971.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1803.694,1809.44"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e OK. So you come here in '71. And what was the department like? What was the college like?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1810.57,1816.849"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e The department was growing very rapidly in the early '70s. We were the beneficiaries of the baby boomers' demand for places in college. And so Queens College...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1818.19,1826.765"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e That was right before open admissions?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1829.014,1833.154"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Baby boomers born from 1940...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1833.155,1834.1"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e But when you came in it was before open admissions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1834.428,1836.44"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I came just after open admissions. The first year of open admissions was 1970. I arrived in 1971. But I think the key fact to remember here is that Queens College used to be a relatively small college. In 1960 they had less than a thousand graduates, and by 1970 they had 3,000, and so the college was growing very rapidly. The size of the faculty was increasing very rapidly. And what was happening in the early '70s -- the time when I signed on -- is that the department was growing in a way that we can't even imagine today. Every year they would add three additional new lines. And so we were able to go ahead and tap into...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1837.34,1877.79"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Where did the funding come from?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1877.86,1879.37"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e It was provided by New York City and New York State. And the demand was certainly there, and the economy could support it, and it did up until the fiscal crisis in the mid '70s. And so we were adding new lines and it was actually an exhilarating place to be. And at the time the union had gone ahead and negotiated very good salaries. We routinely would hire faculty away from Columbia because our salaries were better.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1879.64,1911.549"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e I remember in that period, City College salaries were better than I think Harvard salaries. And you've got these fantastic people in all the departments.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1911.74,1922.44"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e And what happened is we had the fiscal crisis in 1976, during which we were all laid off. We had our faculty reunion in the unemployment line. That was an experience. And, then during the latter part of the 1970s, when we had the second oil shock and 18 percent inflation, what happened is that the inflation drastically outran the ability of our salaries to keep up. And so our salaries became significantly less than the case at Columbia and NYU and we've been in that situation ever since.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1922.53,1956.453"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e So how do you get good people to come here? Or, because it's New York, people want to come?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1957.23,1962.979"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e One thing is, it's New York, and there are people who want to be in New York above all else. The second thing is the graduate schools have been overproducing PhDs now for 45, 50 years and so you have. It's a, it's a, it's a, buyer's market. You have all these good people out there. One time when I put out an ad for a job we had 400 applications for one position.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1963.24,1985.979"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Wow. Can I ask? Do you think that graduate schools should limit the number of people they take in dependent on how many...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1987.56,1993.943"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I've been an advocate for that for 40 years now and finally I won that contest to some degree -- or it wasn't me that won, but the Grad Center finally restricted admissions and a number of other grad schools around the country have done that. And when we get to you know when you cover...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=1994.049,2009.688"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. OK getting back to when you get home here the sociology department...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2010.539,2012.98"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Is growing rapidly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2013.2,2014.2"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, students are becoming majors?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2014.47,2016.727"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e We had more than a thousand majors here in the 1970s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2017.53,2020.162"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now why? Because it's a good major if you're going to go into law or ...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2020.51,2025.116"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e It is all of that. But I think the real reason is that the revolution was on, and the revolution is really good for sociology as a discipline.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2027.548,2033.608"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e I took one sociology course here. It was with a visiting, someone visiting. His name was Nigel Fisher. He was British and he came in drunk every day. I remember nothing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2035.49,2047.38"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e At the same time, we had a number of really good instructors and really committed faculty and it was a very, I thought it was a fun place to be.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2048.07,2056.217"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Did they often take in visiting people for a term?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2056.34,2061.05"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e We had some rotating cast of visiting people. But what happened is, you had the demand. They would authorize hiring a visiting line and you could be a visitor for a year or two years. The substitute lines were fairly common then and sometimes they would get converted to permanent lines.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2061.51,2079.31"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. OK. So I'm sorry I took you away from the revolution. In sociology. So --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2079.35,2083.987"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e What happened? It peaked. The revolution peaked in the early '70s. You know, it had been building all throughout the '60s. And then what happened is that our enrollment started to drop. But when the fiscal crisis hit, Queens College, which just before the fiscal crisis in 1975 graduated 4,000 baccalaureate degrees in one year, dropped down to 1,800 in the space of the next decade.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2084.729,2108.76"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. Because they instituted tuition.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2108.83,2110.89"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e They instituted tuition. And people said, \"OK. If I have to pay tuition I'm going to go to SUNY or I'm going to go to a private college, I'm going to St. John's, whatever.\" And so, the imposition of tuition was something that had a very significant impact on you know the number of students that came to Queens College.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2110.98,2128.072"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e And did it change the type of students?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2128.34,2130.21"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e There was a gradual...One of the things to say is that as, if you're a college that recruits locally, and you're primarily drawing your students from the borough of Queens or maybe from near Nassau or maybe from, a little bit from the Bronx, and you triple or quadruple the size of your student body, you're going to be dipping more deeply into the talent pool. And I think that's a part of what happened. But I also think the imposition of tuition had an impact. I think that the fact of civil rights protests leading to private colleges doing everything they could to recruit minorities meant that we had fewer of those people come to us than otherwise would have been the case. And I think also we had hemorrhaging of some of the middle class out to the Island. That was happening during this period and they were replaced with immigrants. And so we're getting a change in the nature of the student body. And I think that translates very clearly in terms of the proportion of our graduates who went on to earn academic doctorates. For the '40s, the '50s and the '60s, between 8 and 10 percent of each graduating cohort went on to earn an academic doctorate, which is a stunningly high rate. This puts us in a category with the Ivy League. And so then what happened, in the '70s, in the late '60s and '70s, this drops off and it continues to drop off and it has reached a much, it's been stable at a much lower level for quite some time. But that's partly explicable in terms of the terrible nature of the academic job market. I mean, why would you go and get an academic doctorate when the chances of getting a job...Families do not want their children to do this and I have every sympathy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2131.41,2241.135"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it's interesting.I trained in art restoration and there are four or five graduate programs there. And basically what they get applying are middle-class white women. And they're trying desperately to get a variety of people. But why would you go into a program where you have to spend four years, come out, make terrible money and owe a lot of money?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2244.11,2271.883"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e If you could go to the Warburg and get a great job, yeah. But for most people, doesn't make sense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2272.0,2278.093"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. So can I ask you now? I know we're skipping around but, at your time, when you came there everyone was on staff? Except for visitors, everyone was full-time staff? You didn't have adjuncts?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2278.21,2293.557"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e We had, we had quite a few adjuncts -- but not like now. The adjuncts were primarily CUNY doctoral students. And part of our role was to go ahead and provide the income and also the teaching experience to CUNY doctoral students. And we did that for a long time. And it was frequently students who had been our undergraduates, who knew the college, and that worked out pretty well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2293.93,2318.714"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e The expectation was...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2318.715,2319.618"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Now we've gotten to a situation where perhaps 80 percent of all classes are taught in the Sociology Department at Queens College by part-timers. This is not a good situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2319.85,2329.69"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e That's terrible because they are not around for office hours, they don't have the time or ability to really mentor.