{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/0c4sj1bx7b/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Steve Kruger Oral History"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eAs a Professor of English at Queens College (and former Assistant Chair and Chair of the Department), Steve Kruger discusses his career at Queens College, and how the SEEK program and English Department intersected. He discusses how budget cuts and faculty shrinkages affected English, SEEK, and Queens College as whole, and the changing demographics of the students, faculty, and staff. Particular people mentioned include Joan Nestle, June Bobb, Jessica Harris, Frank Franklin, and Norka Blackman-Richards.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Interview conducted as part of the Queens College SEEK History Project."]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Late 1980s-2020 (temporal)","Queens College, Queens, NY (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2020-03-09 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Steve Kruger (Interviewee)","Obden Mondesir (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Audio"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["http://digitalarchives.queenslibrary.org/search/browse/42398"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u003cstrong\u003eSummary of Full Interview\u003c/strong\u003e\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eAs a Professor of English at Queens College (and former Assistant Chair and Chair of the Department), Steve Kruger discusses his career at Queens College, and how the SEEK program and English Department intersected. He discusses how budget cuts and faculty shrinkages affected English, SEEK, and Queens College as whole, and the changing demographics of the students, faculty, and staff. Particular people mentioned include Joan Nestle, June Bobb, Jessica Harris, Frank Franklin, and Norka Blackman-Richards.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCC BY-NC-SA Contact digitalarchives@queenslibrary.org for research and reproduction requests.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Queens Public Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/010/original/Aviary_QPLlogo_192x192.png?1578574261","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/220/871/small/2020-04-03_12.27.36_copy%281%29_aviary.jpg?1702658855","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - Kruger_Steve_2020309.mp3"]},"duration":2885.35506,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/220/871/small/2020-04-03_12.27.36_copy%281%29_aviary.jpg?1702658855","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-queenslibrary.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/220/871/original/Kruger_Steve_2020309.mp3?1702658368","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2885.35506,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Full Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: So to reiterate, today is March 9th, 2020. I am with Steve Kruger. We are collecting this oral history for this SEEK project. The last thing that we discussed was the conference that was held in 1989 that included Toni Morrison, but also June Bobb and Jessica Harris, who were a part of the SEEK program. And you were discussing your experience in relation to that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2.0,32.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Right, and so I met, I met both of them through the stuff around the conference, and then both of them also fairly regularly taught upper level courses in English in addition to the SEEK courses that they taught. So June was working at that point in time on her book about Derek Walcott and Kamal Brathwaite. And and at a certain point she moved from being a lecturer to being an assistant professor. And so she went through the tenure process at the college when I was chair of English. And since both these people were appointed in SEEK, but their line sat in the English Department. So I was part of the process of getting her through tenure. Jessica was already tenured. And both of them had a history of working with Barbara and Toni around African American Studies at Queens.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=32.0,108.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: June was head of Africana studies for quite a while, I think. She ultimately left SEEK, right and just was in English. And then she more or less left English, right, to do administrative work at the college. Jessica always remained in SEEK, but she would teach a course every couple years at the upper level in English. Her research was about food and recipe stuff. She would teach that, but she had a really wide range of literary interests, and she had known James Baldwin in Paris. And so she would teach a bunch of different stuff for us. The conference -- I don't really remember their specific roles in the conference. I just remember them being in involved in bringing it together. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=108.0,173.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Yeah. And Jessica Harris recently came out with that book.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=173.0,176.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=176.0,176.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: \"My Soul Looks Back,\" Where she discussed some of these things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=176.0,181.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=181.0,183.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: I think I bought it recently, but haven't been able to consider or really sit with it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=183.0,187.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=187.0,190.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: I guess maybe let's start: What got you into the English department at Queens College?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=190.0,199.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: They had a job and offered it to me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=199.0,201.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: [laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=201.0,203.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: I finished grad school in 1988, and so things were actually a little better than they had been for most of the 80s in terms of jobs, but they still weren't great. And I applied to a large number of colleges and universities, had interviews at a number, had two job offers. One was at Queens, one was at Penn State.