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2330.229,2337.527"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e It's a concerning situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2340.099,2341.099"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e And that's the same in all of the CUNY schools?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2341.39,2344.205"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e It varies by department. In some departments, the majority of the instruction is still done by full-time faculty. Those are expensive departments. In other departments such as psychology and sociology -- which are huge and have large numbers of majors -- you have a lot of part-time faculty and that raises a number of issues. So we've seen a transformation over time. There's been a gradual increase in the proportion of courses that are taught by part-time people. And I think that is something that is, it's not something that people are happy with, but they feel that they have no choice.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2344.77,2385.72"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e OK, going back to the glory days. You as a professor here, did you get to...decide or ask to teach electives? Or you were assigned your...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2386.47,2401.924"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e You could request what you wanted to teach. Everybody taught a three-day-a-week course load. Everybody would have courses. The intro courses were you know 80, 85 or 90 [students]. The upper-level courses were all 45. They all filled. At that time we had 30,000 students in the early '70s. We have a little bit more than half that now so you can imagine what it was like.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2403.58,2427.874"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e And everyone had to do intro courses.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2428.69,2430.239"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Not everybody did intro courses, but everybody taught a full three-course load and they went ahead and had more students than they have now. The average section size at Queens College now is on the order of 25 and then it was considerably higher. So in that sense, you know we, and the good thing about it, what I liked very much, it was a three-day-a-week schedule because we had 50-minute classes. So you could teach Monday, Tuesday, Thursday or Monday, Wednesday, Thursday or Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday. And so that meant one day a week at least you would see all your colleagues. And that changed when we shifted to -- in the late '70s -- we shifted to a two-day-a-week schedule with 70-minute, 75-minute sections. And that means in all departments now you have a Monday/Wednesday faculty and a Tuesday/Thursday faculty. And you don't see each other. Not a good development.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2430.91,2489.818"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. So when you came here to teach, you were hired to teach specifically because, they wanted you because you were an economic sociologist or they needed a new young sociologist and you fit the bill...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2491.28,2502.522"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I think they just wanted new young sociologists to add to the department. And so...I'll give you an example. My first teaching assignment was to teach a graduate course in qualitative field methods. And I said to the chair at the time, Patricia Kendall, I said, \"Oh, there must be some mistake. I've never had a course in graduate, in field methods.\" And she said, \"Oh, that's all right. You'll be fine.\" So I got a textbook and I read about  qualitative field methods. And I kept about a week and a half ahead of the class throughout the entire thing. In that class, six people went on to earn academic doctorates in sociology. So the talent was there, and I didn't do such a terrible job in that I didn't turn them off completely. So, but it was not, they didn't match. You know I taught sociology of work in organizations, I taught industrial sociology, I taught sociological analysis, I taught a number of courses like that. And so I wasn't hired for a particular kind of, they were not doing that. They didn't hire people to fill slots in the curriculum. They hired people who looked like they were promising sociologists who would be fun to have as colleagues.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2504.33,2579.32"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Did you ever expect you would stay at Queens for the duration? Or did you think maybe you'd move to a different college in New York?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2580.05,2588.09"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I had never thought. I was not somebody who really thought about my career and how I could go ahead and advance my career. I kind of crab stepped sideways into grad school and then I kind of managed to get the job at Queens because I needed a salary to support my family. And so it was never \"my goal is to go ahead and become a famous sociologist and aspire to a prestigious position at an extremely well-known college.\" I never had that, I was not ambitious in that sense. And of course that's how it played out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2590.419,2628.429"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Yet, you ended up as Chairman, as Dean.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2629.459,2630.98"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I'm a local service guy. I mean if you, if you wanted to describe my career, I'm proud of having been a good teacher, I won the Teacher of the Year award in 1993 -- which was one of the first times when it was offered. And I always had a...kind of a motivation to do some kind of collective service. And so I actually campaigned to become department chair as an assistant professor. That did not happen very often. And then, I was department chair five times. I filled in on a couple of occasions for people who were, had a semester leave. And then I became, I was chair from '79 to '82, and then I was chair from, in '97, and then chair at one other point, and then I was, when a colleague got cancer, I took over from him and filled out a half term. And I was re-elected for another term from 2003 to 2006. So I had always done a lot of departmental service and I worked extremely hard at it and I found it actually quite rewarding to go and do that stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2633.96,2698.779"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/184","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e As chair what... Most people don't want the aggravation of chair. So what does the chair have to do? Bring, get money from the college for the department?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2699.05,2710.76"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/185","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e As long as you had the enrollments during those years that was not a problem. If you had the enrollments, you would get the resources. And your main challenge is going ahead and making course assignments and writing a schedule to accommodate both student needs and also the needs of the faculty. Like if a woman has a young child, you want to be very careful about not assigning her to evening classes. We had other constraints. We needed to go ahead and meet the needs of our evening students who were working during the day. So we set up a situation in which all of the required courses were taught every semester during evening hours. And then we added a weekend college so that students who couldn't go during the week could come during the weekend and they would, by alternating the required classes, they could fill out the entire program. That was one of the things that we did. I tried to facilitate people getting grants. I tried to encourage people to apply for the PSC CUNY awards. I tried to go ahead and brag about the department to the rest of the college. And that you know was stuff that I actually had a good time doing. At the same time yes, it is very aggravating to be chair. You find out things you wish you didn't know and... But, on balance, I'm happy to have done that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2711.4,2775.492"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/186","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e And everyone else is happy that you did it so often because they didn't...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2794.26,2797.286"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/187","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Not everybody. Not everybody was always delighted. But many people at the time were happy. And so then I also went ahead and, you know, I served as the chair of the Academic Senate, which I really, I had never been able to predict that I would do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2798.36,2814.883"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/188","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Can you explain for those who might use this one day and not know what the Academic Senate is?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2815.78,2819.452"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/189","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e OK, this is an institution at Queens that exemplifies the tradition and the goals of shared governance. It is a body that is supposedly the place where the faculty are able to go ahead and provide input about how the curriculum should change, about how we should change our requirements. And so if you have a curricular change, it has to be approved by the Academic Senate. And, basically the Academic Senate is considered by most faculty to be false, to be not very influential, to not be worth your time. Most departments don't send their serious faculty members to serve in the Academic Senate. And so, on the other hand, when you do have a difficult situation with curriculum, when there are different points of view between the administration and the faculty, as happened most recently in the case of the new Pathways Initiative that CUNY Central imposed upon all the campuses, then the Academic Senate is the place where this can be debated.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2820.829,2890.885"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/190","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e So CUNY Pathways is an across-the-board curriculum for all...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2891.36,2895.707"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e CUNY Pathways is attempting to deal with a very serious problem, and that is, 70 percent of our students at Queens College are now transfer students from other colleges. And sometimes their courses that they've taken at those other colleges don't get credit when they transfer. This is terrible. This is something that should not happen. It's very bad to go ahead and not give people credit for work that they've done, and Pathways was CUNY Central's attempt to impose standardized acceptance of transfer courses on all of the campuses, some of whom had not been doing a good job at accepting these transfer courses. Queens had always done a very good job, and so we didn't need to have Pathways, but it got, we were...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2895.96,2941.369"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Can I ask? Why all of a sudden a 70 percent transfer? Are many of them coming from two-year CUNY colleges?