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=203.0,233.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: What was happening in the job market that was affecting it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=233.0,237.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Well, you know, there have been all these patterns of scarcity. So across the 80s, there'd been a lot of hiring in the 60s and early 70s and, you know, general economic trends and then departments and institutions deciding that they could downsize without harming themselves -- although that wasn't really true, but they decided that was true. So jobs across the 80s were really, really thin in most academic disciplines. And there was a prediction that at the end of the 80s there would be these massive retirements of people who had been hired in the 60s and then there would be plenty of jobs. And that sort of happened. I was lucky in 1988 and 89, the number of jobs in English, at least, went significantly up because there was that wave of retirement that had been predicted.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=237.0,307.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: But then universities found ways of not hiring full-time people and really the continuing of a shift to part-time adjunct labor around 1990. And so there's this little blip up and then a crash. And so it becomes really hard again in the 90s and then actually continuingly more and more difficult except with little exceptions up to the current moment. But I had two jobs to choose from. I had wanted to come back to the East Coast. I had always wanted to live in New York since my parents were from here, but I had never, and I'd come a lot to visit relatives as a kid, but I had never lived here. Queens was a really attractive job to me for those kinds of personal reasons. I also thought I was happy to be joining a public institution.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=307.0,372.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: My mother had gone to Brooklyn College. My father had gone to City College back in the 40s and early 50s, so I knew something about the bigger city university system. One of my parents' best friends had been among the first students to be at Queens. So, I knew a little bit about Queens College. My parents always thought of Queens as like the country and Queens College as like an upstart college that that didn't have the weight of Brooklyn or City. But they were happy I was coming back east. So there were personal reasons, but also the department was impressive, the college was impressive and I was attracted to the publicness of the institution.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=372.0,438.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=438.0,439.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: And its openness to a wide range of students.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=439.0,444.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: So I mean, you get this position in the late 80s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=444.0,448.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=448.0,449.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Could you describe the demographics of Queens College at that time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=449.0,454.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Uh-huh. Sure. The college has always been diverse in terms of place of origin of students. And it's alway -- in my experience, so from 88 on -- always had a lot of first generation immigrant students, but it was much more European white than it is now. So lots of first, second generation, traditional immigrant, New Yorkers, Italian Irish, Jewish. Much less of a Latino presence. And African American students at the college have always been underrepresented. Right? Continued to be, and in the SEEK English courses you encountered a large number of African-American students, not so much. Right. Certainly not in the English major. The English major in the 90s was quite white and much, much whiter, actually, than the college as a whole was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=454.0,542.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Right. So it didn't have like the Asian, South Asian students that were part of the diversity of the college in the 90s. The English major didn't tend to attract those students. That's significantly changed, I'd say, in the last 10 years. And now English majors -- like in our senior seminars -- the makeup of the class seems much more to match the larger makeup of the college than used to be the case. Which I think is partly just changes in the students' own interests, but also I think that the departments become less Eurocentric and therefore more interesting potentially to students who want to study literature, but not just English and White American writers.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=542.0,604.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: So we've discussed the demographics. Could you tell me -- I know that you had your first initial experience with SEEK educators at this conference -- but when you started working on the campus, what was it like working with the SEEK program?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=604.0,621.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: I think the SEEK faculty felt quite isolated and quite second class. I think partly because most of them -- even people on full-time, professorial lines, and not lecturer lines and not part-time people, but people like Jessica who was, when I first knew her, already a tenured associate professor -- because they did most of their teaching in SEEK, they were mostly teaching the first two sort-of freshman courses right? Over and over and over again. Whereas the faculty who were appointed in English, even fairly junior faculty like me, would be teaching those courses outside SEEK, right? So like English 110 and English 120, but also teaching courses in their specialty, right? And so that's why for people like June and Jessica, it was important that they had this opportunity every once in a while, fairly regularly to teach English courses at a upper level. Because they were experts in their own areas, but most of their teaching in SEEK wasn't in their area of expertise. It was basic writing or freshman composition kinds of courses.