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2941.5,2948.969"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e OK. This goes back to the late '90s, and there is a big crisis, and they had decided that too many students who were being admitted to the senior colleges were in need of remediation and were not capable yet of college work. And so they had a big report, the Schmidt Report, and they decided that we would no longer offer remediation at the senior colleges. There are three admissions tests -- the reading test, the writing test and the math test -- that every entering student has to take. If you fail any of these, after the late '90s, you start at a community college. Therefore during the first part of the 21st century, the community colleges are growing like Topsy. That's where the real growth is. And so we have an enormous number of people who are starting in the community colleges. It used to be that the majority of our new students were first-time freshmen. Now the majority of our students are transfer students. And that means that we really need to pay very careful attention to giving a fair evaluation of the courses they've taken at other institutions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=2949.449,3017.969"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, if someone is coming from a CUNY college, I would think that there should be some easy way of evaluating their...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3018.03,3027.719"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e They sometimes are teaching courses in the two-year campuses that are very difficult to transfer. Like what are we going to do with a course in stenography? What are we going to do with a course in dental hygiene? So there are some courses like that that are problematic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3029.52,3049.139"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, what is that? That people went to a two-year college thinking that they would get, sort of go into a career?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3049.23,3055.178"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e They'd be a dental hygienist and then they said, oh I'm going to go ahead and get a baccalaureate degree.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3055.678,3058.26"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. So there they've done 12 credits and they...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3058.32,3061.61"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. So it's a complicated situation. So what they need, is really they need very careful advisement at the very beginning, and that's a problem, and they also need some hand-holding because you know 40 to 50 percent of these students have no one in their family who's gone to college. And so this is a, and the solution that CUNY has come up with is ASAP -- As Soon As Possible. And they have hired lots of counselors including many Queens College graduates to go ahead and advise and guide these new community college students. And that has increased the completion rate and it's increased the transfer rate by a significant percent. And so you know it's a problem that's well known and people are working to address it, but it's a hard problem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3062.08,3104.309"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. But what does that do for a department, let's say, if most of the people coming in... are juniors?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3105.03,3113.859"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/201","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e It certainly is going to, the average number of credits that people who transfer and bring with them is about 50, so they haven't completed the 60 credits. Some of them have done 75 because they're comfortable at Queensborough. I wish they would not do that. It saves them a little money but it prevents them from really experiencing the four-year college experience. And so, that changes the nature of what is possible. The departments, there are two kinds of majors at Queens College. Most faculty are unaware of how different they are. There are majors that require between 30 and 40 credits, History, Poli Sci, Economics, Sociology, English. Then there are majors that require 60 credits or more. Accounting, the double major for Elementary Ed plus a liberal arts major, the sciences -- Geology and Chemistry, etc. And these are two, about two thirds of the students at Queens are in the low-credit majors and about one third are in the high-credit majors. The high-credit majors, if they had spent 60 credits at a two-year college, are not going to graduate on time -- if they're going to complete their major. And so timely graduation is one of the things we're really concerned about. And good advisement of community college students who want to go into STEM is one of the problems that continues. And so, you know people are working on it. They are perfectly aware of the problem, it's just a very hard problem to solve.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3116.0,3207.504"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/202","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now sociology is a low-credit major.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3208.65,3211.116"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/203","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes. We're 34 credits. We used to be 30. And it's, we have a lot of methods requirements, but, you know, it's still one of the low-credit majors, it's still probably considered to be one of the less demanding majors on the campus.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3211.57,3226.829"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/204","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it involves a lot of writing. It depends on your...aptitude.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3227.09,3230.018"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/205","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e A lot of writing and statistics. I mean we now have methods requirements. You have to learn how to analyze data. You have to do a number of things like that. The majority of students that come through this particular department in terms of career outcomes are interested in social work, or becoming a teacher at the K through 6 level, or being a guidance counselor, or perhaps doing market research or perhaps getting some kind of position doing data analysis and you know we try to serve all of those students. We probably pay more attention to the data analysis aspirants than we do to the people that want to become social workers. But a lot of students still want to, one of the things about Queens College students, they want to help people, you know? Our motto -- which I always used to kind of look down on a little bit -- you know, \"We learn in order that we may serve,\" I've become a real advocate for this motto. It describes us pretty well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3231.48,3288.769"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/206","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e But then I think you get -- like my son -- you get people who know they're going to go into some health profession and they have to take sciences, so they're looking for a major that's not going to be that many credits.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3289.7,3301.219"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/207","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e And you see now with people going into health professions, you're seeing an increasing number of English majors and social science majors and the literature on that suggests that they do just as well as the people who major in biology and chemistry. And they perhaps have enhanced skills in terms of bedside manner and personal interaction. And so the medical schools are not against having those kinds of entrants. And, of course, some of the people who come here and take the pre-med sequence and then major in sociology are really interested in getting that really good grade point average -- which they are likely to get.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3302.81,3339.02"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/208","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. That's true. I mean I don't know if chemistry has changed since I went here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3341.21,3346.115"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/209","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Chemistry's hard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3346.66,3347.332"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/210","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, I remember taking Chemistry 1 back in the day. And it was a killer.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3347.333,3354.84"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/211","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e The example currently is Bio 105, the intro to bio course. They routinely fail, they had in past years, they fail 50 percent of the people. It is the gateway course into the pre-med curriculum. If you get a bad grade in Bio 105, you can kiss med school goodbye, it's not going to happen. Some students are under the mistaken illusion they can take it two or three times and pass it and they just don't believe their advisers who say if you did badly in Bio 105, start looking for another major because med school is not in your future. So that's definitely a kind of a thing. So one of the things that happened in the early '70s -- to go back to the history of the department -- is that we had a very demanding set of tenure requirements. And one of the things that I really think was unfortunate is that it was stricter than many other departments. And the result was that only 50 percent of the very talented new full-time faculty that we hired managed to achieve tenure. And the ones that did not achieve tenure went on to do wonderful things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3355.86,3422.942"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/212","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e What is the history of these very strict requirements?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3424.02,3427.87"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/213","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e It's simply a departmental preference. That we had some people who said we're gonna build a great department, and the way we're gonna do it, we're going to be really tough, and they were much tougher than they needed to be and as a result, they did not give tenure to some really talented people who would have made wonderful contributions. The chief case in point is a woman who did not get tenure and then went on to become the executive officer of the American Sociological Association making $350,000 a year. Oh man.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3428.219,3459.239"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/214","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e But in terms of the tenure requirements were they, at that point at least, heavily publications rather than teaching or other things?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3459.75,3469.409"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/215","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e They've always been heavily oriented, there's always been the majority factor in granting tenure has been publication. You have to have publications. You ideally are also going to be a very good teacher but the publication was the most important thing. The faculty continue to hew to this model and it's a very difficult problem. If you were to look at Queens College and the Queens College student body from, from Mars, you would say what this college needs more than anything else is to have really good teachers who will spend a lot of time interacting with their students and devote themselves primarily to the instruction of undergraduates.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3469.74,3520.329"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/216","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e But that you can only do once you have tenure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3520.33,3522.531"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/217","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Well you can do, but, but I mean, OK, so get tenure and then after you do it. Or give tenure on the basis of really good classroom performance. The danger in that is that if we did that, we would quickly be reclassified as a community college. It's a double-edged sword that has no easy solutions. And so, we've continued to emphasize publication and, on the other hand, many faculty members are going to be publishing articles under extreme pressure that are going to be read by 10 people. And so why would you go ahead and work so hard to go ahead and get these publications which are going to have zero impact? And I looked at this situation and I turned out to be one of the people -- and I have one book and two edited books and some articles -- but I did not turn out to be a research-oriented faculty member in terms of publication records. And I wanted to do research that would have some impact, and so all of my research projects -- if you could describe what I had been doing -- I kind of look around and say, \"OK,  what's not working at CUNY or at Queens?\" and then do a research project that would try to make it better. And so I've done research on alumni giving. I've done research on starting salaries of assistant professors. I've done research on doctoral student placement. I've done research on employment outcomes for sociology graduates. I've done research on employment outcomes for the Queens College PhDs and also Queens College Masters students. And all of that was with an eye to going ahead and trying to somehow make things better. Now, I do have colleagues who have gone for a much broader kind of impact. I think the chief case in point for me is Harry Levine. Harry Levine has done a lot of research on drugs and alcohol, but his most recent focus -- or up to about two years ago his most recent focus -- was exposing the \"stop and frisk.\" And he was wildly successful in that \"stop and frisk\" became a major part of the New York City mayoral campaign. And the research he did was a part of the background research that went ahead and did that. And so we have a number of faculty who've done truly significant research that has had a major contribution to the academic discussion. Another example that I'll offer up is Sam Heilman, who's done lots of research on Orthodox Jews. Published, you know, half a dozen books. He's a figure to conjure with if you're talking about Hasidim, he really knows his material very well and he's been very prolific and he has a national, international reputation performing in this field.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3522.82,3685.36"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/218","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Can I ask you in terms of tenured faculty and the fact that it's based on research, as a chairman, did you find there were faculty who might have been brilliant scholars and terrible teachers?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3686.53,3700.641"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/219","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e The research on that is very clear. They are not related. The cover story that we all tell is that if you're a really good researcher, it will be a benefit to you in the classroom. But, if you look at the actual research and compare evaluations of classroom performance with evaluations of good teachers [researchers], you find that it divides into four quadrants. You've got some -- oh I wish we had more of them -- really good, prolific researchers who are wonderful in the classroom. And you've got that other quadrant.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3701.48,3733.02"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/220","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Really bad in both.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3734.26,3735.26"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/221","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Which is really bad in both and sometimes they get tenure. Go explain that one to me. And then you've got some who are really very good teachers; not very much doing in the way of research. And the other one. And so, if you're giving tenure you should be looking for the people in that golden quadrant which are wonderful researchers and also wonderful teachers. And it's a tough job.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3735.429,3754.852"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/222","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e But how do you then divvy up classes if you know you've got people who are horrible?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3757.48,3763.689"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/223","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e You know, if you have people who are very dismissive of students and who are extremely harsh graders, it may be that the students are going to find out and they're not going to enroll in your class.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3765.88,3780.34"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/224","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Which got me something I wanted to ask about -- the effect of Rate My Professor on teaching and assignments and grading.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3780.38,3789.848"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/225","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e It doesn't have any impact on the faculty, on most faculty, who have tenure. They simply don't care. But for pre-tenure faculty and for part-time faculty, it does have an impact. And I think it is, I used to be a big supporter of student evaluations of teaching, and I was a pure democrat on that. I said we've got to give the students a voice. And then I did lots of analysis for a long time, I was on the Queens College Academic Senate, I was chair for four years, I was on the Teaching Evaluation and Excellence Committee for maybe 15 years. And we analyzed the data and analyzed the data. And the reason that the faculty are really not comfortable with student evaluations of teaching is the same reason that lots of people are not comfortable with the Internet. There are trolls or troll equivalents out there and in every case you will have most people say what they really think about your teaching and a few people who want to get even. And so those people, their comments, kind of take pride of place, and the faculty remember them. And they feel as if they've been unjustly criticized. And I have come to sympathize with that point of view. And so, I just tell my colleagues just ignore the troll comments. You're gonna get them, everybody gets them, but don't take them seriously. Read between the lines. And so you can go ahead and read the comments and you'll find out who's doing a serious evaluation and who's not. I mean some people will say, \"Please go ahead and take this course, you'll thank me later, easy A.\" You know, you want to stay away from that faculty member. You want to go look for the ones saying, \"This is a hard course, but I really learned a lot.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3791.51,3892.222"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/226","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Just being able to evaluate your professor changes the dynamic between professor and student. I remember when I got into graduate school. It was in '76. At NYU Institute of Fine Arts. And it was the end days of the German gods -- as they called them. You wouldn't dare. I still remember in a class, it was a seminar and there were two people registered and four people...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3893.44,3919.155"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/227","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Afraid to register.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3919.6,3920.6"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/228","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. Auditing. The auditors were not permitted to say anything. The professor...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3920.65,3926.018"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/229","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e We've gone beyond that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3926.15,3927.226"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/230","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e The professor was German. And once the other person made a comment he didn't, she questioned. And she was brilliant and she knew the stuff. I just shut my mouth. I took it because it was the right time period or something. And he started screaming, \"In my day we didn't dare question a professor. We wouldn't.  You know, professors are God. You don't contradict them.\" I could not imagine having graded these people. So...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3927.266,3956.669"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/231","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e No, I think we've definitely gone beyond that. The classroom atmosphere at Queens College is generally informal and relaxed. And the challenge that most faculty have is to go ahead and do as much as you can to encourage a broad range of students to speak. You'll always have a minority who are more than willing to go ahead and make comments. And the challenge is to go ahead and somehow involve a larger cross-section of the students in the ongoing back and forth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3958.779,3987.01"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/232","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Do you get a lot of the senior auditors in the sociology classes?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3987.19,3991.124"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/233","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Particular classes attract much more of those. Like Sam Heilman routinely attracts the senior citizen Jewish community. Sometimes they'll outnumber his regular students. But I do not get very many of those. Sometimes when we get them it's, they're very interesting because they have opinions and they're not shy. Sometimes they talk too much. But that's the job of the instructor to rein them in, and experienced instructors don't have any difficulty doing it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=3991.36,4014.635"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/234","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e When did that program come into the college? Do you know?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4016.912,4019.964"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/235","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e It was there all along. When I came here. They had auditors from day one.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4020.0,4023.61"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/236","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e But it seems to have been more of a thing now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4023.92,4026.19"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/237","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e It's very possible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4028.61,4029.324"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/238","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Maybe it's just advertising more.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4029.325,4031.65"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/239","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e That could be advertised more. It could be that they, you know, value the connection with the community. It could be that there is a financial aspect to it as well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4032.14,4039.659"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/240","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e It's actually the greatest bargain because I think for about a hundred dollars a term you can audit 12 credits, so...