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=621.0,705.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: So I think there was, I'd say, there was a fairly embattled feeling on a part of SEEK faculty that they weren't appreciated, that when people thought about the faculty in English they didn't tend to think of the people who were in SEEK and English. And I think that that was true. I think there were a number of people on the English side of things, the non-SEEK English side of things, like Barbara, who tried to reach across that and make some connections to SEEK. And also the person who was chair when I became assistant chair, Charles Molesworth, was more open, I'd say, than some of his predecessors to having SEEK faculty teaching non-SEEK English courses, right? So there was a little bit of a détente or warming, I'd say, in that period. But the SEEK English people remained fairly separate and a little bit aggrieved about that, I'd say.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=705.0,783.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: June left SEEK and joined just the non-SEEK English department. And I'd say her colleagues in SEEK were probably angry about that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=783.0,798.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=798.0,803.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: And she did it because she was tired of teaching first year writing as her primary thing. So yeah, I mean, the other people who I knew, right, June and Jessica, it was Cicely Rodway who taught mostly reading rather than writing. But she also ultimately got to teach some higher level courses in English, and I think was really appreciative of that. And again, she's someone like June, who I think moved from a lecturer line to an assistant professor line, and therefore had to go through tenure during the period when I was involved in that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=803.0,846.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: And she produced a book of poetry. She published a book of poetry that was the book that got her her tenure. And the tenure stuff all worked through English because there's since SEEK isn't a department, there's no institutional way that people can just be tenured in SEEK. They have to be tenured either in Math or English or PoliSci, whatever their appointed department is. I was involved also with Cicely's tenure and promotion. Lindsay Patterson, have you come across his name? His dad -- he died in 2009 -- he was probably the most senior of them all on the English SEEK faculty. He had published a bunch of stuff. I think he might have done something like a radio or TV show about the arts on sort of local cable. So there might be some televisual or radio record of him. Actually, I was trying to make sure I remembered his name. So I looked him up and I saw his obituary, which is how I know that I had never seen this, I think it's tv, show. So there's some information out there about him and maybe some records that would be interesting, I don't know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=846.0,948.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: And a woman, Joan Nestle, have you come across her name?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=948.0,953.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=953.0,953.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: At all?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=953.0,953.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=953.0,954.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah. So of the people I've mentioned, and I actually think of all the people who were appointed in English from SEEK, she was the only white person. She was a lecturer, not an assistant professor, because she'd never finished her PhD. She did everything but the dissertation at NYU.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=954.0,984.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=984.0,985.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Working on Swinburne's poetry or some really abstruse thing like that. But she was an important figure in New York because she's the co-founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. She's the one faculty members from SEEK at Queens who I knew about before I came here because she had just published sometime in the mid-80s a memoir, it's mostly separate essays, but they all are kind of historical memoir essays about her life in the 50s as a working-class lesbian from the Bronx, I think. I'm trying to remember the name of the book.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=985.0,1043.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah, we could find it out through Google. But she was important for that writing, but also because of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. At that point in time, the archive was actually in her apartment on the Upper West Side. So people who needed to use the archive had to make an appointment and come, and her apartment was all given over to documents mostly and old sort-of failed magazines from the early kind of lesbian communities, mostly U.S. material. So she was here for like 30-plus years teaching almost only English 110, stuff like that. But the archive got some financial support and moved to its current home in Brooklyn.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1043.0,1111.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1111.0,1112.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Park Slope. And she oversaw, with the other people who were involved in running it at that point, she oversaw the move and it became much more kind of professional institutional archive than it had been before that. But I remember that I visited her, I think, in the first week the archive had been opened. She had me a tour of the new place. I don't know what year, it would've been right around '90, '91. I think it was before I became assistant chair, so I was just a faculty member. The woman who ran women's studies at the college at that point was a member of the English department named Susan Harris. Susan was married to an African Americanist scholar at Stony Brook named Billy Joe Harris. They ultimately both left for Penn State. They both got jobs at Penn State.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1112.0,1178.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: But she was an Americanist and did gender studies and feminist theory, but she was interested in African American studies, partly cause of Billy Joe's work. She was probably one of the faculty members more connected to SEEK and to the people who were doing African American scholarship there. Right? She might have been one of the reasons people like June and Jessica and Lindsay started teaching regularly in English as well as in SEEK, because Susan was our associate chair for a long period of time. But she was head of women's studies at one point, and she was asking another faculty member in the hallway -- I was part of this conversation -- whether Joan would be a good person to teach in women's studies. And this other person said \"no,\" because I think the subtext was that Joan was on the wrong side of feminism because she was in this kind of pro-sex lesbian-wing as opposed to a kind of more mainstream way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1178.0,1264.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Right? And so it was this funny conversation that happened in front of me, and I knew Joan's work, but I hadn't met her at college yet at this point. And I said, \"I thought she would be great in women's studies,\" but actually she never got to teach women's studies. So that was kind-of stopped. But again -- I don't know the exact year, but early in the 90s -- I had just been appointed to the faculty in English at the grad center to teach medieval studies, but also to teach queer theory and gender studies. And the then-head of the English program at the grad center, this guy Joe Wirick [phonetic] wanted to offer a course on lesbian and gay literature, and he wanted Joan to teach it, but because she didn't have a PhD, there were institutional barriers to her teaching it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1264.0,1332.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: So he asked me if I would team-teach this course at the grad center with Joan. And we did that. And at that point, I got to know Joan probably best of all of the people, but mostly because we taught this semester-long course together. So like' 93 would be my guess.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1332.0,1352.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1352.0,1352.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: And that gave her an opportunity to do a very different kind of teaching than she got to do. And then I think a few times she also taught upper level Lit classes in the English department, but probably less regularly than June or Jessica or Lindsay, because she didn't have the PhD.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1352.0,1375.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1375.0,1377.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1377.0,1378.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: So could you tell me more -- I'm kind of interested in the difficulties that English teachers at SEEK had with only getting to teach courses that were not outside of their expertise, but --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1378.0,1392.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah. Pretty basic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1392.0,1394.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Yeah. So teaching that. You mentioned earlier that you, as a tenured professor, would review a person's course while they're teaching it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1394.0,1407.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1407.0,1407.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Did you have those experiences in the late 80s, early 90s for SEEK?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1407.0,1412.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah. I observed Joan's teaching, I remember that. I'm pretty sure I observed June and Jessica and Cicely too at various points. In classes they were teaching in SEEK so English 110 or sometimes the course that follows that up, which has changed over the years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1412.0,1440.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1440.0,1440.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1440.0,1442.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Yeah. And so what was it like watching over those courses?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1442.0,1446.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: It was great. All of all of them that I saw in the classroom were great teachers and really quite clearly dedicated to doing that kind of teaching, and had all kinds of really good strategies for getting students who might not have really loved spending four hours a week working on writing to keep involved in it. So, so yeah. And it was good for me because I was teaching that kind of course, not for SEEK students primarily, but in English for the whole diverse group of non-SEEK Queens students. I had taught first-year writing as a graduate student, but there was a different system for doing that. So doing those kinds of observations for people generally like SEEK, but also just English as well, often part-time faculty or colleagues who were pre-tenure. You learn a lot just -- I still do. Right? I mean, I've been teaching at Queens for 30, however many years. 1988 makes 32 years now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1446.0,1543.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1543.0,1546.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: And I'm looking forward to doing this observation tomorrow because it reminds you of how hard it is to do that kind of work, right? Just the work of any classroom. Well, you're always able to learn new strategies for approaching things, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1546.0,1569.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Yeah. Could you give an example of the difficulties of doing that kind of work?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1569.0,1572.