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4040.32,4045.996"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/241","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e And a lot of these courses are really interesting, and many people in their senior years think, \"Oh I'd like to go back and do it again and take the courses that I wasn't able to take when I was younger.\" And this is, that's why many people retire to college communities where, you know, they want to get back in the action.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4048.562,4064.84"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/242","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e OK. We should, one thing that you noted here is, in terms of your involvement with the department, whatever. At one point you were acting dean of the social sciences?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4065.7,4075.7"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/243","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Well that comes later. Before we get there, that'll be very close to the end. And so. But before we get there, I wanted to continue with this discussion of the extreme pressures on faculty to be very productive in research and get tenure. And that was, as I said, quite extreme during the 1970s. Only 50 percent of a very talented group of young faculty managed to actually achieve tenure. And then toward the end of the '70s, the young people, given the demographic growth of the department, had the votes to take the department over.  And so we took over and we said, \"OK, we're going to, we're going to change this place so that it is a really good place to live and work.\" And we did that. And the 19, the 1980s and the early 1990s were actually, I think, very very good years, and the tenure rate went up to about 75 percent. And so, now, other departments have had different experiences. In other departments there was a much larger fraction of people getting tenure throughout. And it varies by department so you shouldn't generalize from the experience of this particular department.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4075.94,4146.228"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/244","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Something that occurred to me but probably I'm taking you away from this, is but, do most of your faculty live within a reasonable commute?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4146.56,4154.682"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/245","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e It used to be the case that people would live, it used to be that we were a Columbia spinoff department and so a lot of people lived on the Upper West Side because they'd gone there and gotten their doctoral degree from Columbia.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4155.51,4166.449"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/246","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Had a cheap apartment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4167.16,4168.063"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/247","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e They lived on the Upper West Side when it was affordable and they continued to live there. And so we're now coming to the very end of the Upper West Side contingent. New faculty that came on board more recently can't live in Manhattan, that's out of the question, our salaries don't permit that. And they are living further and further away, and this has the downside, as far as the effective functioning of all departments is concerned, of meaning that they only come to work when they do [teach]. So coming in on an off day, if you live in New Jersey, we're talking two bridges with, you know, $25 in tolls. And so that is unfortunately one of the costs of, you know, salaries not quite keeping up with the ballooning housing expenses. So they live further away, they're a little bit less available than they used to be. Also we used to have, at the peak we had 1,100 faculty members in 1975. We now have under 500. And this makes for a lower degree...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4168.064,4231.19"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/248","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e But I was wondering how it affects it -- the rising cost of housing everywhere in New York -- how it affects faculty and especially adjuncts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4231.91,4242.8"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/249","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e That's a very difficult situation. Now the majority of adjuncts have other income from other sources. And you know the idea that, you know you can ask why are the adjuncts doing it for three and a half thousand dollars a course? Why are they continuing to do this? And the answers should be looked at pretty carefully. They really like teaching. They had always hoped to teach. And in a very large fraction of the cases they have alternate sources of income. And you know, the adjuncts don't have to go to committee meetings, they don't have to go ahead and do a lot of the various service work and things like that, they're not under any pressure to publish. And they like teaching a course at the college. It's kind of, you know, \"I have to go teach my course at the college.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4244.89,4292.129"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/250","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e That's for the one-course adjuncts. For the ones who are trying to make a living...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4292.4,4296.406"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/251","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e The freeway flyers who are supporting themselves entirely, is a minority.This is, I mean the public perception is sometimes that this is the majority. No. When they did the national survey of post-secondary faculty -- the last one done in 2003 -- they found that the average income for full-time faculty was $66,000. The average income for part-time faculty was $53,000 from all sources. The inference is they have other sources of income.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4296.407,4324.409"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/252","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now I imagine if you're an accountant and you're doing one adjunct course, that's different than if you are...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4325.61,4330.627"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/253","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e You're probably doing better than most people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4330.74,4332.021"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/254","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4332.07,4334.114"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/255","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. So now we're back up to the 1980s and 1990s now. The Sociology Department in the early, late 1980s and early 1990s. All of a sudden we built this wonderful department. We had in the department Cynthia Epstein who then moved to the Grad Center but later became the President of the American Sociological Association. In the 1980s, we had Ruth Milkman who was hired when I was chair and she was at Queens all during this time, then left for UCLA. And then became, came back to CUNY at the Grad Center and became [ASA] President.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4334.83,4374.542"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/256","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Does the Grad Center tend to poach your really good faculty?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4374.68,4376.7"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/257","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Whenever they could. And they got Cynthia, and Ruth Milkman went to UCLA but then she came back to the Grad Center and she became the President of the ASA. And we had another one back in 1945, Kimball Young, whose grandfather was Brigham Young, who was this rather unusual story that I do not know the complete version of. But, so in this department we've had three people who have become the President of the American Sociological Association, two of whom were here in the 1980s. It was a very good time. But then in the late 1980s/early 1990s, all of a sudden we had a hemorrhaging of faculty. We got poached.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4377.14,4416.929"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/258","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e By?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4417.53,4418.469"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/259","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e We got poached by UCLA. We got poached by the Grad Center. We got poached by Connecticut. We got, you know, just other people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4418.47,4425.701"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/260","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e UCLA is sort of, has a big, impressive department in sociology.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4425.73,4429.998"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/261","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. Very big, very impressive. The New School took one of our people. Northeastern took another one. Boston College took one. I mean we...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4430.58,4439.698"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/262","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e And they can offer money that...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4440.17,4441.283"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/263","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, people were saying,\"OK, the salaries, there's no future here at Queens College. I've gone as high as I can go. I can go higher. I want to do that.\" And so they did. And so we had kind of an exodus there for a while. We didn't really notice it happening while it was happening. And then looking back on it, yeah, we lost a lot of very good people. And then since then we've been going along. We hired some good people in addition but maybe, you know, we haven't quite achieved in my opinion, we haven't quite achieved the level that we had managed to reach in the 1980s. And so...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4441.29,4478.68"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/264","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, in terms of the department and replacing people who got poached, there were still those lines back in the '80s and '90s?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4478.97,4488.755"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/265","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e We would get replacement lines. And we would hire people and we've gone, we've done a lot of work and hiring more diverse people. We've done a lot of work in hiring people who are serving different constituencies. And so, yes, we did have replacement.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4488.989,4504.71"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/266","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e I'm sorry, something came to mind. In terms of the department, in terms of, you know, sociology being seen as sort of a liberal, radical field, has the department been liberal and radical throughout the years?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4507.07,4520.921"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/267","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I think less so than they were in the early, in the 1970s. And still we always attract a certain number of students who have an agenda and are interested in activism.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4521.17,4533.169"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/268","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e And the faculty?