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Well, one thing, right? You want to be teaching complicated, say readings, but students may not have much experience reading complicated things or much patience for them. And so just, sometimes you have a group of students who were supposed to have read like 50 pages of a novel and come in and they made through the first 10, and you have to figure out how you're still gonna hold class and get them focused on what you wanted to focus on with those 50 pages. But also how to motivate them to not just stop and leave it there, but actually to catch up and get through stuff, right? So people like Joan and June and Jessica were really good at coming in and reminding students that there were some interesting things happening even in these difficult texts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1572.0,1649.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: They would often have students read stuff aloud in class just to make sure the text is right there. You're not just assuming everyone's read it when they haven't necessarily read it carefully and with understanding. Just simple strategies like that for getting everyone involved in a conversation, right? Like having students write for a few minutes in answer to a question so that they actually have a text that they've produced themselves. And then just going round and having everyone read it. So even students who aren't confident that they have something to say, actually have something to say, and lets a student who would never raise their hand --right? -- is able to get their voice out into the classroom and then maybe is more likely to raise their hand later on. Basic things, but really important.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1649.0,1722.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: What history of SEEK did you learn when you were there in the 80s? I know that you mentioned that they felt second-class, and this is a theme that's been coming through all the oral histories.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1722.0,1736.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1736.0,1740.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: When you got in there, was this discussed of how they were treated at that time and prior?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1740.0,1747.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah, that's a good question. I'd say even when I became involved in administering the department and doing course scheduling, so the early 90s, it wasn't really ever made clear to me what SEEK was -- because I'm on the English side of things, right? And I've maybe met June and Jessica by this point, and I'm about to meet Joan and I know these names and I've heard them described as SEEK faculty, but I don't really necessarily know what that means. No one on the English side of things was particularly concerned with what was happening in SEEK, right? Which is part of the divide. I mean, the divide was real, right? So English had its own problems.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1747.0,1811.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: In a single year, in the 1990s, we had 12 faculty members retire because there was an early retirement incentive that the state had put forward to deal with a budget crisis. And three of those faculty members were in SEEK and English. I think that's when Lindsay retired, but the English faculty and the chair didn't really pay attention to the departure of the SEEK people because it didn't affect the department's core mission. Right? SEEK was a kind of separate entity. So yeah. And that's true now too, right? I mean, we have a couple of members of our department now who -- I think they're lecturers. After Jessica retired, I don't know if we have any professorial people -- I'm a little out of the administrative side of things now -- who are primarily in SEEK, but Chastity Whitaker and Ahktar Khan are are appointed in English, but primarily in SEEK.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1811.0,1900.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Both of them do or have consistently taught English and non-SEEK courses as well. So that's kind of continued, but they don't tend to come to English department meetings. English doesn't necessarily know, except if Norka [Blackman-Richards, SEEK Director] calls up with a problem that's happening in SEEK, even with the faculty members who are primarily English faculty members. So the person I'm observing tomorrow is a part-time person teaching English courses at SEEK. I've never met her. Before I was asked to observe her, I hadn't heard her name. I don't know if she's really new or it's just that our paths haven't crossed. Right. So, that division really is still there, I think. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1900.0,1951.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: And, I guess in the early 90s, you had Frank Franklin, and do you remember what he was like?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1951.0,1962.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah, I do. Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1962.0,1965.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: [both laugh]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1965.0,1966.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: I mean, I worked fairly closely with Frank when I was chair, so that was just for two years, like '96 to '98. But even before that, we had a lot of contact because I was doing scheduling. He was a very friendly presence. People respected and liked him. I'm not sure he was as hands-on and proactive in dealing with problems as he might have been. Right. So I don't know if anyone else had this sense, but you'll have one person who said something like this. I just had the sense that he was a little averse to getting involved in any kinda confrontation or fight. And so, like if something that might be bad for SEEK as a program was happening, he would try to deal with it, but he always dealt with it -- and maybe this was a good thing -- he always dealt with it in a non-confrontational way. But I sometimes felt like he could have stood his ground a bit more firmly than he did. We always worked well together. I liked him. And, again, I think the faculty were happy to have him take on the institute. Right? I don't think the faculty wanted to be having to argue the case for the SEEK program with the institution. They were happy to have him as the person who did that for them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=1966.0,2088.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Which is much of what Legacy Director basically has to do?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2088.0,2092.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2092.0,2094.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Like constantly advocate for the program.