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4533.56,4534.4"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/269","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e And the faculty? Less so than, we had one guy resign in 1979 to go join the revolutionary armed underground.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4534.401,4542.223"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/270","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e What happened to him?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4542.224,4543.106"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/271","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e It didn't last. He went ahead and eventually took another academic job. And he went ahead and moved to another more prestigious academic job. He's now a productive and relatively traditional faculty member.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4545.266,4555.203"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/272","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e It's so funny. Because I remember senior year in high school, all of these guys were going to go hitchhike across Europe and become you know, whatever. And then two, four years later you see them on the subways going to their jobs as accountants. So it's hard to stay radical.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4555.746,4574.164"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/273","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e It's routine. We have a few that have stayed radical -- and not too many. And I think there's an interest on the part of our students in social justice issues. And I think a number of courses are coming to, to cater to that particular interest on the part of students. We have a lot of people who want to do things to make the world better. And so I think that part has continued. But of course among the student body now there's nothing resembling what you saw in the 1960s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4574.91,4604.062"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/274","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. But I guess, maybe I'm being harsh on people from the '60s, but I think you have to have a certain -- in most cases -- a certain kind of economic stability behind you to be able to go...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4604.84,4617.538"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/275","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e It's very hard to continue if you don't have any money at all.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4618.522,4620.139"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/276","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4620.14,4620.707"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/277","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes that does not...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4620.708,4621.443"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/278","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e So I think there's probably been a shift. Well I imagine, over the course of Queens College's history, there's been a shift in the student bodies from maybe in the early days they might have been first, first of their family to go to college. Coming into the, \"OK, my parents went to college but they don't want, they can't or they don't want to pay for tuition, so I'll come here,\" to \"I'm gonna go to graduate school. My parents said go to a city college, it's cheap, and then it will pay for graduate school,\" to the immigrants -- people again first generation in college.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4621.444,4649.942"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/279","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e And we have a lot of those. And they're coming from different places. And perhaps many of them are coming from families that simply have not the same emphasis on the importance of getting an education. If you have, you know, a very large fraction of your student body come from Russia and is Jewish, you're going to have a lot of emphasis on education. Maybe coming from some other -- Guyana for example -- maybe not quite so much. And so business is a bigger interest. And so, we have seen a greater diversity in the orientation of the families whose children come here to Queens College. And so that has caused a change in the nature of the student body. And so, you know, that has, and so, the college needs to adapt to that. And I think they've made some significant efforts to [adapt].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4656.17,4706.43"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/280","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Well are there more, let's say, night classes and weekend? Well, weekend classes, I know there are tons of them, because I live near here and you can never get parking on the weekend.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4706.67,4715.33"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/281","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.I know there are. They're trying to increase, departments are pretty good at offering courses in the evening and the New York State just sent down some auditors to be sure that we were offering bottleneck courses in a regular fashion, so that graduation in a timely way was not delayed, and they went away satisfied. Queens is doing, I think, a pretty good job at offering bottleneck courses. There are some departments which have clinical programs -- such as speech pathology -- and they simply have not been able to acquire the staffing -- which is expensive -- to offer all the places that students would like to fill. And so getting through that major, you have to plan very carefully. Getting through a major like psych or soc, no problem. Economics, history or poli sci --no problem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4716.01,4764.94"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/282","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e I imagine the lab sciences are hard too because...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4765.04,4767.371"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/283","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e If you are not in the sequence right away and you need a sequence of lab courses because the curricula over in those departments is heavily sequenced. It's not the case in the social sciences. And so, yes, that could be a problem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4768.08,4780.84"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/284","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Thinking again, speaking about sort of the radical, liberalness of the department or not, does this department more than others -- or like others -- do they reach out to the community? Do you do projects out in the various communities of Queens where...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4781.12,4799.177"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/285","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e We have, in our methods class, one of the people who has routinely been teaching that class will take on a problem. That can be a problem that is related to the community, like commuting. What's your problem with commuting? Well, the whole class will go ahead and devote their research efforts to coming up with solutions to the commuting problem. Urban Studies has been very good about doing similar studies of entrepreneurs in Elmhurst-Corona. And so there are a number of research influences or research foci in the social sciences that do try to reach out to the community. I remember doing a project in the late 1980s. I'd been approached by a foundation to evaluate the festival that they have in Flushing Meadow Park every June. And so the foundation wanted to know if they could justify, you know, continuing to provide funds for this thing. And so they wanted to know who was coming to the festival. And it was an interesting methodological problem in that, you know, I didn't have a list of who came there. And it wasn't as if everybody came in through a single door, so I could do a sequence sample. And so I had my team of undergraduates from sociology go out there on a weekend and we chalked off a one-yard-square section of sidewalk and I gave them all watches and I said, \"OK. Start your stopwatch. Whoever walks into that square two minutes from the time I started it, that's your person. And I had to do it that way, because if I left it up to my students to choose who they would interview, they'd interview cute girls and cute guys. They would not talk to that Korean grandmother. But we got 700 interviews in two days and they liked the report. And so that's an example of the kind of projects that we've been involved in over the years. I did a number of evaluations of responses to a questionnaire by residents at Long Island Jewish. I did this several years in a row. And they were giving all the questionnaires and I'd have my students enter the data and then do the analysis and go ahead and evaluate how successful the residency program for various specialties was at Long Island Jewish. So we've done a number of projects like that over the years. I think we probably should be doing more, but there have been a number of initiatives like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4799.31,4940.53"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/286","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e But is that part of the sort of the college's whole mandate? Or is that something...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4942.49,4947.06"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/287","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e I don't think that the administration is emphasizing that. I think it's left up to individual departmental or individual faculty initiatives to do that. You know. There have been a number of, Andy Beveridge in my department is doing gerrymandering and the allocation of voting patterns. He's been very active in that and been very successful. And he has, he's been having an impact on how things turn out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4947.53,4973.659"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/288","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e I'm sorry. I keep taking you away because these things....","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4974.35,4976.009"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/289","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e We were about to get into. OK, so here's my question to myself. And I think this is something I want to get down. It says, \"OK, I claim that I've been doing research projects which will go ahead and identify a problem and then do some research and maybe try to make things better. And over the years, have any of these initiatives worked? Have I had any impact? And so I want to go over two examples in which I think maybe we did have some modest success. And the first one, it's a study of starting salaries for CUNY faculty. Assistant Professor salaries. And so, with an undergraduate programmer, we went ahead and gathered all of the salary information from the CUNY Chancellor's Report, which gives you all the new salaries for all the new hires. And so we assembled a database, and I would give average salaries by campus. And then I'd send it to the President and say, \"Hey look. Come on. We're, out of 20 campuses, we're 12th. We're just above the community colleges. What's going on here? Shame.\" And so, I would do this every year and I got the chairs behind me. And they were all agitating for improving our salaries. And we have improved the salaries. We're not up there at the top -- that's Baruch. We're not close to the top -- that's City.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=4978.25,5055.69"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/290","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Baruch has better funding?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5055.844,5056.956"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/291","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Baruch has better funding. And, but, you know, we applied pressure and it did have some impact. We're still in the middle of the pack in terms of starting salaries, but President Muyskens -- I'm always grateful to him -- agreed with the analysis and he said, \"OK, why don't you guys [chairs] take $300,000 and allocate it among various departments to overcome the fact of lower starting salaries.\" And so they did that. And then the policy that they implemented was, I think, the successful outcome of this campaign. And that is, whenever someone gets promoted from assistant to associate or from associate to full, they get a step increase on the salary ladder -- which is approximately three to five thousand dollars. And so, the fact that we are continuing to do that for every promoted faculty member, is the successful outcome of that salary campaign. So I'm happy with that result. I consider that one to have been a modest triumph. The second one has to do with my involvement at the CUNY Graduate Center in order to evaluate placement of our CUNY doctoral students. And I've done the analysis for sociology and was quite shocked to realize that only 50 percent of the PhDs coming out of sociology were getting full-time jobs in academia. And so then I enlarged the study to...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5057.029,5148.109"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/292","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e I'm sorry, can I just ask? In terms of jobs for PhD sociologists, it's pretty much? Well, academia or I guess research foundations. There aren't...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5148.8,5159.33"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/293","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e You can do research jobs. You can also, there are a number of not-for-profit things. You can work for Planned Parenthood. You can work for the Census.  You can work for, there's a number of data analysis jobs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5159.36,5168.525"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/294","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e So theoretically, you might go and get a PhD with the intention of never teaching.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5172.14,5175.56"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/295","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Absolutely. You could also get a PhD with the idea of going immediately into college administration, which many people have done. The case in point from sociology is Chris Rosa who is now the University Dean [actually Interim Vice Chancellor] at CUNY for Student Affairs. He is our graduate from 1990. Chris is a remarkable individual. He's had muscular dystrophy since he's 13. He's in a wheelchair. And he has had an absolutely stellar academic career as an administrator. And he's been very successful in what he's done. But so, I started to do this study when I noted that a large number of very talented recent PhDs were not getting jobs and I went ahead and produced a report in the late '90s with the assistance of a large number of CUNY doctoral students and also some undergraduates. And what happened then, and what happened then, is that, you know, things changed a little bit. But then, The Chronicle of Higher Education had become quite interested in this issue. And in 2013 they were looking for a story that would go ahead and highlight how unconcerned doctoral programs seemed to be with whether or not their graduates actually obtained employment. And so I had seen a story that they had done and I sent some evidence of my recent tracking of sociology PhDs to a couple of editors at The Chronicle. And they sent it along to one of their reporters, and she did a remarkable story which highlighted me as the lonely faculty hero fighting against almost insurmountable odds to try to get doctoral programs to pay more attention. And basically they used me as their willing poster child, highlighting an issue that they...And so what happened is that Chase Robinson, the President at the Grad Center at that time, had felt a little bit burned by this story. And so he asked his institutional research people to go ahead and do a follow-up study for all of the CUNY PhDs in every program from 2004 to 2013, and they did the study, and I helped them with it. And they got a really remarkable -- they found 90 percent of their people -- and so they had an amazing database that they put together. And then for a while the institutional research chair had moved on to another job and the new person was not there as often, and so I lost touch with it. And I came back to talk to a new institutional research person and I said, \"Whatever happened to all of that data?\" And she said, \"It's up on the Graduate Center website.\" And so what we have now at the Graduate Center, you can log onto the institutional research website and you can go ahead and you use Tableau [Reader] to identify which years you want tracking for and you can say which program you want data for, and they will give you full data on the average employment for all of the people there. It's a really remarkable database. And so, that I think was something that wouldn't have happened without the piece in The Chronicle which led to the president doing this big survey. And, you know, they just came out with another study in The Chronicle today on the same topic by the same reporter. So I just sent her some e-mails saying thank you for continuing the work.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5175.74,5330.286"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/296","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e What you're saying is bringing up questions in my mind which is, of course, taking us off topic. But the Graduate Center. How? Is it among the most? Well, it only has a limited number of graduate programs, but are those among the most competitive in their fields?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5391.709,5407.389"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/297","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e They're sometimes very good. And some programs that are stronger than others. And you know...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5408.22,5414.013"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/298","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Well their sociology program, let's say.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5414.11,5415.795"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/299","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e The soc program is not as strong as Columbia or NYU, but it's a good program in that people are getting jobs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5416.15,5422.109"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/300","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. Now your master's program in sociology, how competitive is that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5422.11,5426.529"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/301","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e There are a few programs. And it's all gonna be local because you don't compete nationally for master's programs. So Columbia has a program like that, Hunter has a program like that, we have a program like that. And the students who get that training, they all, if they get that good quantitative training, they all go out and get jobs. And I had been threatening to do a comparison of the placement of master's graduates of Hunter, Columbia, NYU and Queens. And I haven't gotten to that project yet. And I'm sure that, you know, I'm...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5427.13,5460.832"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/302","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Columbia will give you the data or...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5460.94,5462.928"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/303","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e No. You get them, you get the names of the graduates and then you generate the data.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5463.06,5467.139"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/304","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. No I was wondering because I'm doing some project on art conservation graduate student publications within 10 years after graduation. And one of the, two of the schools just handed me contact information, names, whatever. And NYU is so impossible. I had to give a note that they sent to the students asking if they, allowing me to contact them and give. Allowing them to give me their contact information -- which is driving me crazy because when you have to ask kids, students and people for things, they're not going to bother.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5467.14,5504.776"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/305","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Why would they?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5505.61,5506.24"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/306","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. So I have like four names from...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5506.241,5509.049"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/307","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e How about LinkedIn?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5509.3,5510.3"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/308","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh yeah. I think I'm just gonna go now and, I actually, there's a, I can look at the professional organization directory and get the name and information but NYU is impossible about privacy and all of this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5511.04,5525.799"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/309","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. I mean you have that kind of development in a number of places. I had a similar kind of thing in the Grad Center because I'd done this big study of 5,300  CUNY PhDs and I had analyzed the placement rates for men versus women -- because I had that data. And I said, \"Hey, wouldn't you be interested in an analysis of placement rates by minority status? How about African-American? How about Hispanic? How about Asian? How about Caucasian?\" And they said, \"Oh, we couldn't reveal that information because it was gathered under a promise of confidentiality.\" And I said, \"You need to know this and you need to know what the pattern is here. You really need to know about this.\" And they weren't having any of it. So I went to see a publication that they had presented which was naming all the people in the minority programs. They were being ridiculous.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5526.08,5578.751"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/310","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e So right, right. So I'm gonna have to just go and get it myself. But it was so much easier for the programs which just gave me all of this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5580.0,5588.849"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/311","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e They could be a lot more cooperative. They need to have their feet held to the fire, and so that doctoral placement study was very much a \"hold their feet to the fire\" kind of project. And, in fact, that's what faculty need to do. And so I've been doing a lot of that. And I had the experience of being, getting on down to my tenure as Acting Dean of the Social Science Division, I had never, never imagined that I would ever take a position in the administration. But the Acting President at the time, they had had revolving deans, people, they couldn't find one who wanted to be or who they could accept. And so the President, the Acting President at the time, asked me to go ahead and do it. And later on I heard a story. And they said, \"How did you ever get him to go ahead and be the Acting Dean of the Social Science Division?\" And they said, \"I told him that the college needed him.