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2094.0,2096.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2096.0,2108.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: I guess there was a transition from Frank Franklin to Norka [Blackman-Richards], so --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2108.0,2111.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2111.0,2112.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: -- what is it like working with Norka now?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2112.0,2114.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2114.0,2115.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: And the SEEK program today?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2115.0,2118.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: I've only done that, really, the one year when I was acting chair. So that was 2015-16 and I think Norka is terrific. I think, there always are a lot of problems at Queens, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2118.0,2140.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2140.0,2140.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: No matter where you're situated, but certainly SEEK has had to save itself a a lot of times. I think Norka's really a great presence. All my interactions with her, which have been mostly about very mundane things, like, if suddenly two of the people who were supposed to teach part-time classes at SEEK disappear and Norka's kind-of pool of regular part-time faculty has been exhausted, she would call and see if we had someone who was teaching an non-SEEK English 110, who we could recommend to do a SEEK English 110. So those kinds of staffing kinds of issues. But, I think she's been terrific. I think she has great energy. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2140.0,2204.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Could you discuss some of the budgetary issues that Queens College and the program had to go through? Because you alluded to it with the retirement.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2204.0,2214.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah. I mean, in the 90s there were a number of years when the state was saving money, right? Or the state budget was being cut in one way or another, and that meant cuts to CUNY. And there were two or three different years in the 90s when the state decided the way it would partly handle the CUNY cuts was to make a pretty generous early retirement offer to faculty. I forget exactly what it was, but it if you were over 50 -- so it was a fairly low cutoff -- and had been X number of years at the university, you were eligible and it gave you something like a half year's salary plus a better pension deal than you probably would've got if you just retired, right, without being part of the incentive.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2214.0,2279.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: So in the first year of that, a big chunk of our faculty -- When I came to Queens, the faculty in English, including SEEK faculty, was probably like 70 people. And by like 1996, it was more like 45. So, full-time faculty shrunk really quickly. And it was through these early retirement incentives. The real problem with them was that people took them who weren't the people you would want to leave. So it wasn't the 80-year-old person who'd been teaching at the college for 45 years who really should retire, who took the retirement incentive. It was someone who was like 53 and just decided it was too good to pass up. And she had other options to live out her life. She could have been an active member of the department for another 15 years, and she was suddenly gone, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2279.0,2346.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: And you had to fill in, right? You were teaching as many students, so you had to find ways of filling those people's roles. The way the university went was to part-time adjunct faculty, right, rather than replacing those people. So the 90s was a really dispiriting period in terms of budget and just the sense that things were shrinking. I'd say it was true across the college and included SEEK maybe more sharply felt, because it always felt that it was kind of on the margin of the college's priorities. Right? And so as things are shrinking, I think that was a period when SEEK was worried that it might disappear or be dissolved. I don't know if that was true, but I think people felt that that was a danger.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2346.0,2419.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2419.0,2420.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Right. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2420.0,2421.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: And, well, this issue of part-time adjuncts is something that kind of became a trend through most universities too, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2421.0,2431.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And we think we're a little ahead of the curve, but yeah, it's become a problem pretty universally, right? There are exceptions of fairly wealthy private places who've managed not to do that because they're wealthy, right? But for the most part, yeah, even quite good, private schools have gone in that direction. It hasn't been possible to avoid it for most public schools, as the level of state funding shrinks and you have to figure out how to make that up. And one way is to ask for higher tuitions, and another way is to just cut the amount you're paying out for instruction. And one way to do that is to pay a large group of part-time people lower wages than you pay full-time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2431.0,2503.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: And another question I want to ask you is that: there's been this counter commencement that's happened through SEEK where they have their own program for graduating students. Can you speak to that in any way?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2503.0,2523.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah, I don't know much about how that's worked over the years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2523.0,2527.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2527.0,2528.