\" He made me feel bad. He guilted me into it.[laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5590.09,5647.58"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/312","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. Now. As dean, what are your headaches?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5647.74,5651.46"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/313","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh the headaches. You don't have any money, you don't have any budget, everybody wants something from you. And this is the tradition at Queens College, deans have little or no power. And Michael Wolfe, the current dean, has done the right thing. He went out and raised his own money. Well, I didn't do that. And if you don't have your own resources, you're not going to get anything from the college. The power is tightly held by the Provost and the President. And so, it's not a good job.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5651.82,5679.239"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/314","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e So people just yell at you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5680.259,5681.267"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/315","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e The people say, \"I need this, I need this, I need this.\" And you say, \"I'm sorry, I wish I could help you, but I don't have any resources.\" And so, and they're sympathetic, but they really still want you to help them and there's nothing you can do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5682.329,5694.449"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/316","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e And for how long were you Acting Dean?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5695.18,5696.85"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/317","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Just for one year. Just for one year. I was very happy to leave that job behind me. So...And then, if I went ahead and, let me see what I'm talking about, the other significant events. I suppose another significant event is that in 1993, at the time when I won the Teacher of the Year Award, one of the other people winning the award -- there were three -- was the person in Comparative Literature, Clare Carroll. And you know the upshot on that is that somehow we got together. And you know my first marriage had come apart in the early 2000s. And so Clare and I got married in 2013 and it's been a very successful marriage. And we're both, we're one of the examples of an academic couple who are doing a lot of collective service.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5696.91,5748.273"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/318","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, she's still working and...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5748.699,5750.001"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/319","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e She's still working in comparative literature. And my son's gone on to be very successful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5750.22,5756.014"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/320","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e And what does he...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5756.28,5757.275"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/321","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e He's in computer science. It's, you know, the thing...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5757.276,5760.39"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/322","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Will he run the data for you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5760.5,5761.62"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/323","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e No, no. I mean, I can run my own data. He does cybersecurity. So this, you know, yesterday they announced the MacArthur Awards for this year. Well, two years ago, he got one.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5762.49,5772.31"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/324","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh wow.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5772.75,5773.62"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/325","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e That was a pretty big deal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5773.621,5774.621"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/326","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. You know, it's funny, a friend wrote to me this morning and said, \"Once again they pass me over.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5774.79,5779.29"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/327","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes. There you have it. So I think, that's probably, you know, a pretty much of...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5780.43,5784.186"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/328","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Can I ask?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5784.187,5784.838"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/329","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e One more. Go ahead. Go ahead.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5785.364,5786.288"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/330","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e About your wife's department. Comparative literature. Does she find a lessening of students or...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5786.289,5792.543"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/331","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e They've always had difficulty generating a very large number of majors. They have very good majors. It's an excellent preparation for people going into law or into service, because they learn how to read things carefully and to analyze things. Recently they've got a new social justice track which is having some success. And it's, I think, a program that really emphasizes learning how to read a text very carefully and closely.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5793.12,5822.046"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/332","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e You had mentioned, I think, in passing sometime that she's in Renaissance literature.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5822.77,5826.3"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/333","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes she is and she does the Renaissance. She currently is the President of the Renaissance Society of America, which is a scholarly association. And she is, she had a book come out recently on Irish expatriate exiles in Rome in the mid-17th and 18th century.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5826.55,5843.88"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/334","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e Does she find that in school now there is less interest in Renaissance literature? I'm just comparing...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5845.14,5852.692"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/335","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e The humanities have a problem currently. And I think the thing that was most interesting is that she recently went to a meeting of the American Council of Learned Societies and the incoming president told everybody there that they should all go ahead and spend the next five years rethinking the humanities and try to go ahead and come up with ways of presenting it to the current crop of students and program funders about the relevance of the humanities.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5852.73,5881.14"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/336","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e I was wondering because I'm just thinking in terms of art history, which I'm speaking and spoken to a lot of people about. And now, everyone wants to do modern and contemporary art, and almost no one wants to do Renaissance, ancient, medieval, it's all what's now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5881.77,5896.275"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/337","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Well the Grad Center has actually made a decision that they're not hiring people to go ahead and do anything but modern. And they say we can't compete with NYU in the Renaissance or in classics and we're just going to go ahead and do modern. And so people who are doing Renaissance on the campuses no longer have a place to go downtown. They're not admitting students who are going to plan to become, so there are a number of problems in the humanities. That's much less serious in the social sciences. STEM is doing reasonably well right now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5899.15,5927.989"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/338","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e OK, before I let you go, any last thoughts on Queens or sociology or your life?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5930.19,5937.81"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/339","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e No. I think I've covered the waterfront pretty well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5938.68,5940.087"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/340","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e If you as a little 6-year-old had been told that you would have ended up here doing what you're doing, would it have surprised you immensely?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5940.839,5947.884"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/341","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e At 6 years old I probably wouldn't have an opinion on anything in any direction, but if you'd told me at age 20 that I'd wind up living my life in New York City when I really was an outdoorsy Northwest, Pacific Northwest kind of person, I would have been stunned, I would've said that's impossible. But that's how it turned out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5948.43,5968.199"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/342","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e So do you go back there to be out in?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5968.47,5970.122"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/343","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Every summer. Go back for extended periods of time. I've been back to the Pacific Northwest every summer for the last 55 years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5970.57,5978.28"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/344","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e OK, so you still have the best of both. Does your family still own the land?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5978.49,5983.119"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/345","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e Nope, no. That's long gone. Long gone. Tore down the house. And I just, I went back this summer and said, \"Oh my God, they bulldozed the entire house.\" They're building a big condo there now. So you know, things have definitely changed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5983.66,5996.279"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/346","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Rebecca Rushfield:\u003c/strong\u003e OK. Well, thank you. This was fascinating!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5996.98,5999.475"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444/transcript/6330/annotation/347","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003e Dean Savage:\u003c/strong\u003e All right. Very good.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/10990/file/52444#t=5999.85,6000.606"}]}]}]}