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: So I wouldn't have firsthand info for you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2528.0,2533.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Okay. Okay. Joan Nestle, her name has come across, but not in the depth that you've already provided.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2533.0,2551.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah. She's around. I mean, she's not around, but she's alive.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2551.0,2556.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2556.0,2556.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: She's in Australia, I think, now. I'm not really much on Facebook, but my understanding is she's on Facebook and fairly prominently around in that social media world. But she would have lots to say about the early-ish. I mean, I don't think she would've started in the 70s probably, so she probably doesn't go quite back to '68, '69, but she would have known most of the people who went through that --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2556.0,2601.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2601.0,2602.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: -- from when she first came to the college. She used to carpool with Lindsay -- I forget, there was one other, it might have been someone not in English, but also in SEEK, so like one of the math people or something like that -- But they taught on the same days when they came in from Manhattan. I think it might have been Lindsay's car, but maybe, yeah, I dunno. Can't imagine Joan driving, but [both laugh]. She had a social life that probably was quite separate -- well, certainly was quite separate -- from Queens and from SEEK, but that kind of intersected in certain ways with the other Manhattan-based SEEK people. I think she'd have lots to tell you. So if there were some way of getting in touch with her. I haven't been in touch with her since she left New York, I haven't really kept up with her. But I know she's in Australia and I know she's alive and active, and she's still writing and publishing stuff. So, I think she'd be really interested in doing the oral history. Okay. I mean, I could be wrong, but I think she would.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2602.0,2690.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: No, it never hurts to ask.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2690.0,2695.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Have you talked to Cicely?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2695.0,2697.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Yes. So I think she's just gone through a surgery and I physically sat with her. She's fine. But I think like the, the last few things she told me is she'll get to me when she's ready to do it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2697.0,2715.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: But I didn't know that. I run into her because she's been teaching part-time on campus --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2715.0,2719.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2719.0,2720.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: -- until at least last year. And I run into her fairly frequently, but I didn't know about the surgery.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2720.0,2727.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Yeah. But she gave us about 12 VHS tapes of her recording the Stewart [unclear]. We were talking about poetry. So we're really excited to go through that. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2727.0,2741.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: That's cool.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2741.0,2745.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: It's really exciting to, to see that type of footage and really interesting to hear about this issue where the retirements. Do you think when this state enacted this, that wasn't their intention? Or maybe it was?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2745.0,2767.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: The initial legislation for the first early retirement promised that across a period of three years, all the retirees would be replaced, but then, the budget didn't allow that. It appeared at first that their intention was just give people who were earning a lot of money an opportunity to retire. And then they would be replaced with full-time people who were at the beginning of their career, but still save system money cause they would be being paid at a lower rate, but then that never was followed through on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2767.0,2805.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2805.0,2806.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: So it's hard not to see it as kind of intentional --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2806.0,2811.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Mm-hmm. \u003caffirmative\u003e.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2811.0,2811.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: -- that they were semi intentional, semi non-intentional that the effect would be shrinking the full-time faculty. And therefore if you're not gonna shrink the student body, having to shift to cheaper labor force. Right? So I think it was kind of intentional.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2811.0,2835.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: And I guess, did you notice the rise in tuition while you've been working?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2835.0,2840.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Steve Kruger: Yeah, yeah. And for many students that's cushioned because they're on financial aid. If they're on full financial aid, the higher tuition hasn't necessarily affected their ability to come to CUNY. But, certainly for students who aren't on full financial aid and still aren't economically well off, but the higher tuition's a big problem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2840.0,2882.0"},{"id":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871/transcript/62633/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Obden Mondesir: Okay. Cool. I'm gonna pause it for now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://queenslibrary.aviaryplatform.com/collections/150/collection_resources/116588/file/220871#t=2882.0,2885.35506"}]}]}]}